Forums and Game Chat Treated Consistently

[Woodruff]

Concise description:

• The forums and the game chat are not treated consistently, as per the Community Guidelines, though they should be.

Specifics:

• I am not saying whether the forum chat should be treated more lightly or that the game chat should be controlled more strictly (though I do definitely have my personal opinion on that, of course). I am, however, saying that they should be treated equally. Currently, offenses that are precisely equal in nature result in a perma-ban for a forum violation and a third or fourth warning for a game chat violation (examples of this are readily available and can be submitted if requested). Actually, offenses that are WORSE in game chat are treated far more lightly than offenses in the forums.
• This is supposed to be a gaming site. The forums are supposed to be an after-thought. Yet, the games are not moderated at all, leaving individuals hanging when they are routinely abused by the more aggressively assinine members of the site while the forums are heavily moderated. This seems completely backward, if nothing else.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

• There will be a firm, consistent understanding for everyone about what is sanctioned and what is not.
• Individuals wanting only to play games (again, the point of the site) are not subjected to abusive players who would not be tolerated in other (allegedly less important) places on the site.

[Timminz]

The one issue that comes to mind immediately, is that game chat is a much more private venue than the forums. It's somewhere between PMs and the forums, in that respect. PMs are almost completely private (by definition), and as such, almost anything goes. The forums are completely public, and the rules are (and should be, in my opinion) enforced more strictly. With game chat falling between the 2, in terms of public/privateness, I feel that they should be treated as such, with the guidelines enforced accordingly.

Also, it's far easier for the staff to monitor the forums, whereas games would have to be dealt with on a complaint basis, and I don't think we need to give people more reasons to complain about things that they could deal with themselves (foe list).

I agree with the sentiment about consistency, but I feel that this is not the proper method for approaching the issue.

[Woodruff]

The one issue that comes to mind immediately, is that game chat is a much more private venue than the forums. It's somewhere between PMs and the forums, in that respect. PMs are almost completely private (by definition), and as such, almost anything goes. The forums are completely public, and the rules are (and should be, in my opinion) enforced more strictly. With game chat falling between the 2, in terms of public/privateness, I feel that they should be treated as such, with the guidelines enforced accordingly.
Also, it's far easier for the staff to monitor the forums, whereas games would have to be dealt with on a complaint basis, and I don't think we need to give people more reasons to complain about things that they could deal with themselves (foe list).
I agree with the sentiment about consistency, but I feel that this is not the proper method for approaching the issue.

You say it's more private, and I suppose it is just in sheer numbers, yet it's not all that private either in the sense that there is no limited number of folks who can join those games (other than the private games, of course). As well, it's far more likely, in my opinon, that a newcomer to the website is going to be abused in gamechat than they will in the forums (because most folks don't make it to the forums until they've been on the site for a little while). Yet the focus of abuse seems to be on the forums. This doesn't make any sense at all from a business perspective.

The codeblues and JaMarcus's of the website run rampant in gamechat while pretty harmless statements in the forums bring on perma-bans.

So if this isn't the proper method for approaching the issue, what do you believe would be?

[PLAYER57832]

I agree that in-game chat is fairly private. A good number of people consider "badmouthing" each other, etc to be part of the game. I am one who (as you probably realize) does not use or appreciate foul language, but I would not even report anyone who uses it unless it were a good deal more than language (threats, etc -- I can only think of 2 cases in ALL my games!). Under the old feedback, I would sometimes give a nuetral with a note that "this person uses foul language excessively" or some such. Now, of course, we have no such option.

As for kids seeing it.. again, as mom I have 2 thoughts. The first is that the chances of someone randomly finding a game with swearing is much lower than say, reading a thread with it inside. I don't think that many people really do go through other people's games, never mind find the ones that swear in chat. If you are playing someone, then just foe them and you will never have to play them again. As many people have said, there are not many words that kids today don't already know. The thing is that if they don't hear people around them using them, find it accepted, then they won't use the language. Trying to keep them from it just doesn't work today.


