Correctness on games and gays

[Napoleon Ier]

I'm talking in racial matters, not government.

They were racist back then. (Or at least more racist than republicans I think.)

They still are, just without having others in chains.

Sadly.

...



What?!

[PLAYER57832]

The problem is that the game doesn't promote a homosexual agenda, it doesn't promote one over another.

The revised version does promote a heterosexual agenda though. Why not let people decide for themselves? If people who play the game don't like homosexuality they will fill in the rule anyway. So basically the rule is unneccesary.

Just the fact that homosexuality is mentioned will put it into the realm of an "agenda" by some.... or, at least boost the age-appropriateness of the game. Like it or not, that is how it will be seen here within the US.

As for my personal opinion .... as I said, I just tend to stick to more straight, non-political, "non agenda" games of any sort. Risk, Chess, Monopoly, Clue, etc... etc. are all games I can play without worrying over someone's politics or views. That is important to me, since I have friends with a wide range of views.

... and I don't buy a lot of games.

[CrazyAnglican]

In my initial read of the rules I thought the first set of rules were abit confusing (I didn't catch what "rule 3" was) until you explained it. So the changes may have been made to make them simpler like was stated earlier. As far as explicitly including homosexuality as a theme in your game you'll probably need to be very sure of your target audience.

For instance if this is a game which kids or adolescents would play, you would have some parents up in arms. If it's an adult game you probably wouldn't have much trouble as long as it's clearly labelled as such (lots of people pick up a game for the kids and don't look at it closely). In my experience adult games, with a sexual theme (I'm assuming here), are limited in their scope in the American market.

Different editions might be a solution. A tamer one would introduce the game and avoid any problems, and as it gains in popularity you could release the "adult" version. Bottom line if people like the game they will buy it, but if game/toy stores won't carry it then they won't get the chance.

[joecoolfrog]

Well, I may not play the game myself no matter what you guys decide to go with (never really played board games all that often), Bertros does have a valid point that if you do try and put in the gay thing, you will lose a large group of customers, because, and lets face it, gay couples and those that are for gay rights/all of that other stuff, make up a very small minority here in the US (though they do have a tendency to be quite loud at certain times).

You need to recheck the latest statistics, gay rights are now supported by a majority of US citizens and that support increases year on year. Obviously there are regional variations but you are way off the mark stating that only a very small minority are in favour now of equal opportunity for gay individuals or couples.

[Jucdor]

Well, I approached the publisher with the issue and they replied by wanting to see the way we put it there. So still no idea if it's a problem for them. Also, as the game is going to the print in China soon there simply isn't time to make any changes to the graphics. And they'd need to be visual anyhow so arbitary Democrat & Republican traits simply don't work. What is left to be done is the box illustration which is nearly done and rule illustration which is nearly done as well. The problem with rules was there for almost two weeks, but I spotted it just two days ago when we started finalising the rules.

Jucdor is making an adult-themed board game about picking up hotties at clubs. Possibly it will be the next Monopoly, but realistically (sorry Jucdor), it will be a niche sort of game played by the hardcore board-gamers who buy every game that Europe can throw our way and/or as a novelty at bachelorette parties. These people will not be offended by the OPTION of creating a homosexual "relationship". I cannot see how the OPTION would hurt the games marketability in the U.S.

Well I hope you're wrong about niche part. On the American publisher you could be right as they felt that it's not necessarily a Wal-Mart material (though the publisher, average sized one doesn't publish games that would go there anyhow), but certain other publishers in Europe seem to believe this could be a very big hit in a lot of countries. As they said it - they don't see any reason why it couldn't be their second most important game ever (the most important being the game that got them started 50 years ago).

If the U.S. publishers earnestly think it's a playability issue, that's something you need to discuss and work out with them, Jucdor. But if we have a European version that allows the option, and an American version that disallows it and disallows it for no reason but bigotry, I think you are right that it would be shameful to have your name attached to it.

Indeed... I didn't reply to them that harshly, but in our company there wasn't much understanding for the publisher on that issue. Let's see how it goes.

[Jucdor]

For instance if this is a game which kids or adolescents would play, you would have some parents up in arms. If it's an adult game you probably wouldn't have much trouble as long as it's clearly labelled as such (lots of people pick up a game for the kids and don't look at it closely). In my experience adult games, with a sexual theme (I'm assuming here), are limited in their scope in the American market.

As the word "adult" game has been thrown here quite a lot, I must state that the game is not adult game in that sense. Sure there's two-minded references what happens outside the game, but mainly it's about people having fun _in_ The Club. But sure, the age suggestion is 12+, so it's not meant for kids to play. In complexity the game is very much in the same league with games like Carcassonne or Ticket to Ride.

