Don't switch maps.

[pepperonibread]

I like the idea of grandfathering the map in, as in letting games finish on the old map but only allowing games to start on the new one. But I dunno how that works from a coding standpoint, so I guess that's up to lack.

Regarding hard-to-see borders/names... no concerns of this that I can remember came up in the foundry thread, I can see the borders fine, several people I've asked in real life have had no problem with them, and the difference in color between background and border is equivalent to this:



Nevertheless, it's a legitimate concern, and I have had one person comment on how the font used makes reading a little tougher, so I assume we'll be able to strike some sort of compromise should people post concerns in the foundry thread:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=47140

jI know the foundry was working on it for a long time, but aren't there rivers of some consequence in Germany??

nope, THE RINE is a very little known river outside of towns located on it's banks within the heartland of deutschland... why include The Rhine on a map of germany? thankfully they took it out of this revamp...
whew...-0

http://cheeseperi.free.fr/Jeopardy/culture/rhine.gif

As you can see from this image, the Rhine makes it's way first along the southwest border of Germany, a place where it would just add clutter to the map. It then does cut through Germany, in the light-red area of the revamped map (Rheinhessen). But it would serve no purpose there either, as it would be cutting straight through a continent. So I think it's fair to say that to add the Rhine to the map, however important a river it is, would be a useless addition - unless you want to change the map's basic gameplay.

And that's honestly the crux of the problem (this problem, and many other issues dealing with accuracy). I'll state right out that this map isn't an accurate portrayal of Germany. However, taking into account the fact that no gameplay could be changed whatsoever, I can certainly say that this map is much more accurate than the previous Germany 1.

[TheBro]

Pep, I appreciate the work you've put into it. It's obvious that revamping maps is a thankless job because it's impossible to please everyone. The map does look cooler, but I do agree it is also more difficult to read some of the territories; the map seems more 'bunched together.'

I have never made a map, and I wouldn't be caught dead in the Foundry. Danke for the hard work, I will continue to rarely play Germany. The night is calling, I have to go. (The wolf is hungry, he runs the show.)

[the.killing.44]

it seems us CC members are being disregarded in this matter. Everytime we post our thoughts about this, one the the foundry members tells us how good the map is and how we are wrong.

It's not that you're posting your thoughts, it's that you're posting them literally a year and a half late. Let's take this into perspective: If you were to undertake a 2-year project, where you are to create a diorama. The WIP (work in progress) is available for the public to view and on which to leave input 24/7, 365 days a year. You get some positive feedback on it, and you finally finish it after years of hard work! Then, when the final project has hit the Internet and everyone can see it, you get hundreds of emails saying how much it sucks.

Now, how can you say that the public's input was disregarded when anything offered during the development process was taken into account? It's totally different when the input (read: complaints) come in after it's been done for more than a year.

.44

[jghost7]

it seems us CC members are being disregarded in this matter. Everytime we post our thoughts about this, one the the foundry members tells us how good the map is and how we are wrong.

It's not that you're posting your thoughts, it's that you're posting them literally a year and a half late. Let's take this into perspective: If you were to undertake a 2-year project, where you are to create a diorama. The WIP (work in progress) is available for the public to view and on which to leave input 24/7, 365 days a year. You get some positive feedback on it, and you finally finish it after years of hard work! Then, when the final project has hit the Internet and everyone can see it, you get hundreds of emails saying how much it sucks.

Now, how can you say that the public's input was disregarded when anything offered during the development process was taken into account? It's totally different when the input (read: complaints) come in after it's been done for more than a year.

.44

I understand that it was a long process, and at times, your work sometimes goes unappreciated. I love some of the maps very much, and am impressed with the constant work to make new ones available to us here.

I am relatively new here, and apparently the revamp started more than a year before I became a member.

I am just now getting around on the site to do more than just the games, as I think a lot of people do, so some people are not always aware of how things work or where to look. I think most come to play the games, and a lot of us are not fully informed of the full workings of the site.