I think a better option would be to allow something like a "flame game", where all sorts of language, dirty tricks, etc would be allowed. However, I believe this is not something CC wants.

The other option sort of already exists. That is to join a clan with people who follow certain rules and only play with them (or mostly anyway).

[Woodruff]

The first is that the chances of someone randomly finding a game with swearing is much lower than say, reading a thread with it inside.

I would absolutely disagree with that. Due to the...harshness with which the ban-hammer has been wielded in the last several months, I don't see all that much swearing in the forums, quite honestly. I see it in game-chat in almost every game. And really, as I said in my initial post, I'm not necessarily looking for the game-chat to be moderated more sternly, I'm looking for it to be moderated MORE EQUALLY to the forums (which might mean that the forums aren't moderated as sternly). It seems patently ridiculous to me that the two are not moderated at the same level.

I don't think that many people really do go through other people's games, never mind find the ones that swear in chat.

Oh, I agree with that. I'm not speaking of someone going around looking for it...I'm speaking of someone having it foisted on them.

If you are playing someone, then just foe them and you will never have to play them again.

Which is fine for me, but it doesn't do much for the newbie who gets abused by a codeblue or JaMarcus. I'll have them foe'd, but they wouldn't make me leave the site now anyway. However, if I had faced either of them early on in my time here, I could easily have presumed that was "the norm" and left.

As many people have said, there are not many words that kids today don't already know. The thing is that if they don't hear people around them using them, find it accepted, then they won't use the language. Trying to keep them from it just doesn't work today.

Again, you seem to have missed my intent. My intent is not NECESSARILY to monitor the gamechat more closely (though that would be my personal preference of the two). My intent is to see that it is monitored to the same degree as the forums are (not necessarily CURRENTLY, but bringing it in line with whatever the two should be determined to be at). Abuse is abuse. It frankly kills me that just barely insulting someone in the forums brings the ban-hammer when THREATENING SOMEONE'S LIFE doesn't bring anything more than MAYBE a warning (I had this happen to me, I took it seriously for real reasons I won't disclose here, and I was told that was just tough shit by Twill). How does that make ANY sense at all?

The other option sort of already exists. That is to join a clan with people who follow certain rules and only play with them (or mostly anyway).

That'd make me quit more quickly than anything...it sounds dreadfully boring not being able to play new people.

[PLAYER57832]

If you are playing someone, then just foe them and you will never have to play them again.

Which is fine for me, but it doesn't do much for the newbie who gets abused by a codeblue or JaMarcus. I'll have them foe'd, but they wouldn't make me leave the site anyone. However, if I had faced either of them early on in my time here, I could easily have presumed that was "the norm" and left.

I, too, see this as a problem, but I am not sure that the current warnings/ban system are the right way to deal with it. I would prefer to see some limitation on who may play new people.

As many people have said, there are not many words that kids today don't already know. The thing is that if they don't hear people around them using them, find it accepted, then they won't use the language. Trying to keep them from it just doesn't work today.

Again, you seem to have missed my intent. My intent is not NECESSARILY to monitor the gamechat more closely (though that would be my personal preference of the two). My intent is to see that it is monitored to the same degree as the forums are (not necessarily CURRENTLY, but bringing it in line with whatever the two should be determined to be at). Abuse is abuse. It frankly kills me that just barely insulting someone in the forums brings the ban-hammer when THREATENING SOMEONE'S LIFE doesn't bring anything more than MAYBE a warning (I had this happen to me, I took it seriously for real reasons I won't disclose here, and I was told that was just tough shit by Twill). How does that make ANY sense at all?[/quote]
I had a similar thing happen to me. "Fortunately" the guy was busted as a multi, but I do think CC takes some issues far too lightly and others.. far too seriously. Why should someone who threatens to kill you get a slap or nothing at all, while someone who just disagrees with a mod gets a serious reprimand, leading to a ban?

However, I am not sure that is a chat versus forum issue. I think it is a general standards issue.

