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TRAFALGAR [12.4.2012] QUENCHED (V65)

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Mon Mar 30, 2009 5:32 pm

just a question for the double territs on the comander: can both territs be attacked from the other boats, and can both double territs attack each other. now that the commanders are even more specified due to the double army circles, I think you can lighten the bold on their names. Love the graphics!

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:27 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:just a question for the double territs on the comander: can both territs be attacked from the other boats, and can both double territs attack each other. now that the commanders are even more specified due to the double army circles, I think you can lighten the bold on their names. Love the graphics!
LZ


cairnswk wrote:
I like to seek feedback on this idea of having two terts on the commander ships, so that they have double-fire power almost and both would be required to be held to get the commander bonus. Naturally, they would border each other, and both have borders with neighbouring vessels.
I was trying to come up with something that worked well for the "ship of line" aspect, and these big gunners had 3/4 decks of guns anyway.

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:29 pm

yeti_c wrote:I like the commander double territory idea.

C>


Excellent. anything else to offer this, perhaps the bonus structure, does it need to change because there are now two armies on the commanders?
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby yeti_c on Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:18 am

cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:I like the commander double territory idea.

C>


Excellent. anything else to offer this, perhaps the bonus structure, does it need to change because there are now two armies on the commanders?


5 neutrals seems a lot - might take them completely out of the game.

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Mar 31, 2009 2:03 pm

yeti_c wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
yeti_c wrote:I like the commander double territory idea.

C>


Excellent. anything else to offer this, perhaps the bonus structure, does it need to change because there are now two armies on the commanders?


5 neutrals seems a lot - might take them completely out of the game.

C.


Since there are 6 double pairs now (12 terts), does this present a bonus drop issue for 1 VS 1.
I'd leave the neutrals where they are.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby yeti_c on Wed Apr 01, 2009 7:35 am

No - they're neutral...

However - I can't see someone working through 10 neutrals for a +1 bonus... ain't gonna happen.

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Wed Apr 01, 2009 12:48 pm

yeti_c wrote:No - they're neutral...

However - I can't see someone working through 10 neutrals for a +1 bonus... ain't gonna happen.

C.


What i was getting at, was if you make the commanders non-neutral then the 1 vs 1 bonus issue becomes a problems.
Perhaps the bonus could be lifted to +2 or +3
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby Incandenza on Wed Apr 01, 2009 5:05 pm

Visually I'm not wild about the dual-terit commanders, but I think they could really help the gameplay....

So with the dual commander terits, that puts the map up to 67 total terits. Okay, let's run through a few 1v1 drop scenarios (for the sake of brevity, I'll refer to the listed bonus structure as "cairns bonus" and my proposed "adding 1 terit to each bonus except british windward" concept as "inc bonus"):

A) No neutrals, cairns bonus -- 67 starting terits, 22 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 14 8 2.66%
Fr Windward 10 4 24.03%
Sp Windward 7 3 26.38%
Br Leeward 16 7 13.45%
Fr Leeward 10 4 24.03%
Sp Leeward 10 4 24.03%
Victory 2 2 10.45%
Royal Sovereign 2 2 10.45%
Bucentaure 2 2 10.45%
Algesiras 2 2 10.45%
Santissima Trinidad 2 2 10.45%
Principe de Asturias 2 2 10.45%

B) No neutrals, inc bonus -- 67 starting terits, 22 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 14 8 2.66%
Fr Windward 10 5 12.97%
Sp Windward 7 4 11.94%
Br Leeward 16 8 6.13%
Fr Leeward 10 5 12.97%
Sp Leeward 10 5 12.97%
Victory 2 2 10.45%
Royal Sovereign 2 2 10.45%
Bucentaure 2 2 10.45%
Algesiras 2 2 10.45%
Santissima Trinidad 2 2 10.45%
Principe de Asturias 2 2 10.45%

C) 1 neutral per commander, cairns bonus -- 61 starting terits, 20 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 13 8 1.44%
Fr Windward 9 4 20.94%
Sp Windward 6 3 21.89%
Br Leeward 15 7 10.50%
Fr Leeward 9 4 20.94%
Sp Leeward 9 4 20.94%

D) 1 neutral per commander, inc bonus -- 61 starting terits, 20 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 13 8 1.44%
Fr Windward 9 5 9.05%
Sp Windward 6 4 7.16%
Br Leeward 15 8 4.01%
Fr Leeward 9 5 9.05%
Sp Leeward 9 5 9.05%

E) both commander terits neutral, cairns bonus -- 55 starting terits, 18 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 12 8 0.66%
Fr Windward 8 4 16.60%
Sp Windward 5 3 15.62%
Br Leeward 14 7 7.53%
Fr Leeward 8 4 16.60%
Sp Leeward 8 4 16.60%

F) both commander terits neutral, inc bonus -- 55 starting terits, 18 per player
Bonus/terits/required/odds
Br Windward 12 8 0.66%
Fr Windward 8 5 5.47%
Sp Windward 5 4 3.25%
Br Leeward 14 8 2.34%
Fr Leeward 8 5 5.47%
Sp Leeward 8 5 5.47%

So, just looking at this, I'd say options A and B are out, even the steeper bonus requirements leave 10 bonuses with over 10% drop-chance. The problem with E and F is that, with each player starting with 18 terits, that might be a bit too much of a first-mover advantage.

C and D seem to be the best of both worlds: no commanders on the drop, the bonuses are a bit more manageable, and the first-mover is mitigated as much as possible. Of course, I prefer D, nothing over 10% (tho, to be fair, there's not a ton of difference between 9.05% and the 10.45% you see in options A and B), and with the dual-terit commanders, people will still be able to double up on all bonuses save British and Spanish Windward, meaning that with the commanders there'll be 16 bonuses in play, giving lots and lots of flexibility...

