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Stonehenge: The Truth

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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Balsiefen on Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:24 am

I know I'm taking this rather seriously but I like arguing about this sort of thing ;)
HapSmo19 wrote:OK. Back to Balsiefen...

Balsiefen wrote:A trap, no; temple, maybe

Why take care so that the sun would move exactly through the central stone at midsummer and midwinter? Why line the outside banks with gleaming white stone so it can be seen from miles around?

Why go through all the trouble to quarry ALL OF THOSE monoliths from whales, and somehow move them there to co-incide with two asrological occurences?

Because it was Religion. Why would people in medieval times spend millions of pounds, hundreds of lives and a huge amount of workforce building massive cathedrals while everyone else is in extreme poverty? The same reasons apply to both civilizations.

And you think the trap is elaborate? Where are the markings of any kind, charting the seasons? There are none.
Where are those gleaming white stones? I don't see them.

By elaborate I didn't mean in that sense. You are a bronze age bloke living in south England, You need to get huge stones (I'm not even sure what weight they are) all the way from Wales to Saulsbury. Once you get them there, you have to stand them upright (consider their weight, this is not as easy as it sounds, It took hundreds of years for historians to figure it out) And then you have to mount the crosspieces (which still no-one can entirely agree on, I'm not sure i could even take a guess) Now, all you have to do this with are stone and wood (and quite possibly bronze which is a rather soft compared to most metals).

As for markings, agreed there aren't any, possibly the stones were symbolic enough. possibly they are contained within the wooden structure some say used to stand in the center of the circle, possibly they have been destroyed over the years (as have most roman artifacts and carvings not buried) by natural forces or Christians who wished to destroy pagan imagery (they did have a campaign of destroying stonehenge at one point but gave up believing it was cursed when the stones started falling over themselves and killing people).
The white stuff is definitely there, but currently buried under the outermost mound, and due to military activity over the years, rather destroyed.


Balsiefen wrote:The second thing is, its far too ceremonial for a simple trap (which could be made as you described by nothing but a few mounds of earth and a locally sourced stone.)

Less work than three mounds,...you can predict a solstice with two points,...right?

Ah, yes but you cant build a temple with two, the function of Canterbury cathedral could have been achieved with a large empty wooden building with a load of chairs and an alter, but it isn't, because the function of a religious building isn't just to pray in, it is to impress. The priests bring the peasants in from their one room hovels and give them a taste of heaven and the glory of god.

If you visit Canterbury slaughterhouse however, you will find it it has no more than what it needs for its function.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby HapSmo19 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:52 am

I just made a mile-long reply to your post and it was lost when the site told me I needed to log in AGAIN :evil:
So I will just say this: Your theory is full of more assumptions than mine. Everything I need to make it work is there. Give Me 40 strong S.O.B.'s and some rope and I'll have it up and squashing lions, grizzly bears, elephants and tyranosaurs in a week and at least several a day, every day after that. :P
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby muy_thaiguy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:57 am

HapSmo19 wrote:I just made a mile-long reply to your post and it was lost when the site told me I needed to log in AGAIN :evil:
So I will just say this: Your theory is full of more assumptions than mine. Everything I need to make it work is there. Give Me 40 strong S.O.B.'s and some rope and I'll have it up and squashing lions, grizzly bears, elephants and tyranosaurs in a week and at least several a day, every day after that. :P

PROBLEM!

There really weren't that many large creatures in Britain to begin with during that time, especially large predators (other then bears, but I think they were similar in size to the North American Black Bear, therefore, can be taken down by a well thrown spear or well shot arrow). So doing such a thing would be pointless. However, it being a temple/shrine sort of structure is far more believable then it being used as a trap of some sort.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:31 am

2dimes wrote:What does "smo" mean?

"smokes so much weed he comes up with the most ludicrous stoned/stones ideas ever"
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby spurgistan on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:12 am

Nigel Tufnel wrote:In ancient times...
Hundreds of years before the dawn of history...
An ancient race of people...
The Druids.

Noone knows who they were
Or what they were doing.
But their legacy remains
Hewn into the living rock
Of Stonehenge.


Seriously, has anybody floated the idea that Stonehenge may simply be a ridiculously oversized stage prop for some prehistoric metal show?
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:14 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
2dimes wrote:What does "smo" mean?

"smokes so much weed he comes up with the most ludicrous stoned/stones ideas ever"


:lol:

I liked the Spinal Tap thing too SPURGISTAN. Now we're on to something!
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:31 am

spurgistan wrote:
Nigel Tufnel wrote:In ancient times...
Hundreds of years before the dawn of history...
An ancient race of people...
The Druids.

Noone knows who they were
Or what they were doing.
But their legacy remains
Hewn into the living rock
Of Stonehenge.