Language itself, though is a touchy subject. Some people just don't know how to communicate (or don't want to) without swearing. It is one reason I put "mom" in my job description. I found that quite a few people, even who might not be that nice to others have been pleasant to me. (That, and I got a bit tired of everyone assuming I was a guy .. now I can tell who has and has not seen my profile)

The other option sort of already exists. That is to join a clan with people who follow certain rules and only play with them (or mostly anyway).

That'd make me quit more quickly than anything...it sounds dreadfully boring not being able to play new people.[/quote]

Actually, I think this is happening already. It is one reason why I suggested training games, but that idea met with a resounding flop.

I think you have some good points. I am not sure it is really about having Chat and the Forums treated the same, though. I think it is more about just having some tighter rules for chat. I also would like to see a "use foul language" check box in the ratings.

[azezzo]

Concise description:

• The forums and the game chat are not treated consistently, as per the Community Guidelines, though they should be.

Specifics:

• I am not saying whether the forum chat should be treated more lightly or that the game chat should be controlled more strictly (though I do definitely have my personal opinion on that, of course). I am, however, saying that they should be treated equally. Currently, offenses that are precisely equal in nature result in a perma-ban for a forum violation and a third or fourth warning for a game chat violation (examples of this are readily available and can be submitted if requested). Actually, offenses that are WORSE in game chat are treated far more lightly than offenses in the forums.
• This is supposed to be a gaming site. The forums are supposed to be an after-thought. Yet, the games are not moderated at all, leaving individuals hanging when they are routinely abused by the more aggressively assinine members of the site while the forums are heavily moderated. This seems completely backward, if nothing else.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

• There will be a firm, consistent understanding for everyone about what is sanctioned and what is not.
• Individuals wanting only to play games (again, the point of the site) are not subjected to abusive players who would not be tolerated in other (allegedly less important) places on the site.

funny that you would say,"The forums are supposed to be an after-thought." Yet your forum post count exceeds the # of games that you have played.

as far as the consistency issue, c.c. imo needs to back off, they need to go back to the more liberal stance that they used to have, that was written into the rules and guidelines. Simply foe the offensive individual, and you wont have to read their posts, in game chat or the forums, this stance that they had taken works just fine for me.

[Woodruff]

Concise description:

• The forums and the game chat are not treated consistently, as per the Community Guidelines, though they should be.

Specifics:

• I am not saying whether the forum chat should be treated more lightly or that the game chat should be controlled more strictly (though I do definitely have my personal opinion on that, of course). I am, however, saying that they should be treated equally. Currently, offenses that are precisely equal in nature result in a perma-ban for a forum violation and a third or fourth warning for a game chat violation (examples of this are readily available and can be submitted if requested). Actually, offenses that are WORSE in game chat are treated far more lightly than offenses in the forums.
• This is supposed to be a gaming site. The forums are supposed to be an after-thought. Yet, the games are not moderated at all, leaving individuals hanging when they are routinely abused by the more aggressively assinine members of the site while the forums are heavily moderated. This seems completely backward, if nothing else.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

• There will be a firm, consistent understanding for everyone about what is sanctioned and what is not.
• Individuals wanting only to play games (again, the point of the site) are not subjected to abusive players who would not be tolerated in other (allegedly less important) places on the site.

funny that you would say,"The forums are supposed to be an after-thought." Yet your forum post count exceeds the # of games that you have played.

It's funny that you'd think it was relevant to bring that up, since I ROUTINELY have 80+ games going at any one time. I currently have 47 games active because I've had to "slow down" (at 47 games) because school is getting ready to start back up.

I have about 200 more posts than I have games completed...given the time that a game takes to get completed versus the time a post takes, that shouldn't really be surprising.

As a comparison, you currently have a whopping 8 active games. Next time do a little research so you don't come off looking stupid.

