Jesus Camp

[Frigidus]

The teachings of the Bible should NOT be forced upon young children but it's essential for it to be INTRODUCED to them.

But using that logic you should introduce them to every freaking religion of consequence. That would be downright difficult, and it would just confuse them.

Creation and evolution are the only 2 beliefs that are studied by the majority in North America. Anything else is of the minority.

So you can determine truth by examining the opinions of the majority? That's hardly scientific.

[got tonkaed]

Creation and evolution are the only 2 beliefs that are studied by the majority in North America. Anything else is of the minority.

So you can determine truth by examining the opinions of the majority? That's hardly scientific.

Fastposted yet again!!!!!

got tonkaed 23702850276027

Frigidus a number less than that.

[Gregrios]

The teachings of the Bible should NOT be forced upon young children but it's essential for it to be INTRODUCED to them.

But using that logic you should introduce them to every freaking religion of consequence. That would be downright difficult, and it would just confuse them.

Creation and evolution are the only 2 beliefs that are studied by the majority in North America. Anything else is of the minority.

So you can determine truth by examining the opinions of the majority? That's hardly scientific.

So your saying that there's a good chance that Budism will be taught in NA schools. Your a hopeful one, arn't you?

[got tonkaed]

I think the point that is being made is sure, there is a sizeable portion of the population that wants fairness (from their perspective) about what is being taught. However these people also want to make the claim that each stance should get their case presented and should allow the students to decide.

Yet there is a rather easy problem to spot. If we are admitting topics of study simply on the necessity of letting students decide, then you shouldnt limit it to things people are aware of, you should necessarily be more inclusive. Why not tell the creation stories of many different religions out of the judeo-christian tradition. If anything many of those students probably need to hear those stories more than the genesis creation story if they are going "to hear all the sides and make the choice for themselves". When you reject this as unnecessary any attempt at credibility within the position is lost.

[heavycola]

The teachings of the Bible should NOT be forced upon young children but it's essential for it to be INTRODUCED to them.

But using that logic you should introduce them to every freaking religion of consequence. That would be downright difficult, and it would just confuse them.

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )
Buddhism, christianity, islam, sikhism, judaism and, increasingly, secular humanism are all taught. As you suggest, of course children need an introduction to all mainstream religions.
I think they have a light-hearted laugh at creationism after their exams are all finished, but that's all.

[DangerBoy]

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )

Great, sort of like Goebbels teaching a class on how to act humanitarian towards the Jews. I'm sure everyone walks away very tolerant towards church-goers after a class like that.

[got tonkaed]

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )

Great, sort of like Goebbels teaching a class on how to act humanitarian towards the Jews. I'm sure everyone walks away very tolerant towards church-goers after a class like that.

at least your not overblowing the analogy. While its regrettable that it doesnt end up being more neutral or even positive to religious believers, it maybe isnt quite as bad as you suggest.

[DangerBoy]

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )

Great, sort of like Goebbels teaching a class on how to act humanitarian towards the Jews. I'm sure everyone walks away very tolerant towards church-goers after a class like that.

at least your not overblowing the analogy. While its regrettable that it doesnt end up being more neutral or even positive to religious believers, it maybe isnt quite as bad as you suggest.

Yeah good point.

@heavycola, sorry about that. I get a little angry at how we're incorrectly portrayed. Your wife is most likely a very fine teacher.

[Dancing Mustard]

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )

Great, sort of like Goebbels teaching a class on how to act humanitarian towards the Jews. I'm sure everyone walks away very tolerant towards church-goers after a class like that.

And yet I imagine that you'd regard yourself as competent to teach a class of children why it is that atheists believe what they do? I imagine also that you'd imagine it was fine for a Buddhist to teach the same class, explaining what the Jewish faith was all about on a basic level? Or are you saying that basic school-level religious education curriculums can only ever be competently explained by somebody of the precise faith being discussed?

