premature forging

[DiM]

but from what ive seen your all bashing ardennes (or at least DiM is) yet known of u are bashing conqueropoly, which in my opinion now was the most prematurely forged map in all my time on CC

A valid point... but ultimately wrong - DiM did mention 'opoly as being prematurely forged... I for one would hate to see this map quenched in it's current state.

C.

same here, which is sad since i just took over graphix, but idk what all to do for it cause NOBODY WILL COMMENT.

and i didnt know that dim had mentioned it, cause all your posts are so long i had time only to skim.

the only thing i see wrong with Ardennes is that its a little confusing, and maybe a slight graphix update would be needed, but thats all i can see.

yes i did mention conqueropoly spaceness and south africa along with ardennes. the discussion kinda drifted towards ardennes because as i said in the first post this whole thing came to me after seeing qwert posts some stats about how nobody posts in his map.

when the map maker starts making threads that his map has no support and a few days later i see the map is forged i'm thinking something just went wrong.

as for your lack of comments in final forge the reason is simple. people see it is in forge so they assume the map is good to go so they don't comment. you want something real to happen, get the thread moved back in main foundry and comments will come.

[greenoaks]

i refuse to enter the thread for conqueropoly. it is 40+ pages long. there is just too much for me to get my head around.

if you want people like me to give feedback archive that thread & create a new one with the main information in it like:
- the map (initial version, current version & maybe some in between)
- list of alterations/changes knocked back with description why
- list of issues you would like us to focus on

if all goes well and the map goes live then this new thread can be merged onto the end of the old thread for completeness.

[bryguy]

i refuse to enter the thread for conqueropoly. it is 40+ pages long. there is just too much for me to get my head around.

if you want people like me to give feedback archive that thread & create a new one with the main information in it like:
- the map (initial version, current version & maybe some in between)
- list of alterations/changes knocked back with description why
- list of issues you would like us to focus on

if all goes well and the map goes live then this new thread can be merged onto the end of the old thread for completeness.

actually the first 10-15 pages i think are just arguing over how the map should be done and who should do it.

Mostly people started commenting on pages 30+

and yea DiM thats probably true

[gimil]

i refuse to enter the thread for conqueropoly. it is 40+ pages long. there is just too much for me to get my head around.

if you want people like me to give feedback archive that thread & create a new one with the main information in it like:
- the map (initial version, current version & maybe some in between)
- list of alterations/changes knocked back with description why
- list of issues you would like us to focus on

if all goes well and the map goes live then this new thread can be merged onto the end of the old thread for completeness.

We not in the busienss of making the process any more difficult that it already is. You dotn have to read all 40+ pages. Just make your point and if its already been discussed you should be informed of that

[oaktown]

same here, which is sad since i just took over graphix, but idk what all to do for it cause NOBODY WILL COMMENT.

I don't want us to now start picking on Conqueropoly, since it was at one point a map that generated a ton of interest (more than any of my maps!) and it remains a really good idea. But it clearly stalled when it hit the Forge because those who followed it figured it was almost done, and those who hadn't been following it didn't take a sudden interest. It's not a bad project, it's just stuck. Conqueropoly would be an ideal candidate to take a step BACK from the Forge, because if you guys were back in the watchful eye of the Main Foundry and going through the stamp process it may generate renewed interest, more feedback, and new ideas.

[DiM]

We not in the busienss of making the process any more difficult that it already is.

if you leave conqueropoly in final forge you are making it more difficult. the only way for that map to be reborn properly is if it is moved to main foundry where it can get proper feedback. and since we're talking about a complete makeover i also think a new thread would work better. people are scared of long threads and if most of the things in that thread are useless then why keep them??

fastposted by oak.

[yeti_c]

same here, which is sad since i just took over graphix, but idk what all to do for it cause NOBODY WILL COMMENT.

I don't want us to now start picking on Conqueropoly, since it was at one point a map that generated a ton of interest (more than any of my maps!) and it remains a really good idea. But it clearly stalled when it hit the Forge because those who followed it figured it was almost done, and those who hadn't been following it didn't take a sudden interest. It's not a bad project, it's just stuck. Conqueropoly would be an ideal candidate to take a step BACK from the Forge, because if you guys were back in the watchful eye of the Main Foundry and going through the stamp process it may generate renewed interest, more feedback, and new ideas.

I have to say - if you run DiM's posting stats on it - you will see that 80% of the posts are from BadSpeler, Bryguy & Gilligan... the authors of the map... (1 of the reasons I stopped going in there as there was pages upon pages of meaningless crap)

Oh yeah - and a few comments of mine saying that the map's not as good as the last "Riskopoly" map...

C>

[bryguy]

same here, which is sad since i just took over graphix, but idk what all to do for it cause NOBODY WILL COMMENT.

I don't want us to now start picking on Conqueropoly, since it was at one point a map that generated a ton of interest (more than any of my maps!) and it remains a really good idea. But it clearly stalled when it hit the Forge because those who followed it figured it was almost done, and those who hadn't been following it didn't take a sudden interest. It's not a bad project, it's just stuck. Conqueropoly would be an ideal candidate to take a step BACK from the Forge, because if you guys were back in the watchful eye of the Main Foundry and going through the stamp process it may generate renewed interest, more feedback, and new ideas.

