TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

[cairnswk]

...
Why are some of the ship names so blurry? eg. Bucantaure (sp.)

they have coloured offsets on the background as the alternative to a glow around them which didn't look good either.
I thought this might look better, alas.

[oaktown]

ooh, fastposted while i was editing...

edit: the more I look it over (looking at the small map) a lot of the text really strains my eyes. The text on the top left sail, for example - so light it gets lost. And I have trouble focusing on the text in the left hand legend (in which you intermittently use punctuation).

"Same Side between French and Spanish via row boats only" doesn't make any sense... where's the verb? What can they do? On fact, the entire legend is unclear... there has to be a more succinct way to explain that some ships attack each other (via lines, connections, or row boats) and some ships bombard each other (via guns, which still isn't clear to me on the map... Principe de Asturias has three cannons and therefore can bombard three things?).

[cairnswk]

...
Why are some of the ship names so blurry? eg. Bucantaure (sp.)

they have coloured offsets on the background as the alternative to a glow around them which didn't look good either.
I thought this might look better, alas.

I'm wondering if these now look better.

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

the blurriness is gone from those ship names. Better, but the Bucantaure and Royal Sovereign names still don't fit with the rest. In my opinion the Principe de Asturias is the best looking title. And is it my color-challenged eyes or do the british ships not have the outer glow that the others do? And Victory and Royal Sovereign are both British flagships, yet their have very different styles... I'm not following the system.

I figured out something that threw me about the left hand side legend: the title "Boarding Ships -" has sub-sections (Opposing Sides, Same Side, Same Nation) but Bombardments is NOT a subsection of Boarding Ships even though it is written in the same size text as the subsections and does not look like its own title. If you somehow gave the Bombardments section some space from the ship boarding descriptions it would set things straight in the reader's mind.

Redoubtable and Te'Me'rie - are they "locked together"? They're awfully close but not actually touching. And if they aren't locked, can they bombard each other?

About those bombardments: I predict that this is going to be the element of the map that sparks the most comments/controversy after the map goes live... "I was holding Swiftsure and needed to bombard Belleisle to take out a player, but I couldn't... why not?" Or can Swiftsure bombard Belleisle? Can Principe de Asturias bombard all the way over to Thunderer, and vice-versa? Indomptable to S.T.? Because there's a clear line of sight yet S.T. doesn't have guns to hit Indomptable back? This is a map that will be really difficult to play without BOB because otherwise I'm not sure how you'll know what you have to defend yourself from.

[cairnswk]

the blurriness is gone from those ship names. Better, but the Bucantaure and Royal Sovereign names still don't fit with the rest. In my opinion the Principe de Asturias is the best looking title. And is it my color-challenged eyes or do the british ships not have the outer glow that the others do? And Victory and Royal Sovereign are both British flagships, yet their have very different styles... I'm not following the system.

I have checked the names and they are all fine with the rest. They're all the same structure. There is no outer glow to the British Ships. And both Victory and Royal Sovereign are exactly the same...probably you eyes, the colours and double line text playing havoc there.

I figured out something that threw me about the left hand side legend: the title "Boarding Ships -" has sub-sections (Opposing Sides, Same Side, Same Nation) but Bombardments is NOT a subsection of Boarding Ships even though it is written in the same size text as the subsections and does not look like its own title. If you somehow gave the Bombardments section some space from the ship boarding descriptions it would set things straight in the reader's mind.

I will adjust the text on Bombardments to the same size as the text for Boarding Ships, but since there is no room to move in that area.....

Redoubtable and Te'Me'rie - are they "locked together"? They're awfully close but not actually touching. And if they aren't locked, can they bombard each other?

They will be closer together, so please F5. The guns from the Temeraire are pointed at Indomptible, and the guns from Redoubtable are pointed at Victory, since they're also attacking each other.

About those bombardments: I predict that this is going to be the element of the map that sparks the most comments/controversy after the map goes live... "I was holding Swiftsure and needed to bombard Belleisle to take out a player, but I couldn't... why not?" Or can Swiftsure bombard Belleisle?

Are there guns pointed at Belleisle from Swiftsure, No, therefore they can't bombard each other.
Are they joined together, No, therefore they can't attack each other.

Can Principe de Asturias bombard all the way over to Thunderer, and vice-versa?

