Logic dictates that there is a God!

[FabledIntegral]

Number two is something I've discussed at length in the past, and it is a long discussion, but a fun one if you're up for it.

I've got to disagree with you. It isn't that fun as I've participated in this very discussion also. It's not any fun when people nit-pick about the trivial aspects and ignore the bigger picture. The bigger picture is very simple: Sin breeds sin. That's about as far as I'm willing to go on the subject. Sorry, maybe another time.

Well, it's against my nature to let anyone have the last word. So if sin breeds sin, and everything had to have a first cause... it goes back to god, does it not? Big picture-wise, of course.

Ok. I'll bite.

Life started with God but sin and suffering started with Adam and Eve and their own free will.

Let me pick this apart then.

First of all - we have the question, why did God create us in the first place? Was he bored? Did he want to be worshipped (someone is insecure... hehe)?

Second, we move onto the next picture. According to you, Adam is the one that brought sin into this world. I highly disagree upon this by very basic logic, but I'm going to argue against what I believe is said in the Bible and will just go with your flow. So, we're assuming that Adam brought sin into this world via his own free will. However, God, when creating Adam, created Adam with certain faults that enabled him to bring sin into this world. I'm not saying God MADE him, I'm saying God enabled him.

So at this point, what can we conclude? God, prior to making Adam, created Adam with certain faults, and God knew that because of the way God created him, that he would succumb to sin. It may have been Adam's free will - but God created him with all the personality traits to disobey him, such as curiosity, ignorance, etc. Yet God still decided to create him.

Let me ask you this - pretend we are in some futuristic scenario, and you are granted the knowledge of foresight. If you knew that if you had a kid, because of some futuristic scenario, the kid would automatically be taken in by the government and taught atheism his entire life, would you still do it? And this foresight even extends so far as to allow you to see your child grow up, live an average life, and eventually die and go to hell because of his lack of belief in God. Would you still have that child? He still has the freewill to make any decision he wants - it was his choice to believe in atheism...

[Snorri1234]

Let me ask you this - pretend we are in some futuristic scenario, and you are granted the knowledge of foresight. If you knew that if you had a kid, because of some futuristic scenario, the kid would automatically be taken in by the government and taught atheism his entire life, would you still do it? And this foresight even extends so far as to allow you to see your child grow up, live an average life, and eventually die and go to hell because of his lack of belief in God. Would you still have that child? He still has the freewill to make any decision he wants - it was his choice to believe in atheism...

Even better question: If you knew that your kid would bring chaos and darkness to the world, would you still have it?

[Gregrios]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

[Neoteny]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

Well, that's more reasonable than the common alternative, I suppose. I'll give you that.

[mpjh]

There is no "logic" here, only belief.

[MeDeFe]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

So god does not know what is going to happen according to your pov (though it might have a pretty good idea, but it might always be in for a surprise, too), only what has happened and what is happening? That's pretty reasonable and avoids a lot of logical problems.

[Frigidus]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

Well, that's more reasonable than the common alternative, I suppose. I'll give you that.

Indeed, the occasional passages in the Bible in which God "walks" around or "looks" for things seem to indicate something less than a perfect being. There is no actual passage in the Bible stating that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient, just very powerful and rather insightful. There are even a good few that seem to indicate he isn't (unless you assume those passages to be metaphor). I've always wondered at what point exactly that idea started floating around. It seems to me that a good deal more of the Bible would make sense if God was, in some way, flawed. Well, perhaps not make sense...it would just make about as much sense as the rest of it, however you happen to see that.

[Snorri1234]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

Well, that's more reasonable than the common alternative, I suppose. I'll give you that.

Indeed, the occasional passages in the Bible in which God "walks" around or "looks" for things seem to indicate something less than a perfect being. There is no actual passage in the Bible stating that God is omnipotent, omnipresent, or omniscient, just very powerful and rather insightful. There are even a good few that seem to indicate he isn't (unless you assume those passages to be metaphor). I've always wondered at what point exactly that idea started floating around. It seems to me that a good deal more of the Bible would make sense if God was, in some way, flawed. Well, perhaps not make sense...it would just make about as much sense as the rest of it, however you happen to see that.

Well...making a flawed product is always your fault whether you intended to or not.

[comic boy]

If there is a god, and I have no proof one way or t'other, then she is one cruel bastard. The act of creating this world, and allowing such suffering and horendous injustice is the act of a cruel and empty entity. If there is a god, I want nothing to do with her.

This lacks logic on so many levels.

It doesn't really. Would you care to explain why you feel that way?

If you've got to ask than you won't understand the explanation. As the obviousness of this is only understood by he who knows what they're talking about in the first place and this guy obviously doesn't.

Just a bunch of nonsense, there is no logic in your proposition and spewing out fanciful gibberish laced with a liberal dose of physchobabble does nothing to improve your position.
Shit is still Shit however nice a package you present it in

[jonesthecurl]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

SO if God can't even work out when someone's hiding in the bushes (two people out of a world population of two), how is it he can tell when we're sincere, have really repented, etc etc as you have often told us? Can he still see what we really think if we've got a hat on?

[Neoteny]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

SO if God can't even work out when someone's hiding in the bushes (two people out of a world population of two), how is it he can tell when we're sincere, have really repented, etc etc as you have often told us? Can he still see what we really think if we've got a hat on?

Clever. I enjoyed that.

