We got some good kids in England!

[joecoolfrog]

Going halfway around the world in order to sit on the internet arguing at 4 in the morning, what a geek

[Nickbaldwin]

Joe leave it at that would ya.

[joecoolfrog]

Joe leave it at that would ya.

Cool

[suggs]

I had EIGHT onion Bajis! Fat boy is back in town

Commie, you're confused. And, to an extent, you have won, because you've succeeded in winding me up. Guess I've done enough of that myself, so I can't complain.
But I'm tired of you calling liberals, or anyone who isn't far right, "fags" or "fairies" or weak in some way. Its just meaningless junk, an attempt to bolster your own frail ego. What is weak and cowardly is to blame all your problems on people that are in minorites (as the blacks are, by A MILE, in England).
Its a shame, as you have talent, but I'm afraid tolerance only takes you so far -and its zero tolerance for racists, I'm afraid.
Otherwise hatred and bloodshed ensues -and whats the fucking point of living in a world like that. You are no longer bringing anything to the table, apart from bile.
Try staying something nice -that takes strength, because you have to drop your guard and risk letting people in.
Still, maybe you prefer your own mad paranoia, its probably all your tiny mind can handle.

We have some good kids in england.

[jay_a2j]

Group hug!

[InkL0sed]

Group hug!

*hugs jay*

You would be a good kid if you were only British.

[suggs]

Group hug!

[jay_a2j]

Group hug!

*hugs jay*

You would be a good kid if you were only British.

I have a dual, American/German citizenship if that helps.

[heavycola]

[quote="HeavyCommunist
Oh but of course, I forget HC's backgorund - " I iz teh HC, formerly a public school boy, who's parents ran out of cash and had to downsize to some obscure scottish hamlet, where i still live, whilst renting a shite flat in some shitty little london neighbourhood, whilst riding my beaten up old bike into work where I work a mundane public sector jod for useless, unashamed bitter people with no real ambition to do anything but piss my little panties whenever there is injustice, or wqhite people (particularly english) make some kind of cultural advancement."

Good on them kids, they're finally beginning to think for themselves, praise odin.[/quote]
what happend to you? Fucking hell man this tragic. You thick, sad, attention-starved wankstain. I can taste the bitterness from here. So you lash out at others for starting personal attacks, when your first post in this thread is a bunch of half-remembered bullshit tht is suposed to be about me? From a forum you got banned from months ago? Are you so desperately lonely you still need to lurk here? I know asutralia must have seemed like a place where brainless no O-level meatheads like yourself could finally mingle with people at your own level - and coming from portsmouth that's pretty low, let's face it - but it hasn't worked out like that, has it?
Not that I give a f*ck. You'll still traipse around sydney looking for new internet cafes that haven't been IP banned to post your monkey accounts from. It's a sad and lonely state of affairs, but then being unemployed must get very, very, very boring.

[suggs]

Good on yer Cola.
A masterpiece of a post.

[mandyb]

The fickle, shallow mob raises its heroes to the pinnacle of approval today and hurls them into oblivion tomorrow at the slightest whim; cheers today, hisses tomorrow..

[suggs]

The fickle, shallow mob raises its heroes to the pinnacle of approval today and hurls them into oblivion tomorrow at the slightest whim; cheers today, hisses tomorrow..

If your heroes stop being heroes, and turn into pricks, then yes.

[Hologram]

These kids stood their ground! Good for them!

I don't know Jay, It was a religious studies class. It was part of their lesson. They weren't asked to change faiths or believe in Islam or anything, it was just a class demonstration. The article doesn't say that they were being punished for not worshipping Allah, but that they were because they refused to participate.....

Does anyone else see it this way? Or am I in the minority one this one.

I think I'm gonna give it to Jay on this one. Yeah, I think everyone should at least learn the truths of the beliefs of other religions instead of just the stereotypes everyone knows, but forcing them to do a mock prayer doesn't fall under that teaching bit.

[MeDeFe]

These kids stood their ground! Good for them!

I don't know Jay, It was a religious studies class. It was part of their lesson. They weren't asked to change faiths or believe in Islam or anything, it was just a class demonstration. The article doesn't say that they were being punished for not worshipping Allah, but that they were because they refused to participate.....

Does anyone else see it this way? Or am I in the minority one this one.