Yes.

Indomptable to S.T.? Because there's a clear line of sight yet S.T. doesn't have guns to hit Indomptable back? This is a map that will be really difficult to play without BOB because otherwise I'm not sure how you'll know what you have to defend yourself from.

You obviously have just made the same mistake that most players on this site seem to make and that is not reading the legend first.
The legend says the Nations Involved
British Vs French & Spanish
So if i was on the S.T.(Spanish), why the hell would I want to bombard the Indomptable (French), since they're both on the same side. Get it.

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

You obviously have just made the same mistake that most players on this site seem to make and that is not reading the legend first.
...
Get it.

Or mapmakers make confusing maps with lousy legends?

Anyway, since I'm clearly just a nuisance I won't bother you any more.

[cairnswk]

You obviously have just made the same mistake that most players on this site seem to make and that is not reading the legend first.
...
Get it.

Or mapmakers make confusing maps with lousy legends?

Anyway, since I'm clearly just a nuisance I won't bother you any more.

Thanks for your input oaktown

[MrBenn]

the blurriness is gone from those ship names. Better, but the Bucantaure and Royal Sovereign names still don't fit with the rest. In my opinion the Principe de Asturias is the best looking title. And is it my color-challenged eyes or do the british ships not have the outer glow that the others do? And Victory and Royal Sovereign are both British flagships, yet their have very different styles... I'm not following the system.

I have checked the names and they are all fine with the rest. They're all the same structure. There is no outer glow to the British Ships. And both Victory and Royal Sovereign are exactly the same...probably you eyes, the colours and double line text playing havoc there.

There is no way that Victory and Royal Sovereign are exactly the same... the text is a different colour, or has a different opacity. Some of the labels are easier to read than others... for these it probably is just an optical illusion, but is nevertheless distracting

[*]On the title area, "Vive l'Empereur' looks more italicised than "The Kings Victory"

The text you've changed it too just looks rotated, rather than distorted by the wind in the sails... Try it with some sort of bulge, so that it starts horizontal, and follows the line of the sail...

You obviously have just made the same mistake that most players on this site seem to make and that is not reading the legend first.
The legend says the Nations Involved
British Vs French & Spanish
So if i was on the S.T.(Spanish), why the hell would I want to bombard the Indomptable (French), since they're both on the same side. Get it.

To be fair, the legend doesn't make straightforward reading.... You could create a little more space by moving "The Nations Involved" and the boats up a bit. Id change things about a bit, so it reads as follows:

The Nations Involved
British v French & Spanish
Same Nation ships connect where they have direct line of sight ............ (you could lose the bit about where they don;t connect, as the dotted line is obvious enough).
Opposing sides ships locked together can board each other.
ships with cannon can bombard their opponent
Same Side French and Spanish ships cannot bombard each other. ships with with row boats can board each other.
Flagships are one ship with two armies. The bow and stern armies can assault and bombard different targets.

The map is very nearly there - I just want to be satisfied that the map is as clear as possible before giving it the stamp

[cairnswk]

the blurriness is gone from those ship names. Better, but the Bucantaure and Royal Sovereign names still don't fit with the rest. In my opinion the Principe de Asturias is the best looking title. And is it my color-challenged eyes or do the british ships not have the outer glow that the others do? And Victory and Royal Sovereign are both British flagships, yet their have very different styles... I'm not following the system.

I have checked the names and they are all fine with the rest. They're all the same structure. There is no outer glow to the British Ships. And both Victory and Royal Sovereign are exactly the same...probably you eyes, the colours and double line text playing havoc there.

There is no way that Victory and Royal Sovereign are exactly the same... the text is a different colour, or has a different opacity. Some of the labels are easier to read than others... for these it probably is just an optical illusion, but is nevertheless distracting

[*]On the title area, "Vive l'Empereur' looks more italicised than "The Kings Victory"

The text you've changed it too just looks rotated, rather than distorted by the wind in the sails... Try it with some sort of bulge, so that it starts horizontal, and follows the line of the sail...

You obviously have just made the same mistake that most players on this site seem to make and that is not reading the legend first.
The legend says the Nations Involved
British Vs French & Spanish
So if i was on the S.T.(Spanish), why the hell would I want to bombard the Indomptable (French), since they're both on the same side. Get it.