[Frigidus]

No I don't believe he knew that Adam and Eve were going to go against his wishes as it states in Genesis when God walks through paradise looking for Adam who was hiding in the bushes. This clearly shows that God did not have forknowledge because if he did he wouldn't have been looking for Adam and wondering where he was. Instead he would have just went right to the bush where Adam was hiding. My take on it is that it was Satan's actions that he didn't see coming. That's just my opinion and not of popular belief as far as I know.

SO if God can't even work out when someone's hiding in the bushes (two people out of a world population of two), how is it he can tell when we're sincere, have really repented, etc etc as you have often told us? Can he still see what we really think if we've got a hat on?

Oh, that's why he has to be omniscient.

[jay_a2j]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

[Neoteny]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

Now that's just illogical.

[jonesthecurl]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

OOH dissension in the Xian ranks.

Stipulating the Genesis story to be true for a moment, I think you're right, Jay.
But it does take the wind out of the sails of the rest of Gregrios' comments on the free-will question above, don't you think?

[Snorri1234]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

Now that's just illogical.

AND NOT TRUE IN MY BIBLE!

BIBLE IS TRUTH!

[jay_a2j]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

OOH dissension in the Xian ranks.

Stipulating the Genesis story to be true for a moment, I think you're right, Jay.
But it does take the wind out of the sails of the rest of Gregrios' comments on the free-will question above, don't you think?

If you choose to see it that way, I suppose. God has a plan. The plan will be completed to the end. God intervenes to keep the plan on track. Thus when we pray for something outside of God's plan, it will not be granted. The big picture is something that none of us can see.

No dissension, Christians vary in what they believe on the "little things". I talked to a guy yesterday that believes that there where baby dinosaurs on Noah's ark. He is free to believe that if he wishes, I don't.

[Neoteny]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

OOH dissension in the Xian ranks.

Stipulating the Genesis story to be true for a moment, I think you're right, Jay.
But it does take the wind out of the sails of the rest of Gregrios' comments on the free-will question above, don't you think?

If you choose to see it that way, I suppose. God has a plan. The plan will be completed to the end. God intervenes to keep the plan on track. Thus when we pray for something outside of God's plan, it will not be granted. The big picture is something that none of us can see.

No dissension, Christians vary in what they believe on the "little things". I talked to a guy yesterday that believes that there where baby dinosaurs on Noah's ark. He is free to believe that if he wishes, I don't.

Why bother praying then? And we're back to the free will discussion again...

[jay_a2j]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

OOH dissension in the Xian ranks.

Stipulating the Genesis story to be true for a moment, I think you're right, Jay.
But it does take the wind out of the sails of the rest of Gregrios' comments on the free-will question above, don't you think?

If you choose to see it that way, I suppose. God has a plan. The plan will be completed to the end. God intervenes to keep the plan on track. Thus when we pray for something outside of God's plan, it will not be granted. The big picture is something that none of us can see.

No dissension, Christians vary in what they believe on the "little things". I talked to a guy yesterday that believes that there where baby dinosaurs on Noah's ark. He is free to believe that if he wishes, I don't.

Why bother praying then? And we're back to the free will discussion again...

Because if what you are praying for does not interfere with Gods plan, He may grant it.

[Snorri1234]

"God, please do this little thing for me and ignore all the other fucking problems in the fucking world."


Any of you christians ever ask for shit not concerning you or anyone around you? (Including people from your country.)

[Snorri1234]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

OOH dissension in the Xian ranks.

Stipulating the Genesis story to be true for a moment, I think you're right, Jay.
But it does take the wind out of the sails of the rest of Gregrios' comments on the free-will question above, don't you think?

If you choose to see it that way, I suppose. God has a plan. The plan will be completed to the end. God intervenes to keep the plan on track. Thus when we pray for something outside of God's plan, it will not be granted. The big picture is something that none of us can see.

No dissension, Christians vary in what they believe on the "little things". I talked to a guy yesterday that believes that there where baby dinosaurs on Noah's ark. He is free to believe that if he wishes, I don't.

Why bother praying then? And we're back to the free will discussion again...

Because if what you are praying for does not interfere with Gods plan, He may grant it.

He's still filling in the details?

[MeDeFe]

Well, here's by 2 cents. God knew where Adam was all along.

OOH dissension in the Xian ranks.

Stipulating the Genesis story to be true for a moment, I think you're right, Jay.
But it does take the wind out of the sails of the rest of Gregrios' comments on the free-will question above, don't you think?

If you choose to see it that way, I suppose. God has a plan. The plan will be completed to the end. God intervenes to keep the plan on track. Thus when we pray for something outside of God's plan, it will not be granted. The big picture is something that none of us can see.

No dissension, Christians vary in what they believe on the "little things". I talked to a guy yesterday that believes that there where baby dinosaurs on Noah's ark. He is free to believe that if he wishes, I don't.

Why bother praying then? And we're back to the free will discussion again...

Because if what you are praying for does not interfere with Gods plan, He may grant it.

But if it's in the plan it would be granted whether you pray or not.

[jonesthecurl]

As the Man once said "Free Will is a golden thread running through the frozen matrix of fixed events" - or rather one of his characters said this, and another went on to rubbish the comment. It's purty tho, ain't it?

[jonesthecurl]

Robert Heinlein.
The Mark Twain of science fiction.

[jay_a2j]

But if it's in the plan it would be granted whether you pray or not.

Not necessarily, I was healed of MS. I don't recall ever praying for a healing myself but I know others were. I have prayed for others to be healed and they were not. God sees the big picture. Prayers can consist of many things, not just requests. Prayer is how we humans communicate with God.