Poison Rome [Quenched]

by **yeti_c** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:59 am

InkL0sed wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Why is Julius Ceaser a "Dictator" and not an "Emperor"?

C.

Because he was a Dictator, not an Emperor.

I thought he was still head of the "Roman Empire"? - Or did it change it's name to the "Roman Dictatorship"?

C.

by **cairnswk** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:22 am

yeti_c wrote:
InkL0sed wrote:
yeti_c wrote:Why is Julius Ceaser a "Dictator" and not an "Emperor"?

C.

Because he was a Dictator, not an Emperor.

I thought he was still head of the "Roman Empire"? - Or did it change it's name to the "Roman Dictatorship"?

C.

Because Julius Caesar was never declared emperor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_(title)
Wikipedia gives

Periods
Roman Kingdom
753 BC – 509 BC

Roman Republic
509 BC – 27 BC
Roman Empire
27 BC – AD 476

I have never heard of him being referred to as Emperor of ....
it's always been Dictator.

by **yeti_c** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:42 am

I've never heard of him referred as anything - hence an assumption that he was an "Emperor" of an "Empire"...

But wiki says he was only ever a Dictator - although note it seems he was only a Dictator for 12 days?

C.

by **InkL0sed** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:08 am

Caesar took control of Rome militarily, but he didn't stay long in political power. When Octavian ended the civil war, he declared himself Augustus and emperor.

Caesar wasn't even Rome's first dictator. It was legal for Rome to temporarily have a dictator when the Senate deemed it necessary (the story of Cincinnatus sums up the ideal of the farmer-general who becomes dictator to combat the barbarian threat, and goes back to his farm once it's over). Caesar only broke the law by staying in power - like Sulla did not very long beforehand.

Anyway, we digress...

by **cairnswk** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:29 am

OK....below is a list of names I have sorted out.

Gaius Julius Caesar
Marcia (ex Regii)
Julia Caesaris
Gaius Marius
Sextus Julius Caesar
Proconsul Caesar
Aurelia Cotta
Julia Major
Dictator Julius Caesar
Calpurnia
Pompeia Sulla
Cornelia Cinna
Gnaeus Pompeus
Julia
Marcus Balbus
Cleopatra VII
Gaius Octavius
Atia Caesonia
Marcus Antonius
Octavia Minor
Claudius Marcellus
Scribonia
Emperor Agustus
Livia Drusilla
Tiberius C Nero
Julia The Elder
Marcus V Agrippa
Vipsania
Drusus
Antonia
Emperor Tiberius
Castor Drusus
Livilla
Tiberius Gemellus
Livia Helen
Agrippa Postumus
Vipsania Julia
Gaius Caesar
Lucius Caesar
Agrippina
Germanicus
Lucius C Longinus
Drusilla
Caesonia
Emperor Caligula
Julia Drusilla
Julia Livilla
Nero Caesar
Drusus Caesar
Julia Livilla
Agrippinella
Livia Helen
Emperor Claudius
Messalina
Gnaeus Abenobarbus
Britanicus
Emperor Nero
Octavia
Vulcan
Mars
Iuppiter
Iuno

I don't think that any are repeated in Version 9 below

by **cairnswk** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:23 pm

Can we start talking bonuses for families.
i'm inclined to lower agrippina and germanicus to +3
marcus agrippa and Julia the elder to +3
what do you boys think?

by **Incandenza** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:06 pm

I don't really have a problem with marcus agrippa/julia being +4. There's seven terits each to conquer, and all have to be defended due to various borders/figs/poisons. Agrippina/Germanicus also has 7 terits to conquer, but only 4 to defend, plus it's right next to caligula (which I presume would also have to be held for the bonus), so +3 sounds okay.

by **cairnswk** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:24 pm

Incandenza wrote:I don't really have a problem with marcus agrippa/julia being +4. There's seven terits each to conquer, and all have to be defended due to various borders/figs/poisons. Agrippina/Germanicus also has 7 terits to conquer, but only 4 to defend, plus it's right next to caligula (which I presume would also have to be held for the bonus), so +3 sounds okay.

And i almost hate to ask, but are the names satisfactory now?

by **Incandenza** on Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:26 pm

At a glance the names look substantially better, but I'll go thru with a fine-tooth comb in the very near future (I'm about to go on my lunch break, good times).

by **cairnswk** on Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:15 am

Incandenza wrote:At a glance the names look substantially better, but I'll go thru with a fine-tooth comb in the very near future (I'm about to go on my lunch break, good times).

Kewl

by **cairnswk** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:25 pm

Incandenza wrote:At a glance the names look substantially better, but I'll go thru with a fine-tooth comb in the very near future (I'm about to go on my lunch break, good times).

Still waiting before i make any further changes

by **TaCktiX** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 5:53 pm

You accidentally have two P's for Jupiter, poor Zeus-clone. It'll also fix your spacing issue you've got down there.

Also, whilst the quote is great, it's hard to read with the background. Perhaps a little bit of glow or stroke to make it stick out more?