To be fair, the legend doesn't make straightforward reading.... You could create a little more space by moving "The Nations Involved" and the boats up a bit. Id change things about a bit, so it reads as follows:

The Nations Involved
British v French & Spanish
Same Nation ships connect where they have direct line of sight ............ (you could lose the bit about where they don;t connect, as the dotted line is obvious enough).
Opposing sides ships locked together can board each other.
ships with cannon can bombard their opponent
Same Side French and Spanish ships cannot bombard each other. ships with with row boats can board each other.
Flagships are one ship with two armies. The bow and stern armies can assault and bombard different targets.

The map is very nearly there - I just want to be satisfied that the map is as clear as possible before giving it the stamp

I have re-worked all names on the map.
I have re-arranged the legend to follow what has been discussed previously before your input, and incorporate some of what you have suggested.
Are you happy with this, if so i will put the large version up.

[Incandenza]

I have re-worked all names on the map.
I have re-arranged the legend to follow what has been discussed previously before your input, and incorporate some of what you have suggested.
Are you happy with this, if so i will put the large version up.

Hang on a sec, I have a couple small things, but I'm right in the middle of work stuff, so I'll get back to ya in a few hours.

[Incandenza]

Okay. I do think there are a few things that could be cleaned up a bit to ensure maximum legibility (and a minimum of "does that cannon point at ship A or ship B?").

Right off the bat, I was always under the impression that the bow of a given flagship was considered to be the exact same as the stern, in terms of attacks/bombards (i.e. whatever Victory bow can attack/bombard and be attacked/bombarded by, it's the exact same for Victory stern). If that's not the case, okay, I can feature that. But you need to make sure that attack lines are absolutely unambiguous. People may not read legends, but there can't be any question as to visual attack lines. So, for instance, the Leviathan-Victory connection needs to be clearer, along with Fougueux-Algerias, Argonauta-Principe de Asturis, Victory-Royal Sovereign, etc. In fact, you might want to recheck every connection to a flagship to ensure that attack lines pick either bow or stern.

There are still a few cannon that leave a bit to be desired. Bucentaure's (which is misspelled as Bucantaure) port cannon could be better aimed, the stern cannon pointed more directly at the Conqueror army circle, the bow cannon either pointed directly at Agamemnon or Neptune (right now it's sort bestride the two). Speaking of Neptune, its starboard cannon could be more directly pointed at Bucentaure. As a rule of thumb, I'd say that it would be good policy for every cannon to be so oriented toward its target that a player could print out the map and line up a ruler down the length of a given cannon and pass directly through the center of the army circle at which it is aimed. By this metric, Victory stern, both Fougueux cannon, Mars, Montanes, Defense, and Conqueror (does it aim at Bucentaure bow or stern?) leave a bit to be desired. (supposedly the proper pluralized for of "cannon" is, in fact, "cannon", not "cannons", tho that might be an antiquated usage)

And for the record, graphically I don't think the flagship names need to be highlighted like you have. It's obvious enough to see the ships with 2 terits.

And finally, cairns, oak, play nice you two.

[cairnswk]

How is this guys?

Click image to enlarge.

[oaktown]

the legend is making more sense now for sure. Perhaps a line of text explaining that ships with cannons displayed can bombard opposing ships in their line of sight.

In the right hand legend it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more explicit about the weather line and lee line. What's odd is that the (W) and (L) only refer to each other in the legend - not to anything on the map. Better to outright say...

Fleet Bonuses
8 British +5
5 French +4
4 Spanish + 3
Above the Weather Line
---------------------------------------
Below the Lee line
8 British +5
5 French +4
4 Spanish + 3

Also, you say "each Flagship counts toward Fleet bonus" ... does this mean that the "Flagship counts one ship toward the bonus" or that "Each Flagship territory counts one toward the Fleet bonus"? Whichever you mean is the one you should say.

[cairnswk]

the legend is making more sense now for sure. Perhaps a line of text explaining that ships with cannons displayed can bombard opposing ships in their line of sight.

In the right hand legend it wouldn't hurt to be a bit more explicit about the weather line and lee line. What's odd is that the (W) and (L) only refer to each other in the legend - not to anything on the map. Better to outright say...