That being said, however, I believe a beta test or somehow putting it out there before the switch would have been in order. When you do it that way, more people will see that it is there and be able to check it out, and thereby be able to provide you with more feedback that will be useful to the project. As it stands, it was lying in a back alley of the site til it was launched.

Telling me that I am whining a year and a half late is not going to fix things. I am saying that there is a whole continent that I cannot see anything, and another that is unclear.
It is also hard to differentiate between the two yellow continents without looking to the key.
Having the German flag colors is a cool idea in theory, but in practice, it is not working so well. And that switching maps midgame is not the best practice. Please dont take offense, this is not really a complaint, but more of an issue list with some ideas to add to the pool.

Once again, I take nothing away from the foundrys hard work and dedication to its maps and goals, I am trying to put forth my opinions, and some useful suggestions and ideas, and to clarify if there is an issue that I perceive.


J

[lgoasklucyl]

Then I invite you to visit the Map Foundry, where the Germany revamp was developed over the course of a year and a half before it was approved and loaded.

Personally, I think the new map is a quantum leap forward visually.

I have to agree with this wholeheartedly. Anyone willing to disagree that this version is far superior graphically never took a good look at the original.

[lgoasklucyl]

i play cc for fun i join the games and settings i like (as every other player)
map foundry isn't a part of cc i look at ,ever

so by writting in this forum ''why didn't we say it over the last year while we were changing it''
is a pretty poor way of addressing it
of the 20k players that play cc how many visit the map foundry??? i think i've been it twice since i started playing
and it bores me to tears,so i don't look
germany wasn't a beta map either
anyway i won't be writting about this again ,you can colour the whole map black if you like i won't be playing i again

This is the equivalent of saying "Yeah the elected official is an idiot and a disagree with everything he's done, but no I didn't vote. I have no intent on voting or voicing my opinion, but rather letting others do so then complaining about the outcome after all is said and done."

If you want a voice in maps, GO TO THE FOUNDRY. If not, don't expect your issues to mysteriously work their way into the foundry and solve themselves. It's not like the mapmaker posted the map, it sat there for a year and a half, and nothing happened. Plenty of people provided the input that brought it to this state, and none of them had these issues. If they did, it would not have escaped the foundry.

[MrBenn]

While the map looks different (read: far, far better), no actual borders have been changed, and the gameplay is still 100% the same, as has been the case with every revamp.

the same cant be said for when british isles got revamped, they changed some territs too. and added a few more in ireland..

There was an issue with the British Isles Revamp, but it was resolved very quickly after the glitch was noticed and reported (I should know, because I re-ordered the XML). The glitch was nothing to do with a change in the gameplay of the map (which has remained unchanged), but since then, we have been excruciatingly careful to ensure that the transition happens without any adverse effect on games in progress (other than the visual disorientation which will occur for people mid-way through a game on the map).

From a Foundry perspective, the Revamp map has so-far only been given Beta status, and could quite correctly be moved to the bottom of the map-finder list with the other Beta maps (which did happen with Brazil and Midgard, the other recent revamps). I can only assume that this was an oversight by lackattack, who is the only person who has the responsibility of loading maps and putting them in to live play.

If you have legitimate concerns about legibility/visibility of parts of the map, then I would encourage you to head over to the Germany Revamp Map Thread

Debate in this topic should quite rightly focus on the merits (or otherwise) of holding maps in some sort of limbo before a revamp is launched. For what it's worth, I think it's a valid suggestion, although it is worth bearing in mind that the oldest active game on the map was started in February, and doesn't seem to show any sign of ending soon...

[jammyjames]

While the map looks different (read: far, far better), no actual borders have been changed, and the gameplay is still 100% the same, as has been the case with every revamp.

the same cant be said for when british isles got revamped, they changed some territs too. and added a few more in ireland..