[qutoe] Different editions might be a solution. A tamer one would introduce the game and avoid any problems, and as it gains in popularity you could release the "adult" version. Bottom line if people like the game they will buy it, but if game/toy stores won't carry it then they won't get the chance.[/quote]
If the game becomes even a moderate hit we already some thoughts for additions that could be sold to the game as well. However as it is with board games more often, only few sell well enough to deserve a second print run and even fewer deserve additions or different versions. I hope our game is one of those that do deserve them. I already know though that this print that is going to be done now won't be the last so at least one is already sure.

[Jucdor]

Just the fact that homosexuality is mentioned will put it into the realm of an "agenda" by some.... or, at least boost the age-appropriateness of the game. Like it or not, that is how it will be seen here within the US.

That's the thing - homosexuality is hardly mentioned in the rules. The only reference to it is in one of the hidden traits the dancer tiles can have which is called bisexuality (and works that in that case the couple always has a matching gender). And that wasn't anything the publisher wanted to get rid off (although they did change it to way that bisexuality gives always one extra point).

As for my personal opinion .... as I said, I just tend to stick to more straight, non-political, "non agenda" games of any sort. Risk, Chess, Monopoly, Clue, etc... etc. are all games I can play without worrying over someone's politics or views. That is important to me, since I have friends with a wide range of views.
... and I don't buy a lot of games.

As I've said - this game really doesn't have an agenda. It's a slightly satiric game about life in the fast lane and is supposed to be a good party game to be played in a good company with laughter (and in many cases probably some bewerages) around you.

If you want to see a game with agenda then you should see our other game Modern Society which was just elected as the second best educational game in Nordic Serious Games Conference and which we'll start selling in autumn. The agenda for that game is to make the players/student more aware what's going on in the world and how they can make a difference themselves. How things connect to the bigger picture.

[Jucdor]

Whether gay couples are a minority isnt the point. If its a mater of business the only statistic that matters is how many people won't buy your game who otherwise would have if you do/don't allow same sex relations. As your US publisher, presumably a specialist on their market, thinks it should be removed that implies that in the US they feel leaving in same sex will cause less units to sell than taking it out. Its about business I assume, not gay rights activism, so go with the publisher.

Yeah... I guess you're right and we should be prepared to not make a stance here. Thank goodness board gaming is a lot bigger in Central Europe than in America (both in relative and absolute sense, the German board game market alone is bigger than that of the USA) so even if it wasn't coincidentally then we have a chance that the version they now start selling in the USA (& Britain) won't end up being the "standard" version. It's just that this took me completely by surprise. None of the other publishers we've been in contact with has even referred this being a problem. And again - I must say that neither has our American publisher. In this last minute hurry when we send files here and there they just made one bigger surprise change and I'm trying to guess if I should take it seriously or not.

[Jucdor]

Wuhuu! It wasn't a problem for the publisher.

[Billy007]

Jucdor, are you going to be aiming this game at children? If not, is there going to be an "adults only" tag on the box?

[PLAYER57832]

Wuhuu! It wasn't a problem for the publisher.

Good luck ... sounds like it is going forward. There is definitely a large market outside of the US, so perhaps any US difficulties will be irrelevant. And, perhaps we have over-estimated the negative reception within the US. I actually hope so! I do support rights of everyone (everyone not actively harming others, that is). My comments on the game were "marketing", not "ideology".

For my part, I don't buy that many games ... and live in a pretty conservative area with diverse friends. So, I tend to stick to completely neutral stuff in parties (but definitely debate in small circles ... as folks here have seen!). However, I am also probably not your target audience.

Again, good luck!

[Jucdor]

Jucdor, are you going to be aiming this game at children? If not, is there going to be an "adults only" tag on the box?

It will have PG13 tag on the box. It's a German-style/Euro Game board game with target audience from young adults to adults. Probably with ages from 15-35.

[Jucdor]

Wuhuu! It wasn't a problem for the publisher.

Good luck ... sounds like it is going forward. There is definitely a large market outside of the US, so perhaps any US difficulties will be irrelevant. And, perhaps we have over-estimated the negative reception within the US. I actually hope so! I do support rights of everyone (everyone not actively harming others, that is). My comments on the game were "marketing", not "ideology".

For my part, I don't buy that many games ... and live in a pretty conservative area with diverse friends. So, I tend to stick to completely neutral stuff in parties (but definitely debate in small circles ... as folks here have seen!). However, I am also probably not your target audience.

Again, good luck!

Thanks. And again I want to say again that it's not a porn game, but pretty harmless game with match-making theme. It's a game that doesn't take itself too seriously and plays around with a lot of cliché's. An excellent game even if I say so myself.