Fleet Bonuses
8 British +5
5 French +4
4 Spanish + 3
Above the Weather Line
---------------------------------------
Below the Lee line
8 British +5
5 French +4
4 Spanish + 3

Also, you say "each Flagship counts toward Fleet bonus" ... does this mean that the "Flagship counts one ship toward the bonus" or that "Each Flagship territory counts one toward the Fleet bonus"? Whichever you mean is the one you should say.

oaktown, right now i'm happy with the wording of the right legend, and so have several other people been when all this was discussed some pages back. As you can see there is limited room there to accommodate your suggestions. If people can't make some associations with weather and lee lines then perhaps they shouldn't be playing the map, nor indeed make an interpretation from :Flagship consists of bow and stern...each flagship counts towards Fleet bonus: that the flagship as whole counts towards the obtaining of whatever number of vessels are required to gain the bonuses.
I think that the cannon should be self-explanatory without having more wordy stuff in there about line of sight/bombardment.

[Incandenza]

oaktown, right now i'm happy with the wording of the right legend, and so have several other people been when all this was discussed some pages back. As you can see there is limited room there to accommodate your suggestions. If people can't make some associations with weather and lee lines then perhaps they shouldn't be playing the map, nor indeed make an interpretation from :Flagship consists of bow and stern...each flagship counts towards Fleet bonus: that the flagship as whole counts towards the obtaining of whatever number of vessels are required to gain the bonuses.
I think that the cannon should be self-explanatory without having more wordy stuff in there about line of sight/bombardment.

I tend to agree with cairns on the above points. As far as the weather line, given that it's represented on both the map and the legend, I'd say that's pretty clear... Maybe the last line could read "Whole Flagship counts toward Fleet Bonus", which seems an effective compromise.

As far as other fixes:
the connection between Algesiras and Monarca still seems dodgy, need to decide on bow or stern (or maybe Algesiras attacks from the stern, defends at the bow, but even then, it needs to be made perfectly clear)
the Mars cannon could still come down just a little bit

Other than that, connections and cannon look good, tho someone else might want to give them the once-over.

[cairnswk]

As far as other fixes:
the connection between Algesiras and Monarca still seems dodgy, need to decide on bow or stern (or maybe Algesiras attacks from the stern, defends at the bow, but even then, it needs to be made perfectly clear)
the Mars cannon could still come down just a little bit
Other than that, connections and cannon look good, tho someone else might want to give them the once-over.

Please F5 to see changes Inca. thanks.

Click image to enlarge.

[yeti_c]

The red (pink) glow behind the english ships doesn't match that of the English Vs French & Spanish legend text...
In fact - I'd go so far as to say the french and spanish ones don't match either.

Cannon(s) : The French and British have Blue/Red cannon(s) respectively - yet the Spanish have Brown cannons? - I suggest having Brown (or Gunmetal coloured) cannons on all of the ships - as they can then be seen a bit more obviously and then they are all tied together? Thoughts?

I'm not sure I like the highlighting of the commander vessels - although I disagree with Inc that they shouldn't be highlighted - as the map is fairly busy and they could easily get overlooked.

C.

[oaktown]

Cannon(s) : The French and British have Blue/Red cannon(s) respectively - yet the Spanish have Brown cannons? - I suggest having Brown (or Gunmetal coloured) cannons on all of the ships - as they can then be seen a bit more obviously and then they are all tied together? Thoughts?

I think they are easily identifiable as-is... though now that I look at them some are sort of stubby (eg. Conqueror).

I agree that the big ships need some highlighting, but that the current scheme seems a bit heavy.

Does Principe de Asturias have three cannons? It's confusing as I don't think there are three ships it can hit.

[Echospree]

Does Principe de Asturias have three cannons? It's confusing as I don't think there are three ships it can hit.

Looks to me as though the Principe de Asturias can bombard the Prince with both ends, and the Thunderer from only the stern. Same thing occurs with the Royal Sovereign.

[oaktown]

Does Principe de Asturias have three cannons? It's confusing as I don't think there are three ships it can hit.

Looks to me as though the Principe de Asturias can bombard the Prince with both ends, and the Thunderer from only the stern. Same thing occurs with the Royal Sovereign.

Oh, I get it now, the stern of Principe can bombard two things. I wouldn't have realized that on my own (which is why I'm probably not cut out to play this map! ).