Seriously, has anybody floated the idea that Stonehenge may simply be a ridiculously oversized stage prop for some prehistoric metal show?


Yeah, [puff], and, hey, man, those like big stones could be speakers man [puff,cough] and, wait I'm gettin it now! yeah, man! It was the STONES! they've[puff, puff] like been around FOREVER, man!
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:48 am

:lol:


Best thread ever!
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Balsiefen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:34 pm

HapSmo19 wrote:I just made a mile-long reply to your post and it was lost when the site told me I needed to log in AGAIN :evil:

I feel your pain.

So I will just say this: Your theory is full of more assumptions than mine. Everything I need to make it work is there. Give Me 40 strong S.O.B.'s and some rope and I'll have it up and squashing lions, grizzly bears, elephants and tyranosaurs in a week and at least several a day, every day after that. :P

Hmm, kay.

My assumptions
-That the early Britons had an astrological and river based religion similar to that
-That the human burials (Showing no sign of dinosaur/misc other animal attack BTW) indicate it was a holy place for those who died
-That in the tribal structure of Britain, religion was the only force powerful enough to create such a structure and import materials on a scale never seen before in northern Europe
-That the builders would not have constructed such a huge structure, over the course of over 3000 years just to kill one or two animals that wandered into the tribe's area (remember, most of the animals you're suggesting were very territorial, you wouldn't have got a bunch at once)
-that Stonehenge is linked to the thousands of other stone circles in Britain which, by roman and Early Medieval accounts, were used for Pagan Religions.
-that the hunting methods which kept the population perfectly well in the rest of Europe didn't need to be replaced in Wiltshire.

Your Assumptions
-That the people of Wiltshire needed to kill lions(extinct in Britain before evolution of modern man), bears (which actually did exist, but were extremely rare and would almost never have attacked people), elephants (never existed in Britain, mammoths extinct 7000 years before first earth banks built) and tyrannosaurus (Extinct 64,995,000 years before Stonehenge and 64,000,000 years before modern humans, Its a big scale thing)
-That 40 odd men could mine out, carve, then lug these Huge stones all the way from Wales to Wiltshire and mount them. (tell me, have you ever been to Stonehenge? Those stones are a lot heavier that they look in pictures)
-That those men would choose to have stones to hide behind rather than, say, wooden palisades when hunting
-that they would bother to (and be able to) put crosspieces on top of the stones which they use to hide behind (Still no-one is quite sure how this was done, believe me, a lot of thought has been put into it by historians and engineers alike)
-that for such a task they would use fine welsh stone rather than locally sourced stone(maybe the animal would feel cheated if low quality stone was dropped on its head?).


Oh yes, and those markings, I didn't actually know about these before:
Image
They haven't survived very well, but they're dated to the late bronze age.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:38 pm

Those markings?
I assume you don't mean the roman alphabet stuff 9presumably added more modernly). The other markings look like runes to me, and would thus probably be graffiti.

The only sort of writing in use in the British Isles in pre-Roman times, so far as I'm aware, was ogham, and I don't have a date for that offhand.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Balsiefen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:57 pm

jonesthecurl wrote:Those markings?
I assume you don't mean the roman alphabet stuff 9presumably added more modernly). The other markings look like runes to me, and would thus probably be graffiti.

The only sort of writing in use in the British Isles in pre-Roman times, so far as I'm aware, was ogham, and I don't have a date for that offhand.


The markings below have apparently been identified as a dagger and an axem, They are however, rather difficult to date, all they are going on is that they are accurate for the type of tools of that era. Interesting if they are origional though, and they are definatly old.

The later stuff is graffiti
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:03 pm

Balsiefen wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:Those markings?
I assume you don't mean the roman alphabet stuff 9presumably added more modernly). The other markings look like runes to me, and would thus probably be graffiti.

The only sort of writing in use in the British Isles in pre-Roman times, so far as I'm aware, was ogham, and I don't have a date for that offhand.


The markings below have apparently been identified as a dagger and an axem, They are however, rather difficult to date, all they are going on is that they are accurate for the type of tools of that era. Interesting if they are origional though, and they are definatly old.

The later stuff is graffiti


Aha: hadn't spotted that. Very interesting. I seem to remember when I was there that some famous poet had carved his name in one of the stones. Can't remember who, but what a bastard anyhow.