Once again it appears that a member of the religious right is out to stereotype every atheist on the planet as some church-burning heathen, hell-bent on slaying Gods, smashing idols, and erasing religion from the planet.
Why can't you understand that some of us atheists, despite not sharing your beliefs, just don't give a toss about you continuing to hold them, and are quite happy to co-exist with you?

[Frigidus]

@heavycola, sorry about that. I get a little angry at how we're incorrectly portrayed. Your wife is most likely a very fine teacher.

Indeed, it is extremely annoying when your entire religion gets lumped together with its more extremist members. The occasional flare up is practically unavoidable.

[DangerBoy]

Why can't you understand that some of us atheists, despite not sharing your beliefs, just don't give a toss about you continuing to hold them, and are quite happy to co-exist with you?

Because your posts and actions say otherwise

[Dancing Mustard]

Bum. I got fastposted.

Meh. Sorry about that, it's just that it is extremely annoying when your entire mindset gets lumped together with all of its more extremist adherents.


EDIT: Humbug and Nonesense 'Dangerboy'. Prove it.

[joecoolfrog]

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )

Great, sort of like Goebbels teaching a class on how to act humanitarian towards the Jews. I'm sure everyone walks away very tolerant towards church-goers after a class like that.

In my experience the great majority of atheists are only intolerant of the small minority of religious extremists, much the same in fact as the majority of mainstream Christians are.
Im pretty certain that kids will get a better grounding in world religions from an atheist than they would from a pastor or imman with a fixed agenda.

[DangerBoy]

EDIT: Humbug and Nonesense 'Dangerboy'. Prove it.

OK, start a thread and see if backglass, btownmeggy, suggs, neotony, snorri, medefe, heavycola, iliad, neutrino and yourself (sorry if I left anyone out) can go 30 days with only saying nice things about Christians here. No sarcasm, no derogatory snide remarks, no vicious puns, no mockery, or anything like that. I'm not asking you to say you believe in Christ or anything like that, just say something along the lines of some good things that Christians have done or something positive Christianity has done for civilization. I don't think you guys can take 30 days out of your lives to do it.

Prove to me that the group I just listed above can do it for 30 days and I'll take it back. No kidding, I really will.

[muy_thaiguy]

My wife = head of a religious education department at west london secondary school (and an atheist too, of course )

Great, sort of like Goebbels teaching a class on how to act humanitarian towards the Jews. I'm sure everyone walks away very tolerant towards church-goers after a class like that.

In my experience the great majority of atheists are only intolerant of the small minority of religious extremists, much the same in fact as the majority of mainstream Christians are.
Im pretty certain that kids will get a better grounding in world religions from an atheist than they would from a pastor or imman with a fixed agenda.

Even then, there is going to be a bias, but against religions, and it will vary from person to person.

[DangerBoy]

In my experience the great majority of atheists are only intolerant of the small minority of religious extremists, much the same in fact as the majority of mainstream Christians are.

I wish that were actually true, not just between Christians & atheists but other groups as well.

Im pretty certain that kids will get a better grounding in world religions from an atheist than they would from a pastor or imman with a fixed agenda.

Why would they get a better grounding from a person who thinks everyone else is full of crap? You're telling me that an atheist would never let their personal bias come out during a lecture! The atheist has just as much of an agenda as any believer in God. All you would have to do is go to a couple of my college classes to hear the hatred spewed out by some of my former professors.

Which reminds me of one time when the semester was over and I approached my philosophy teacher. We really had a good time discussing things and I kept my Christian faith a secret the entire semester (because I wanted to get a good grade). After he graded my final, I told him that I was a Christian and he replied, "But, but.........you're such a nice person!" He exposed what I had suspected his true intention to be during the whole semester. He was using his position as a teacher to teach hatred against Christians. And it's not just philosophy class either.

[bradleybadly]

Im pretty certain that kids will get a better grounding in world religions from an atheist than they would from a pastor or imman with a fixed agenda.