I know Cleopatra is a very unique person (not Roman by birth), but the different color leads me to believe at first glance she has a special rule associated with her, which she doesn't according to the legend. Going back to the standard color would help with the confusion, unless you plan to stick a bonus on her or something similar.

I assume that the house graphics are a work in progress, as right now they don't look like they have a "place" on the map. Any way to incorporate them more into the overall design (more roofs and the like)I hope is on the drawing board (I have not looked previously into the map thread, you likely have this planned).

The present bonus structure is very confusing. I know that you are saying mom, dad, and the kids, but the many family trees makes "what's in the bonus" really hard to figure out. This is made worse by the prominence of 0's all over the map, giving no credit whatsoever for some poor married couples. You could entertain tossing out the territory bonus (keeping it a fixed 3) and increasing all family bonuses to make this a big map of small and overlapping bonuses (a different play style, likely quite fun).

The bombards right now seem disproportionately powerful on the one hand (Livia's figs), or nearly worthless on the other (Livilla's poison). Someone holding Livia can utterly shut down any person wishing to claim a bonus in the bottom left of the map, being able to bombard away all but 2 +1 bonuses in that entire section. Livilla meanwhile is practically worthless, as two of the 3 territories affected are borders, and the 3rd is in the middle of Livia's powerzone. It may be historically accurate, but Livilla seems pointless.

Gods seem rather underpowered considering that you have to break 8 neutral to claim a meager +1 (3 from the god, 5 from an emperor). Roman deities were direct ripoffs from the Greek ones, so saying that gods are meddling in mortal affairs is a good idea for this. Up the bonus to something noteworthy (+3/4 autodeploy to keep them from being overpowerful, with borders to every emperor but NOT each other, no Roman god wants to share credit) and that should be great.

Well, I meant to write two one-liners, but a few paragraphs later, I can duly say that this map was

by **cairnswk** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:39 pm

TaCktiX wrote:You accidentally have two P's for Jupiter, poor Zeus-clone. It'll also fix your spacing issue you've got down there.

Good

Also, whilst the quote is great, it's hard to read with the background. Perhaps a little bit of glow or stroke to make it stick out more?

Can do

I know Cleopatra is a very unique person (not Roman by birth), but the different color leads me to believe at first glance she has a special rule associated with her, which she doesn't according to the legend. Going back to the standard color would help with the confusion, unless you plan to stick a bonus on her or something similar.

Yes of course she has a special rule in this map and it shows in the bonuses of "0" ('coz she never married Caesar by Roman law) and the special colour, as her marriage to Antony was not in Roman tradition, and she married Antony after Caesar was dead. They both had children by her, and in this map, she is used as means of Antony attacking Caesar and vice versa through her link.

I assume that the house graphics are a work in progress, as right now they don't look like they have a "place" on the map. Any way to incorporate them more into the overall design (more roofs and the like)I hope is on the drawing board (I have not looked previously into the map thread, you likely have this planned).

yes more to come there.

The present bonus structure is very confusing. I know that you are saying mom, dad, and the kids, but the many family trees makes "what's in the bonus" really hard to figure out. This is made worse by the prominence of 0's all over the map, giving no credit whatsoever for some poor married couples. You could entertain tossing out the territory bonus (keeping it a fixed 3) and increasing all family bonuses to make this a big map of small and overlapping bonuses (a different play style, likely quite fun).

Confusing for you, yes? Not so for others thus far.
What "0"s...i can only find 2, surrounding Cleopatra....unless you are mistaking the gold wedding rings for Zeros.
let's see...i think the bonuses are quite easy to work out....for Caesar and his wives plus Julia - if you hold all 5 - you get +3...easy.
if you hold Scribonia, Julia the Elder, Emperor Augustus, Livia Drusilla and Tiberius C Nero, Emperor Tiberius and Drusus + 3...easy.
If i tossed out the territory bonuses, the families would have to be listed somewhere and that is going to take space which i don't have.

The bombards right now seem disproportionately powerful on the one hand (Livia's figs), or nearly worthless on the other (Livilla's poison). Someone holding Livia can utterly shut down any person wishing to claim a bonus in the bottom left of the map, being able to bombard away all but 2 +1 bonuses in that entire section. Livilla meanwhile is practically worthless, as two of the 3 territories affected are borders, and the 3rd is in the middle of Livia's powerzone. It may be historically accurate, but Livilla seems pointless.

Good point about Livilla - i'll work on that one.

Gods seem rather underpowered considering that you have to break 8 neutral to claim a meager +1 (3 from the god, 5 from an emperor). Roman deities were direct ripoffs from the Greek ones, so saying that gods are meddling in mortal affairs is a good idea for this. Up the bonus to something noteworthy (+3/4 autodeploy to keep them from being overpowerful, with borders to every emperor but NOT each other, no Roman god wants to share credit) and that should be great.

Worthwhile suggestion....