I think I'm gonna give it to Jay on this one. Yeah, I think everyone should at least learn the truths of the beliefs of other religions instead of just the stereotypes everyone knows, but forcing them to do a mock prayer doesn't fall under that teaching bit.

I think it would help if we knew for what those kids "stood their ground". For their right to religious freedom, or for not wanting to participate in something "silly".

[dewey316]

I think it would help if we knew for what those kids "stood their ground". For their right to religious freedom, or for not wanting to participate in something "silly".

It would help, but still leaves the question of how far do we go in the name of "tolerance". I think there is a fine line between learning about other religions, and crossing lines where you fail to respect someones choosen religion. We obviosly are not going to circumcise the muslim children, so they can understand what it is like to be Jewish, nor would we baptize the hindu. So should we really expect children of other religions to go through the practice of Salat? I think that understanding other peoples religions is a very good thing, but if I had a child that was asked to perform and recite a prayer that ran counter to a commandment in my religion, I would be the first one to tell them not to do that.

[Juan_Bottom]

I don't understand you exactly DEWEY316, so please forgive me. But I thought that as long as you don't mean to worship another god by what you are doing, (I.E. learning, like reading the koran just to read it) then the Bible says it's ok? Doesn't it? PACKRAT said that the Bible even encourages you to check out other religions so that you will understand that God is the one true God.

[dewey316]

I said, that learning about other religions is a good thing. Reading the Qur'an, learning what traditions and expectations other religions have is a good thing. I never said otherwise. I however don't think we need to make kids actualy go through the motions of practicing them. Learning about the different meaning of the 5 prayers of the Salat is one thing, but asking a child of another faith to practice it is different. As I said, people would be up in arms, if they were baptising Muslim children in this class, why is Salat any different? When does teaching about other religions, start to cross the lines of respecting ones chosen religion?

I hope that clears it up a little, I am not saying that educating children about the faiths others is bad (I think that if done right, it can be a very good thing), I just think there needs to be a line that isn't crossed when it comes to respecting faith also. For beleivers, their religion is much more than just something that is acedemic exercise, agree with a religion or not, that needs to be respected.

I find it a little funny though, that here in the US, we can't even say the pledge of allegiance anymore, because it says "God". And in England they are asking every kid to recite the Al-Fatiha.

[Juan_Bottom]

Fair enough DEWY316 I can respect that point of view.

But the pledge of allegiance is bullshit. Especially if your an ATHEIST. I had to type a report in high school about why I wouldn't say it. I stood up and said, I wasn't going to do it unless everyone else had do one on why they would say it. My answer was, they don't have to because of seperation of church and state. Total, utter, bullshit!!!! Thanks for reminding me .

DEWEY316, when your god is named GOD, then I know just who your talking about, ya know? Who the hell is anyone to make me recite that?
For those of you foriegn Atheists who don't know it, US law says every school's students must recite it every day.

I pledge allegience,
to the flag,
of the United States of America,
and to the republic,
for which it stands,
one nation,
under god,
with liberty and justice for all.

And I'm not being hypocritical here either.

[dewey316]

I thought that as long as you don't mean to worship another god by what you are doing, (I.E. learning, like reading the koran just to read it) then the Bible says it's ok?

I realised I didn't address this comment in my last post.

I don't speak for all Christians, by any means. I would disagree with the first section, and agree with the 2nd. Not meaning to worship another god, and reading are different. Reading the Qur'an I would be fine with (I have read an interpritation of it myself, since i don't actualy read Arabic). Biblicly speaking, the act of praying to another god, meaningful or not, is different. There are biblical examples of people being asked to pray to Ba'al. It doesn't say "ok, as long as you don't mean it", it instead gives examples for us to follow of people refusing to do so, even at the threat of death. This is why I said earlier, learning about different religions is great, becoming an unwilling participant in another religions practices is crossing a line in my book.

(You replied while I was typing). Just as you seem upset by having to recite that, which seems to run counter to your beliefs. I would hope you can see why I would not want to be forced to recite the Al-Fatiha.

[Juan_Bottom]

I thought that as long as you don't mean to worship another god by what you are doing, (I.E. learning, like reading the koran just to read it) then the Bible says it's ok?

I realised I didn't address this comment in my last post.