Why would they get a better grounding from a person who thinks everyone else is full of crap? You're telling me that an atheist would never let their personal bias come out during a lecture! The atheist has just as much of an agenda as any believer in God. All you would have to do is go to a couple of my college classes to hear the hatred spewed out by some of my former professors.

There might be a time or two when that does happen, but honestly I don't think a majority of us care which version of the same idea is right or wrong. I do think an atheist would be more inclined to just report the facts and let people decide for themselves if they thought it was a positive thing or negative.

I don't believe in God, but if my daughter decides she wants to believe that way I will still love her and I'll listen to her reasons for why she chose that. My wife isn't very religious but she does believe in "something out there". It doesn't dominate our discussions that much.

[PLAYER57832]

I am all for teaching children about a variety of cultures and ideas ... including religions. I think kids in public US schools often get a distorted view because teachers are afraid to talk about the real ways in which religions have influenced history.

BUT, that is a completely different issue from science and evolution. The problem is that Creationism is not science. Worse, it pretends to BE science and THAT is what makes it dangerous. There is nothing wrong with saying that God created the earth ... or a serpent or that it was the back of a turtle. As long as there is no pretending that this is science.

Many folks say, "but wait, evolution isn't proven, it is just a theory". There is some truth to that. BUT, it also misses a great deal. First, when evolution is presented, by a competent teacher (and that opens up a whole can of worms there, because many science teachers are not competent in this country) it is NOT taught as an absolute. HOWEVER, the facts that support evolution ARE presented as facts ... because they ARE FACTS.

This isn't a matter of "free choice" or "freedom of religion". It is a matter of truth versus not truth.

Science is the same regardless of your religion. Science is open for debate, but on SCIENTIFIC terms, not religious terms.

[Dancing Mustard]

OK, start a thread and see if backglass, btownmeggy, suggs, neotony, snorri, medefe, heavycola, iliad, neutrino and yourself (sorry if I left anyone out) can go 30 days with only saying nice things about Christians here.

If by 'nice things' you mean 'blindly agreeing and not pointing out the obvious flaws in our arguments' then the answer is no we can't. But you're missing the point here it appears: we're not being unpleasant to you because you're Christians, we're being unpleasant to you because you say illogical things that we can prove are incorrect.
We're not picking on Christians or trying to wipe your beliefs off the face of the planet. We're just pointing out why your opinions are misguided whenever you set up threads to bang on about them.
It seems to me that what you're asking for is some kind of special treatment where you state your opinions and nobody informs you that they disagree; and that's just being plain old oversensitive.

No sarcasm, no derogatory snide remarks, no vicious puns, no mockery, or anything like that.

Remind me what it was you were saying about Heavycola's wife again?

More hypocrisy with your tea vicar?

I'm not asking you to say you believe in Christ or anything like that, just say something along the lines of some good things that Christians have done or something positive Christianity has done for civilization.

Start a thread about that and I'm sure we can contribute to it and remark about positive things that the Christian Church has done. However I think it would be unfair of you to require us not to point out the bad things that it's done too. You're asking us to be 'nice' and more balanced in our critiques right, not trying to gag us from ever pointing out your flaws... right?

After all, I'm fairly sure that if I set up a thread pointing out the bad things that the Christian Church has done; you people would rock up and tell me all about the positives. Surely that's no different?

Prove to me that the group I just listed above can do it for 30 days and I'll take it back. No kidding, I really will.

Taking a group so small and using them as an example of an entire school of thought seems unfair... but why don't you set up your thread and test your theory?

[PLAYER57832]

Let me just point out that no one person here represents Christianity in its fullest. As much of the disagreement is within Christianity as without.

I don't agree with all the criticism, but I also don't necessarily consider them to be "attacks" ... just disagreements.

[wrestler1ump]

I think insecure people use religion to make up for their insecurities. If you guys watched the first bit of the documentary, you will see how that fat lady passionately went on and on about her religion.