[azezzo]

WHAT?

by your twisted logic then, i should have like 6000 forum posts, how is that important? You my friend just like to hear yourself talk, you for some reason seem to have the need to post in damn near every thread, and not once, but multiple times, just how self important do you feel? What are you over compensating for? Please free up some server space by stop trolling the forums.

[Woodruff]

WHAT?

by your twisted logic then, i should have like 6000 forum posts, how is that important? You my friend just like to hear yourself talk, you for some reason seem to have the need to post in damn near every thread, and not once, but multiple times, just how self important do you feel? What are you over compensating for? Please free up some server space by stop trolling the forums.

You seem to have some sort of a personal grudge against me. I suggest you get over it. It'll save you a lot of frustration.

If you feel like I'm trolling, please report me. The mods need a laugh from time to time too.

[Artimis]

I can see where this is going. No, no, no, no and NO! In game chat trash talk is expected, I get my jollies when I'm both dishing it out and receiving it. Don't go making more work for the Mods by proposing game chat filter, that was previous discussed in this thread and the poll shows the concept to be unpopular at best.

[Woodruff]

I can see where this is going. No, no, no, no and NO! In game chat trash talk is expected, I get my jollies when I'm both dishing it out and receiving it. Don't go making more work for the Mods by proposing game chat filter, that was previous discussed in this thread and the poll shows the concept to be unpopular at best.

I'm not at all proposing a game chat filter. Game chat filters are next to useless, in my opinion.

[PLAYER57832]

I can see where this is going. No, no, no, no and NO! In game chat trash talk is expected, I get my jollies when I'm both dishing it out and receiving it. Don't go making more work for the Mods by proposing game chat filter, that was previous discussed in this thread and the poll shows the concept to be unpopular at best.

I'm not at all proposing a game chat filter. Game chat filters are next to useless, in my opinion.

No, but it does seem that you are proposing that game chat be agressively moderated, or am I misunderstanding?

[Woodruff]

I can see where this is going. No, no, no, no and NO! In game chat trash talk is expected, I get my jollies when I'm both dishing it out and receiving it. Don't go making more work for the Mods by proposing game chat filter, that was previous discussed in this thread and the poll shows the concept to be unpopular at best.

I'm not at all proposing a game chat filter. Game chat filters are next to useless, in my opinion.

No, but it does seem that you are proposing that game chat be agressively moderated, or am I misunderstanding?

<sigh> You are misunderstanding. In fact, one of my responses to you in this thread already explained your misunderstanding, so please just go read the very first sentence under "specifics" in the original post.

[azezzo]

ok woodruff, I honestly am not trying to be antagonistic here, but the 1st sentence you posted follows,

Concise description:

* The forums and the game chat are not treated consistently, as per the Community Guidelines, though they should be

so maybe i dont understand either, the forum and game chat are 2 different animals, just as the game chat and the old feedback system were 2 different animals, I bring that up because even though someones feedback was visable to the public, as the game chat is, the mods felt that it was ok to flame someone in the game chat, but decided it was not ok to do it in their feedback, i forget the specifics.

if what you meant was that simply the mods are not enforcing the guidelines consistently in the forums, then i would agree, but they still do have a pretty liberal stance on game chat as i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong.

but for my 2 cents worth, i think the mods should go back to a much more liberal stance on the forums as well, as it used to be.

[oVo]

Concise description:

• The forums and the game chat are not treated consistently, as per the Community Guidelines, though they should be.

Specifics:

• I am not saying whether the forum chat should be treated more lightly or that the game chat should be controlled more strictly (though I do definitely have my personal opinion on that, of course). I am, however, saying that they should be treated equally. Currently, offenses that are precisely equal in nature result in a perma-ban for a forum violation and a third or fourth warning for a game chat violation (examples of this are readily available and can be submitted if requested). Actually, offenses that are WORSE in game chat are treated far more lightly than offenses in the forums.
• This is supposed to be a gaming site. The forums are supposed to be an after-thought. Yet, the games are not moderated at all, leaving individuals hanging when they are routinely abused by the more aggressively assinine members of the site while the forums are heavily moderated. This seems completely backward, if nothing else.