[yeti_c]

Oh, I get it now, the stern of Principe can bombard two things. I wouldn't have realized that on my own (which is why I'm probably not cut out to play this map! ).

It's a flagship oaky... 2 army circles...

C.

[cairnswk]

Does Principe de Asturias have three cannons? It's confusing as I don't think there are three ships it can hit.

Looks to me as though the Principe de Asturias can bombard the Prince with both ends, and the Thunderer from only the stern. Same thing occurs with the Royal Sovereign.

Correct.

[cairnswk]

The red (pink) glow behind the english ships doesn't match that of the English Vs French & Spanish legend text...
In fact - I'd go so far as to say the french and spanish ones don't match either.

Mmmm.
Both the colours on the legend and on the British ships are #DF0000.
The legend is as 65% and the ships on water are at 15% glow. The reason it is done like this is because the legend sits on a brown background, and comes up darker than the ones on water on the blue background which makes them look pinkish.
Once again, this has been discussed previously in the thread and everyone attending at that time is happy with it, as am i.
Not onyl that, but it makes the legend stand out and convey the two sides/three nations message for those who don't know anything about this battle and want to play.

Cannon(s) : The French and British have Blue/Red cannon(s) respectively - yet the Spanish have Brown cannons? - I suggest having Brown (or Gunmetal coloured) cannons on all of the ships - as they can then be seen a bit more obviously and then they are all tied together? Thoughts?

The Spanish have brown cannons because yellow cannons don't show on this background. I am not in favour of changing the colours of the cannons, i think they are fine as is.

I'm not sure I like the highlighting of the commander vessels - although I disagree with Inc that they shouldn't be highlighted - as the map is fairly busy and they could easily get overlooked.
C.

I agree that they should be highlighted also. at present they stand out well and can be differentiated as needed. To give them the same treatment as the other ships has already been tried and people didn't like it, so it was changed to this. I feel they are good.

[yeti_c]

The red (pink) glow behind the english ships doesn't match that of the English Vs French & Spanish legend text...
In fact - I'd go so far as to say the french and spanish ones don't match either.

Mmmm.
Both the colours on the legend and on the British ships are #DF0000.
The legend is as 65% and the ships on water are at 15% glow. The reason it is done like this is because the legend sits on a brown background, and comes up darker than the ones on water on the blue background which makes them look pinkish.
Once again, this has been discussed previously in the thread and everyone attending at that time is happy with it, as am i.
Not onyl that, but it makes the legend stand out and convey the two sides/three nations message for those who don't know anything about this battle and want to play.

Cannon(s) : The French and British have Blue/Red cannon(s) respectively - yet the Spanish have Brown cannons? - I suggest having Brown (or Gunmetal coloured) cannons on all of the ships - as they can then be seen a bit more obviously and then they are all tied together? Thoughts?

The Spanish have brown cannons because yellow cannons don't show on this background. I am not in favour of changing the colours of the cannons, i think they are fine as is.

I'm not sure I like the highlighting of the commander vessels - although I disagree with Inc that they shouldn't be highlighted - as the map is fairly busy and they could easily get overlooked.
C.

I agree that they should be highlighted also. at present they stand out well and can be differentiated as needed. To give them the same treatment as the other ships has already been tried and people didn't like it, so it was changed to this. I feel they are good.

Don't take this the wrong way cairns - but your answers say to me - that you can't be bothered to try my ideas?

The capital ship legends look rubbish and need work - and whoever heard of a pink cannon (that's not in a porn film) - and I thought that legend matching fact is a necessity?! (Although I can concede that with 3 colours this is less important)

C.

[cairnswk]

...

Don't take this the wrong way cairns - but your answers say to me - that you can't be bothered to try my ideas?

The capital ship legends look rubbish and need work - and whoever heard of a pink cannon (that's not in a porn film) - and I thought that legend matching fact is a necessity?! (Although I can concede that with 3 colours this is less important)

C.

C. don't take this the wrong way either, but every idea you have doesn't have to be implemented or tried, nor indeed is it always coorect. I think i give you a good go at changes on these maps. But i am not interested in going rounds with you about whose ideas are better. I have stated that the cannons are good for me, and thus i am not interested in changing them to a gunmetal colour. It would be outside of the flavour of what i see the map as being.

Now what are you talking about the capital ships legend, which part for you looks like rubbish. Please be explicit.