There was an issue with the British Isles Revamp, but it was resolved very quickly after the glitch was noticed and reported (I should know, because I re-ordered the XML). The glitch was nothing to do with a change in the gameplay of the map (which has remained unchanged), but since then, we have been excruciatingly careful to ensure that the transition happens without any adverse effect on games in progress (other than the visual disorientation which will occur for people mid-way through a game on the map).

From a Foundry perspective, the Revamp map has so-far only been given Beta status, and could quite correctly be moved to the bottom of the map-finder list with the other Beta maps (which did happen with Brazil and Midgard, the other recent revamps). I can only assume that this was an oversight by lackattack, who is the only person who has the responsibility of loading maps and putting them in to live play.

If you have legitimate concerns about legibility/visibility of parts of the map, then I would encourage you to head over to the Germany Revamp Map Thread

Debate in this topic should quite rightly focus on the merits (or otherwise) of holding maps in some sort of limbo before a revamp is launched. For what it's worth, I think it's a valid suggestion, although it is worth bearing in mind that the oldest active game on the map was started in February, and doesn't seem to show any sign of ending soon...

also noticed this the other day, i think dumfries and galloway, or the territ to the right of it, will not let you advance with clickable maps, just a heads up

[Johnny Rockets]

I'ts hard for the general public to follow or get involved with the map foundry threads as it's a lot of shop talk and unless map production is your passion, it might as well be the Queensbury Heights Hedgehog Conservation Society.

That being said, without the foundry and it's dedicated craftsmen this site would be a pale shadow of what it is now.

However, you can't expect to release ANYTHING without subjecting it to a field test and truly taking feedback from those trials to heart REGUARDLESS of the the time and effort spent.


So please do not inform those who play the map on a regular basis what progress this is or how better it will be. While your learned opinion is of value, this is not your place. The map is finished when it's a popular playing success. That is determined over time by the users, not from the creators who fall in love with their work.

I'm glad you pointed out that this is still considered Beta, and that further refinements are to come. Too bad about the loading error, but if this was pointed out sooner it would have silenced a lot of critics to be sure.



Johnny Rockets

[sully800]

[...] The map is interesting if you remove the facts that you cant see anything but troop numbers in prussia, and everything in nord deutschland is not clear.

[...] Since the concern was never levied before you can't expect it would be solved for your particular color blindness. However the fact that you can't see the borders is a very real concern and one that should be addressed, because that is a problem that the color blind codes cannot solve (though grease monkey can, just not in a clean manner).

I don't think this is a case of color blindness. This is not about color, rather it's about brightness/contrast, which i don't believe poses very much of a problem for the color blind as long as lighting conditions are good.
I could be wrong, but wouldn't this have to be related to faulty display settings?

Point taken, but I think it must be something to do with the individual if they cannot distinguish between the font/borders and the background in Prussia. I can those lines as clearly as the lines in any other region on the map. In fact I just turned the contrast on my monitor all the up and down as far as it would go and in both cases I could see the lines perfectly (I couldn't tell any difference between the yellow and the red mind you, but the lines in Prussia were no problem).

My point is that some people can see these regions very clearly, and I would assume that if someone who couldn't see them had weighed in earlier it would have been fixed long ago. I understand that not everyone is interested in maps as I said before, but if that is the case you unfortunately face some unexpected surprises like this. It can be fixed so everyone can see the borders but it won't happen immediately.

As for the topic at hand, I also think it makes sense to have a slower transition to the new graphics on a map. There should probably be an announcement made when a revamp reaches final forge (and probably when a revamp is first considered). Then if there are any large concerns they can be addressed during the forging process and before the switch takes place. If you still choose not to look at a map before it is switched then there is no one to blame but yourself for not taking the time to give feedback on the map.

[lackattack]

Actually I intentionally did not load the Germany 2 as Beta. I figured it would confuse people who wanted to play a Germany game if the map suddenly dissappeared from its usual alphabetical spot. But after reading all this controversy, which reminds me that REVAMPS tend to be very controversial, I think I made a mistake. I'm going to set it as Beta right now.