I don't speak for all Christians, by any means. I would disagree with the first section, and agree with the 2nd. Not meaning to worship another god, and reading are different. Reading the Qur'an I would be fine with (I have read an interpritation of it myself, since i don't actualy read Arabic). Biblicly speaking, the act of praying to another god, meaningful or not, is different. There are biblical examples of people being asked to pray to Ba'al. It doesn't say "ok, as long as you don't mean it", it instead gives examples for us to follow of people refusing to do so, even at the threat of death. This is why I said earlier, learning about different religions is great, becoming an unwilling participant in another religions practices is crossing a line in my book.

(You replied while I was typing). Just as you seem upset by having to recite that, which seems to run counter to your beliefs. I would hope you can see why I would not want to be forced to recite the Al-Fatiha.

I thought that you had indirectly responded. That's ok.

I don't see them as the same thing though. My being forced to recite the phrase 'I'm under God' is not the same thing. Mine was not part of a lesson. Maybe they would be the same if the article actually gave some specific details, but as it stands, they aren't.
But I see the counter-belief part of what you are saying. i just don't see in the article exactly which belief was stepped on by the teacher. That's actually kinda why I asked you as a Christian.

[dewey316]

I don't see them as the same thing though. My being forced to recite the phrase 'I'm under God' is not the same thing. Mine was not part of a lesson.

I don't see it any different as asking a Christian child to say "Allah Akbar". You don't beleive the "Christian God", and don't want to verbaly say you do. I don't beleive in the Allah of Islam, and I would not want to verbaly say so either.

[Juan_Bottom]

I was being asked to admit everyday that there is a god, and that he has power over me. Not only that, but that it is the Christian God. Which is the exact opposite of everything I believe. These kids weren't asked to do anything like that.

They weren't asked to sell themselves out everyday. All that they were asked to do was to learn from this one-time experience. Which is something I myself have no problem with(I would participate).
And since the article itself fails to tell us exactly what belief was infringed upon, I see no connection between these kid's experience and my own. Nor do I see these kids having any kind of a point(not that it isn't there).

[dewey316]

I was being asked to admit everyday that there is a god, and that he has power over me. Not only that, but that it is the Christian God. Which is the exact opposite of everything I believe. These kids weren't asked to do anything like that.

They weren't asked to sell themselves out everyday. All that they were asked to do was to learn from this one-time experience. Which is something I myself have no problem with(I would participate).
And since the article itself fails to tell us exactly what belief was infringed upon, I see no connection between these kid's experience and my own. Nor do I see these kids having any kind of a point(not that it isn't there).

I am not sure how you can't at least see the corrilation between your not wanting to say something, admiting to something you don't beleive, and someone else saying something, admiting to another god they don't beleive in. I too would like some clarification on what they were asked to do. The article didn't really elaberate. It made metion of wearing the head-dressings, I see that as no big deal. But, there was also mention of having to pray using the prayer mat, if that is the case, then I think they crossed a line. If they were asked to participate in worshiping another god, then it is infringing on their beliefs.

[Juan_Bottom]

admiting to something you don't beleive,

I just don't see where they were asked to say that Allah is God. Which is what I was asked to do, ya know? If they were though, I'd be raising the banner too.
But I concede that we may have to agree to disagree about whether or not I'm a hypocrite. I'll wait and see what the others think though.

But, there was also mention of having to pray using the prayer mat, if that is the case, then I think they crossed a line. If they were asked to participate in worshiping another god, then it is infringing on their beliefs.

See, that's why I asked you if there was something in Christianity where you can't do that. Because I was under the impression that you could, for the reasons stated above. But! If a Christian can't, then I totally agree that the line WAS crossed.

[dewey316]

admiting to something you don't beleive,

I just don't see where they were asked to say that Allah is God.

**IF** they were asked to perform the Salat (Islamic prayer), then they would be saying "Allahu Akbar . La ilaha illal lah" (Allah is the Greatest, there is no god but Allah).

But, there was also mention of having to pray using the prayer mat, if that is the case, then I think they crossed a line. If they were asked to participate in worshiping another god, then it is infringing on their beliefs.

See, that's why I asked you if there was something in Christianity where you can't do that. Because I was under the impression that you could, for the reasons stated above. But! If a Christian can't, then I totally agree that the line WAS crossed.

Again, I can't speak to each persons interpritation, but Gen. 20:5 "You shall not bow down to them or worship them". Take it for what it is worht, as most Christians don't follow all the old testament commands. I can say that as an adult Christian, that if asked to perform the Salat, I would decline, based on what it is, and stands for, running counter to my personal beliefs.