Well, I meant to write two one-liners, but a few paragraphs later, I can duly say that this map was

Yes well you do get carried away don't you.

by **Incandenza** on Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:25 pm

cairnswk wrote:
Incandenza wrote:At a glance the names look substantially better, but I'll go thru with a fine-tooth comb in the very near future (I'm about to go on my lunch break, good times).

Still waiting before i make any further changes

Sorry, on weekends I have the attention span of a gnat...

Well, there's still a ton of Julias, but I think you've managed to differentiate them well enough (but you'll still have a few people coming in here to bitch after the map's quenched). Thanks for indulging me.

by **cairnswk** on Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:10 pm

Incandenza wrote:....
Well, there's still a ton of Julias, but I think you've managed to differentiate them well enough (but you'll still have a few people coming in here to bitch after the map's quenched). Thanks for indulging me.

no worries, that was genuine concern.
yes i agree there'll still be those who complain, but i think there is enough differentation now and they are afterall not right next to each other.

by **InkL0sed** on Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:38 pm

Actually, Jupiter in Latin is spelled "Iuppiter"

by **cairnswk** on Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:43 pm

InkL0sed wrote:Actually, Jupiter in Latin is spelled "Iuppiter"

i knew i had that spelling in there for a reason initially

by **MrBenn** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 1:48 pm

cairnswk wrote:
The present bonus structure is very confusing...

Confusing for you, yes? Not so for others thus far.

I disagree - I still find the bonuses confusing, which is the primary reason I haven't been paying more attention here.

Graphically, I think this is still below the standard we should expect from a 20+ cartographer... so I hope you raise your game on this one.

by **cairnswk** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 4:50 pm

MrBenn wrote:
cairnswk wrote:
The present bonus structure is very confusing...

Confusing for you, yes? Not so for others thus far.

I disagree - I still find the bonuses confusing, which is the primary reason I haven't been paying more attention here.

Graphically, I think this is still below the standard we should expect from a 20+ cartographer... so I hope you raise your game on this one.

I think you finding the bonuses confusing and not saying so, should be a situation reversed, where if you are finding them confusing then you should be commenting and paying attention otherwise how do i know that you don't like something...piss-poor excuse Mr Benn. As a CA I would expect that you would comment if you found something confusing.

As for the graphics comment, then your expectations are in line with mine on this one, but for now it is still are version 9.
I didn't see the need for this comment at this time....it is way out of line. As for this map still being in the Drafting Room, I would have to question why this is so.

and while we're at it.....can you do your CA duty and post the results of the poll which finished during the week, and pull the poll down so that if i need to post another, i can do so. Thank you

by **MrBenn** on Fri Dec 19, 2008 5:17 pm

Poll Results:

Is anyone still interested in the continuity of this map?

Poll ended at Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:20 pm

Yes 16 64%
Yes - with comments 2 8%
No 6 24%
No- with comments 1 4%

Total votes : 25

by **The Neon Peon** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 12:22 pm

I did not vote, but here is my opinion:

Everything about the map is good: the graphics, the gameplay, the idea... but in my opinion, even though all aspects are good, none are great. There is nothing currently about the map that makes me fall in love with it.

by **cairnswk** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 2:59 pm

The Neon Peon wrote:I did not vote, but here is my opinion:

Everything about the map is good: the graphics, the gameplay, the idea... but in my opinion, even though all aspects are good, none are great. There is nothing currently about the map that makes me fall in love with it.

So tell me Neon....what would qualify to make you fall in love with it?

by **The Neon Peon** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:08 pm

That's the problem. I don't really know how the map could be improved. It seems fine the way it is when I look at it. I am more neutral on the matter than anything.

I will still definitely play it when it comes out, but the whole feeling is not like a map.

by **TaCktiX** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:13 pm

I'd have to say the same thing as Neon. The concept is novel, so major points there, that's my main interest. However, the gameplay, while different, straddles the line between confusion from overinformation and engaging awesomeness. It's not that the connections are difficult to understand, nor the bonus idea. It's that the two together, across the entire map, is a lot to take in at once. The descriptions in the legend are proper and succinct, it's just one cost that the idea presents to your map.

Graphics, well you have said they are a work in progress, so should you be any bit surprised when we say that it doesn't grab us right off? C'mon now, our standards are no less than yours for great graphics.

One random gameplay insight while I was looking at the map: Any family unit that includes an emperor is by default harder to get than one that doesn't, because of the 5 neutral. I know that you can access the gods through the emperors, but that's a benefit most people won't go for (8 neutral to break), and all the while at least 13 of your bonuses are tougher to pick up than the rest. I would say inflate the bonuses by 1 or 2 on ones attached to an emperor to keep from disadvantaging a guy who can't pick up an easy +1 because of crap drop.

by **InkL0sed** on Sat Dec 20, 2008 3:18 pm

I have to disagree, I think I'm going to love this map. I don't think it's nearly as confusing as some maps out there, and it's complicated in a fun way.

Poison Rome [Quenched]

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