Why can't people just be normal? Following a religious doctrine is one thing, but to centre your life around it and let it shape your personality is taking things too far IMO.

[Wiivja]

im the new jesus of this game and two other games

[PLAYER57832]

EDIT: Humbug and Nonesense 'Dangerboy'. Prove it.

OK, start a thread and see if backglass, btownmeggy, suggs, neotony, snorri, medefe, heavycola, iliad, neutrino and yourself (sorry if I left anyone out) can go 30 days with only saying nice things about Christians here. No sarcasm, no derogatory snide remarks, no vicious puns, no mockery, or anything like that. I'm not asking you to say you believe in Christ or anything like that, just say something along the lines of some good things that Christians have done or something positive Christianity has done for civilization. I don't think you guys can take 30 days out of your lives to do it.

Prove to me that the group I just listed above can do it for 30 days and I'll take it back. No kidding, I really will.

The question is do you want an honest debate ... or to exchange insults?

Anybody can send insults, but it takes thought and consideration to debate. And, for the record, there are plenty of "blind" extremists within ANY religion, creed and/or belief... who refuse to even consider that they might be wrong or anyone intelligent might differ.

[DangerBoy]

OK, start a thread and see if backglass, btownmeggy, suggs, neotony, snorri, medefe, heavycola, iliad, neutrino and yourself (sorry if I left anyone out) can go 30 days with only saying nice things about Christians here.

If by 'nice things' you mean 'blindly agreeing and not pointing out the obvious flaws in our arguments' then the answer is no we can't. But you're missing the point here it appears: we're not being unpleasant to you because you're Christians, we're being unpleasant to you because you say illogical things that we can prove are incorrect.

That's your incorrect assumption by saying "blindly" agreeing to things. You are being unpleasant to us because we're Christians. Stop trying to say you aren't. It's obvious. The group I listed above is for the most part, the only group of people here acting illogically. You don't have to become a Christian, but there are millions more people in this world that believe in some type of deity. So we must now believe that they are all saying illogical things and only atheists on conquer club are logical. Give me a break!

No sarcasm, no derogatory snide remarks, no vicious puns, no mockery, or anything like that.

Remind me what it was you were saying about Heavycola's wife again?

More hypocrisy with your tea vicar?

Perhaps you missed the part where I apologized to him. At least I try to make amends when I recognize I've gone too far. I don't think I've observed you even making the attempt.

We're not picking on Christians or trying to wipe your beliefs off the face of the planet. We're just pointing out why your opinions are misguided whenever you set up threads to bang on about them.

For the most part, this is just not true. Why would it hurt you if people started threads about what they believed? Only an irrational person would get so upset by that. You're defining just about any Christian-related subject as "banging on about them". So by your definition, anytime a Christian said anything positive about God it's offensive.

Start a thread about that and I'm sure we can contribute to it and remark about positive things that the Christian Church has done. However I think it would be unfair of you to require us not to point out the bad things that it's done too. You're asking us to be 'nice' and more balanced in our critiques right, not trying to gag us from ever pointing out your flaws... right?

After all the sarcastic hatred that you atheists have dribbled on about, it would not be too much to ask for to say some positive things about Christians, Christianity, or people who believe in God for 30 days. You talk about fair and balanced as being allowed to say negative things. You've already been doing that since you came on this site, Mustard! Take just 30 days and I'll bet you don't even come close to making up for the insulting hatred you've written here. It's pure religious bigotry on your part and the others I've mentioned.

If you can't do it, then just admit that you are a religious bigot.

Prove to me that the group I just listed above can do it for 30 days and I'll take it back. No kidding, I really will.

Taking a group so small and using them as an example of an entire school of thought seems unfair... but why don't you set up your thread and test your theory?

You asked me to prove my point so I just did. By your own words you made up an excuse not to even try. I knew you would do this but I just wanted it out in the open for everyone else to read. I'll start a thread to see what other people think about this.

[joecoolfrog]

Danger Boy

So your views on the Jesus camp film are ?