This will improve the following aspects of the site:

• There will be a firm, consistent understanding for everyone about what is sanctioned and what is not.
• Individuals wanting only to play games (again, the point of the site) are not subjected to abusive players who would not be tolerated in other (allegedly less important) places on the site.

With 19,000+ players and over a million games played I perceive the game chats to be more self regulated than the forums. Basically for the obvious situation that game chats are secluded while the forum is more public and accesible to read.

By self regulated I mean that most perceived abuses are reported by players and then checked out by moderators. This simply means it is easier for someone to get away with certain types of verbal abuse in game chats as such BS may never be reported. This might be perceived as uneven, but the difference may only be if someone was bummed out enough to even report it.

Understanding what isn't sanctioned by this site is made very clear with WARNINGS. If anyone has doubts about what is cool with CC and what isn't? A WARNING is not a subtle hint, it's a definite caution that you need to watch your step.

[Woodruff]

With 19,000+ players and over a million games played I perceive the game chats to be more self regulated than the forums. Basically for the obvious situation that game chats are secluded while the forum is more public and accesible to read.
By self regulated I mean that most perceived abuses are reported by players and then checked out by moderators. This simply means it is easier for someone to get away with certain types of verbal abuse in game chats as such BS may never be reported. This might be perceived as uneven, but the difference may only be if someone was bummed out enough to even report it.

But that's the problem. REPORTED (via the C&A forum) of clear abuse by individuals such as codeblue and JaMarcus are responded to with only a simple warning (for the 4th and more reports of the same) whereas truly not-even-borderline-they're-so-tame statements in the forums at large end up with a permaban. That simply doesn't make any sense to me, given that new recruits are far more likely to encounter a codeblue or JaMarcus type than they are to wander into the forums. Shouldn't we want to avoid having our new recruits think that such gamechat behavior is "the norm" and thus leave for it before they had a chance to recognize that such behavior ISN'T the norm?

ok woodruff, I honestly am not trying to be antagonistic here, but the 1st sentence you posted follows,
Concise description:
* The forums and the game chat are not treated consistently, as per the Community Guidelines, though they should be
so maybe i dont understand either, the forum and game chat are 2 different animals, just as the game chat and the old feedback system were 2 different animals

The only reason I bring up the Community Guidelines there is because they do specifically lay out that:
"Common sense prevails - if you are intentionally or continually making this community less enjoyable for others, you're going to be removed from it. It's that simple. This applies to any part of the site where interaction takes place; in Forums, Private Messages, Live Chat and Game Chat."

This would seem to imply a consistent view toward at least abusive behavior within gamechat and the forums. Yet, that's far from what we have when forum posts that can be described as (barely) mean result in permabans while clear and repetitive abuse (I'm not talking about swearing...I'm talking about abuse) in gamechat results in multiple warnings for the same individual and no further actions.

If a specific action is "intentionally or continually making this community less enjoyable for others" in the forums, then the same should be true in gamechat. Likewise, if a specific action is NOT considered such in gamechat, then it seems ridiculous that lesser offenses in the forums (never mind equal offenses) would be considered to be such. There should be consistency, as stated in the Community Guidelines.

if what you meant was that simply the mods are not enforcing the guidelines consistently in the forums, then i would agree, but they still do have a pretty liberal stance on game chat as i understand it, correct me if i'm wrong.

No, I wasn't referring to consistency across the forums (though I agree with you on that), I was referring to consistency between gamechat and forum posts.

And again, just to be perfectly clear...I'm not saying NECESSARILY that gamechat should be moderated to the same level as the forums CURRENTLY are...only that the gamechat and forums should be moderated to the SAME LEVEL (whatever the level is determined to be).

And for what it's worth, I didn't see your post as antagonistic at all (which I greatly appreciate, thank you). Disagreeing with me doesn't make you antagonistic. <smile> I consider healthy disagreement to be extremely important in almost any endeavor.