Incidentally, on the silly question of large animals, if you go back before the last Ice Age there were elephants and rhinos.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Balsiefen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:08 pm

True, but not the current species, and its a few more ice ages back than one (i think)

actually, in my county someone's dug up the tusk of a prehistoric elephantine thing twice as big as a modern African elephant :shock:


And that guy wasn't nearly as much of a bastard as the blokes in the medieval times who went on a campaign to destroy it entirely (being a pagan monument) They only stopped when the stones started falling on top of people and giving them the spooks.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:11 pm

Balsiefen wrote:True, but not the current species, and its a few more ice ages back than one (i think)

actually, in my county someone's dug up the tusk of a prehistoric elephantine thing twice as big as a modern African elephant :shock:


they may have changed their mind about the dating - I was looking at quite an old book.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Balsiefen on Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:18 pm

Nope, I was wrong, it was only the last ice age Lions and hippos died out (didn't say anything about elephants but that proberbly goes with it.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Juan_Bottom on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:00 pm

So do we all still believe that it was a trap? One that took forever to build(didn't starve to death in that time, huh?), and no one thought to use wood(Back in MY day things used to be made with real quality!)or take into account the stench of death in the trap?

Because I liked this theory best of all. In fact, someone should conduct a test where a bunch of hippos get released and some Brits gotta catch them in the trap. Awesome.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby bob72 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:22 pm

actually people years ago didn't have to work more than 15-20 hours per week. So they decided they were going to leave millions of people wondering what these fecking stones were 1000s of years later.

It worked!
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby The Weird One on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:27 pm

Balsiefen wrote:actually, in my county someone's dug up the tusk of a prehistoric elephantine thing twice as big as a modern African elephant :shock:

The tusk was bigger than a modern african elephant...*faints*
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby The Weird One on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:29 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:So do we all still believe that it was a trap? One that took forever to build(didn't starve to death in that time, huh?), and no one thought to use wood

they did use wood in stonehenge. They also have a corresponding site called woodhenge (how bloody original :roll: ) which was made entirely out of wood.

sorry for the double post
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:59 pm

Juan_Bottom wrote:So do we all still believe that it was a trap? One that took forever to build(didn't starve to death in that time, huh?), and no one thought to use wood(Back in MY day things used to be made with real quality!)or take into account the stench of death in the trap?

Because I liked this theory best of all. In fact, someone should conduct a test where a bunch of hippos get released and some Brits gotta catch them in the trap. Awesome.


You could make it into a reality show - "Last Hippo Standing".

And then as a sequel you could have "Last Hippy Standing" - "Wow, [puff] that's one awesome rock man! [puff,puff]. Hey, how did they get that effin massive one right up there? [puff, puff] wow, good stuff this, If you stand right here it almost looks like that rock's fal-"
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 12, 2008 8:59 pm

The theme tune would have to be Jim Stafford's "I got stoned and I missed it".
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Balsiefen on Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:19 am

jonesthecurl wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So do we all still believe that it was a trap? One that took forever to build(didn't starve to death in that time, huh?), and no one thought to use wood(Back in MY day things used to be made with real quality!)or take into account the stench of death in the trap?

Because I liked this theory best of all. In fact, someone should conduct a test where a bunch of hippos get released and some Brits gotta catch them in the trap. Awesome.


You could make it into a reality show - "Last Hippo Standing".

And then as a sequel you could have "Last Hippy Standing" - "Wow, [puff] that's one awesome rock man! [puff,puff]. Hey, how did they get that effin massive one right up there? [puff, puff] wow, good stuff this, If you stand right here it almost looks like that rock's fal-"


THATS IT! The stones were there to round up and trap prehistoric hippies! Simply lift up the alter stone, stick a load of hemp underneath, and wait 'till the solctice!
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby muy_thaiguy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:50 am

Balsiefen wrote:
jonesthecurl wrote:
Juan_Bottom wrote:So do we all still believe that it was a trap? One that took forever to build(didn't starve to death in that time, huh?), and no one thought to use wood(Back in MY day things used to be made with real quality!)or take into account the stench of death in the trap?

Because I liked this theory best of all. In fact, someone should conduct a test where a bunch of hippos get released and some Brits gotta catch them in the trap. Awesome.


You could make it into a reality show - "Last Hippo Standing".

And then as a sequel you could have "Last Hippy Standing" - "Wow, [puff] that's one awesome rock man! [puff,puff]. Hey, how did they get that effin massive one right up there? [puff, puff] wow, good stuff this, If you stand right here it almost looks like that rock's fal-"


THATS IT! The stones were there to round up and trap prehistoric hippies! Simply lift up the alter stone, stick a load of hemp underneath, and wait 'till the solctice!

Can't I just take a club to them now?
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby spurgistan on Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:18 pm

Sorry, but did nobody watch Spinal Tap? Like, ever? Savages.
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Re: Stonehenge: The Truth

Postby Juan_Bottom on Sat Jun 14, 2008 7:03 am

David St. Hubbins: I do not, for one, think that the problem was that the band was down. I think that the problem may have been that there was a Stonehenge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf. Alright? That tended to understate the hugeness of the object.

Ian Faith: I really think you're just making much too big a thing out of it.

Derek Smalls: Making a big thing out of it would have been a good idea.
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