As for not changing the map mid-game (making a REVAMP apply only to new games) - that would either require significant coding or splitting our Germany games into two maps for a very long time which has some undesireable side effects. So although I agree it can be annoying for a map to drastically change mid-game, there is unfortunately not much worth doing about it.

[jghost7]

[...] The map is interesting if you remove the facts that you cant see anything but troop numbers in prussia, and everything in nord deutschland is not clear.

[...] Since the concern was never levied before you can't expect it would be solved for your particular color blindness. However the fact that you can't see the borders is a very real concern and one that should be addressed, because that is a problem that the color blind codes cannot solve (though grease monkey can, just not in a clean manner).

I don't think this is a case of color blindness. This is not about color, rather it's about brightness/contrast, which i don't believe poses very much of a problem for the color blind as long as lighting conditions are good.
I could be wrong, but wouldn't this have to be related to faulty display settings?

Point taken, but I think it must be something to do with the individual if they cannot distinguish between the font/borders and the background in Prussia. I can those lines as clearly as the lines in any other region on the map. In fact I just turned the contrast on my monitor all the up and down as far as it would go and in both cases I could see the lines perfectly (I couldn't tell any difference between the yellow and the red mind you, but the lines in Prussia were no problem).

My point is that some people can see these regions very clearly, and I would assume that if someone who couldn't see them had weighed in earlier it would have been fixed long ago. I understand that not everyone is interested in maps as I said before, but if that is the case you unfortunately face some unexpected surprises like this. It can be fixed so everyone can see the borders but it won't happen immediately.

As for the topic at hand, I also think it makes sense to have a slower transition to the new graphics on a map. There should probably be an announcement made when a revamp reaches final forge (and probably when a revamp is first considered). Then if there are any large concerns they can be addressed during the forging process and before the switch takes place. If you still choose not to look at a map before it is switched then there is no one to blame but yourself for not taking the time to give feedback on the map.

It may be, i tried the contrast and brightness thing and went into my control panel and fiddled with it too... no matter what I do, I am unable to see those trouble spots. Maybe my computer sucks, or my monitor sucks, or something, but I just cant see those areas. On most maps I do not have this problem. I think I found it once before on SouthAmerica, where there are 3 bonus areas that are hard to see or worse. I guess some can see and some cant...as I am not the only one with the issue.

I like the germany map, so I hope these things can be addressed relatively quickly. I have 2 games on this map, and I will have to wing it until something is done. Thanks for listening,
J

[sully800]

It may be, i tried the contrast and brightness thing and went into my control panel and fiddled with it too... no matter what I do, I am unable to see those trouble spots. Maybe my computer sucks, or my monitor sucks, or something, but I just cant see those areas. On most maps I do not have this problem. I think I found it once before on SouthAmerica, where there are 3 bonus areas that are hard to see or worse. I guess some can see and some cant...as I am not the only one with the issue.

I like the germany map, so I hope these things can be addressed relatively quickly. I have 2 games on this map, and I will have to wing it until something is done. Thanks for listening,
J

If you are using BOB, you can put your mouse over the territories which will highlight which other armies they connect to. If that is not an option you can look at the XML and record the connections which would be a pain to play with but it would be better than guessing. I definitely see how changing a map mid game can solve problems, I just think both sides can play a part in preventing these issues. If there is some way to better announce revamps to the community then there won't be such a surprise to members who never go in the map foundry. And for those players it will take some effort on their part as well to actually go into the foundry and review the map before it is live.

[grandin]

[...] In fact I just turned the contrast on my monitor all the up and down as far as it would go and in both cases I could see the lines perfectly (I couldn't tell any difference between the yellow and the red mind you, but the lines in Prussia were no problem).

[...] It may be, i tried the contrast and brightness thing and went into my control panel and fiddled with it too... no matter what I do, I am unable to see those trouble spots.
J

Very high contrast + low lighting + low gamma + some fiddling around with digital vibration ---> and i get the same problem.

Give it another go. I still think it's something with your settings...

Lower the contrast, increase the lighting, increase the gamma a bit, perhaps?