Furthermore, I'd put a potential commander neutral terit at only, say, 3 or 4...
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby el-presidente on Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:36 pm

cairnswk wrote:2. What do mean dimentions (dimensions) ? Please make clearer, I'm sorry but i'm not a mind reader :)


:oops: sorry, I am bad at spelling. I did mean dimensions, I think.

    1 The bombardmentseems a little difficult. Why do some allied nations bombard each other? What does the British ship "prince" bombard?
    2 I honestly don't know, but I was warned before about using a red line for something because it is hard for colorblind people to see,I think. I think your attack lines might be a problem, but I really don't know.
    3 I like the idea of double teritories on the comamnders.



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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:27 pm

el-presidente wrote: :oops: sorry, I am bad at spelling. I did mean dimensions, I think.

And what was this in relation to? the map size or something else. Please clarify.

    1 The bombardment seems a little difficult. Why do some allied nations bombard each other?

Which ones are you referring to? France and Spain will not be able to bombard each other so if there is something that does not appear correct, please tell me.

What does the British ship "prince" bombard?

Principe De Asturias only

2 I honestly don't know, but I was warned before about using a red line for something because it is hard for colorblind people to see,I think. I think your attack lines might be a problem, but I really don't know.

Yes you are correct, but both Protanope and Deuteranope should still be able to discern the various sides ships belong to.
Yellow and blue show quite distinctively.
3 I like the idea of double teritories on the comamnders.
Good.

Please refresh your map image.

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby gimil on Sat Apr 11, 2009 8:53 am

Cairns has requested vacation status for this (and his other) maps.

[moved]
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby Incandenza on Sat Apr 11, 2009 4:39 pm

Dang.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby Incandenza on Tue May 05, 2009 7:35 pm

Sure hope you're planning on bringing this one back too... wink wink, nudge nudge
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby LED ZEPPELINER on Tue May 05, 2009 7:51 pm

Incandenza wrote:Sure hope you're planning on bringing this one back too... wink wink, nudge nudge

look at cairnswk's sig, i think that explains
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby Incandenza on Tue May 05, 2009 7:54 pm

LED ZEPPELINER wrote:
Incandenza wrote:Sure hope you're planning on bringing this one back too... wink wink, nudge nudge

look at cairnswk's sig, i think that explains


Oh, I've seen his sig, but I figure it's worth a shot.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Tue May 05, 2009 8:45 pm

Incandenza wrote:
LED ZEPPELINER wrote:
Incandenza wrote:Sure hope you're planning on bringing this one back too... wink wink, nudge nudge

look at cairnswk's sig, i think that explains


Oh, I've seen his sig, but I figure it's worth a shot.

Oh yeh, it'll get back, but it will have to wait until poison rome is done.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby Incandenza on Wed May 06, 2009 1:53 am

Fair enough.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby cairnswk on Sun May 10, 2009 2:32 pm

Anymore suggestions for this one?
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun May 10, 2009 5:46 pm

The way the bold text looks is kind of weird … :?
Other than that, I got nothing. Sweet, this is back :)

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Double terts on Commanders?

Postby The Neon Peon on Sun May 10, 2009 5:59 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:The way the bold text looks is kind of weird … :?
Other than that, I got nothing. Sweet, this is back :)

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Same, love the map.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V31(P20) - Naming for double commanders

Postby cairnswk on Sun May 10, 2009 7:19 pm

ONe large problem i see is with territory naming for the double commanders.
Version 32a below shows this dilemma.

We could have V-A (Victory A) and V-B (Victory B) on the map.
But there is not much room to put the names of the ships in the legend.

Alternate, keep the names of the ships as per previous beside the ships on the maps, and the indicate in the legend that N= North and S=South, which would require some players having to read the legend. Can this be avoided?
This would also require the placement of a compass on the map, which is not unnatural since this is naval stuff.

Do you have any other suggestions?

Version 32a.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V32a(P22) - Naming commander double terts?

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun May 10, 2009 7:26 pm

Hmm, you're right. That is a big issue, slipped our minds :?

Well I guess that you have it the best way possible on the map. It's not pretty, but it's the best option.
I would suggest going with the naval theme and turning "A" and "B" into "B" and "S" for "Bow" and "Stern," respectively.

The only aesthetic issue I have with it is that the hyphens look kinda off; maybe the best way to go about it would be periods? So you have V.B and V.S …

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V32a(P22) - Naming commander double terts?

Postby cairnswk on Sun May 10, 2009 7:30 pm

the.killing.44 wrote:Hmm, you're right. That is a big issue, slipped our minds :?

Well I guess that you have it the best way possible on the map. It's not pretty, but it's the best option.
I would suggest going with the naval theme and turning "A" and "B" into "B" and "S" for "Bow" and "Stern," respectively.

The only aesthetic issue I have with it is that the hyphens look kinda off; maybe the best way to go about it would be periods? So you have V.B and V.S …

.44

OK, well i've kinda given you one of each in that version.
on the ships you can have bow and Stern (why didn't i think of that? :-s ) like you said above. Problem is, that is going to take away the flavour if I don't list the Commander ships somewhere, and as you can see, space is really tight.
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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V32a(P22) - Naming commander double terts?

Postby the.killing.44 on Sun May 10, 2009 7:33 pm

Maybe you take off the ship representations in the bottom right, reduce the opacity of the ship in the background, and make a list there? It'd be really tight though.

The other way to do it would just be in the XML, where you could list V.B (Victory Bow) etc. … Or you could combine both.

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Re: TRAFALGAR [D]- V32a(P22) - Naming commander double terts?

Postby cairnswk on Sun May 10, 2009 7:55 pm

I think my preference is to do is this way.
What do you think?
(Off to uni now, c u later)

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