I have to say - if you run DiM's posting stats on it - you will see that 80% of the posts are from BadSpeler, Bryguy & Gilligan... the authors of the map... (1 of the reasons I stopped going in there as there was pages upon pages of meaningless crap)

Oh yeah - and a few comments of mine saying that the map's not as good as the last "Riskopoly" map...

C>

yea that basically started when it got forged, it started out as a great idea in the Map Ideas, then got improved slightly in the Foundry, but was prematurely forged, thats when it came to a sudden halt.

[DiM]

Heh, my two maps Periodic Madness and Citadel have nearly twice as many posts alone as Mexico does, and they're still in Map Ideas. So where's the line between plenty of support/feedback/comments and stamps? Sadly this seems to work both ways: late foundry, early forging.

EDIT: did the post-per-day number crunching.

Periodic Madness
Existence since 22nd March, 2008 (25 days)
Posts: 124
Posts/day: 4.96
Posts by Creator(s): 56 (45.16%, keep in mind it's a joint project)
Posts by C.A.s: 3 (2.4%, all by Gimil)
Posts by others: 65 (47.58%)

The Citadel
Existence since 24th January, 2008 (83 days, and this is being generous, since true Version 1 was not posted until 21 March, 2008, making the map proper 26 days old)
Posts: 103
Posts/day: 1.24 (original topic creation) or 3.54 (Version 1 release, subtracting all posts made prior to that [92 total])
Posts by Creator: 36 (34.95%)
Posts by C.A.s: 2 (1.94%, all by Gimil, one saying [ADV IDEA])
Posts by others: 65 (63.11%)

So I doubt either of these maps is getting any "extra" attention by C.A.s to get moved through the Foundry process, yet they're retaining more interest than several maps presently in Foundry.

true. some maps have support and don't get moved while others don't get support and are moved. that's why i advocate the idea of a support CA that has to gauge the interest for each map and only after he decides a map has fans, gimil and oak can come and give their stamps. i believe this support CA should conduct his business in the main foundry, after coleman has stamped for idea. 90% of a map should be done in the main foundry and for that 90% work to be done properly a map needs support.
yes decent graphics are possible even without feedback, same goes for gameplay but how do we know that's what the people want if nobody posts? i could start a map from scratch and create something decent without a single helping post. that doesn't mean that map should be quenched.

[bryguy]

Heh, my two maps Periodic Madness and Citadel have nearly twice as many posts alone as Mexico does, and they're still in Map Ideas. So where's the line between plenty of support/feedback/comments and stamps? Sadly this seems to work both ways: late foundry, early forging.

EDIT: did the post-per-day number crunching.

Periodic Madness
Existence since 22nd March, 2008 (25 days)
Posts: 124
Posts/day: 4.96
Posts by Creator(s): 56 (45.16%, keep in mind it's a joint project)
Posts by C.A.s: 3 (2.4%, all by Gimil)
Posts by others: 65 (47.58%)

The Citadel
Existence since 24th January, 2008 (83 days, and this is being generous, since true Version 1 was not posted until 21 March, 2008, making the map proper 26 days old)
Posts: 103
Posts/day: 1.24 (original topic creation) or 3.54 (Version 1 release, subtracting all posts made prior to that [92 total])
Posts by Creator: 36 (34.95%)
Posts by C.A.s: 2 (1.94%, all by Gimil, one saying [ADV IDEA])
Posts by others: 65 (63.11%)

So I doubt either of these maps is getting any "extra" attention by C.A.s to get moved through the Foundry process, yet they're retaining more interest than several maps presently in Foundry.

true. some maps have support and don't get moved while others don't get support and are moved. that's why i advocate the idea of a support CA that has to gauge the interest for each map and only after he decides a map has fans, gimil and oak can come and give their stamps. i believe this support CA should conduct his business in the main foundry, after coleman has stamped for idea. 90% of a map should be done in the main foundry and for that 90% work to be done properly a map needs support.
yes decent graphics are possible even without feedback, same goes for gameplay but how do we know that's what the people want if nobody posts? i could start a map from scratch and create something decent without a single helping post. that doesn't mean that map should be quenched.

how about a special stamp for that? something that says something like Fans Stamp

and a special C.A. to go with it??

[gimil]

Thou who ask shall not get

[bryguy]

Thou who ask shall not get

(only good response i could find....)

[greenoaks]

i refuse to enter the thread for conqueropoly. it is 40+ pages long. there is just too much for me to get my head around.

if you want people like me to give feedback archive that thread & create a new one with the main information in it like:
- the map (initial version, current version & maybe some in between)
- list of alterations/changes knocked back with description why
- list of issues you would like us to focus on

if all goes well and the map goes live then this new thread can be merged onto the end of the old thread for completeness.

We not in the busienss of making the process any more difficult that it already is. You dotn have to read all 40+ pages. Just make your point and if its already been discussed you should be informed of that

i am not going to turn up and just comment on a map. i will read it all to get a feel for what the creator is trying to achieve as well as what direction it has taken and why. only then do i offer something, assuming i have something to offer.

[yeti_c]

Your Ava always adds something to the topic...

C.

[greenoaks]

whenever i see your post directly after mine i think your ava is saying "i'll have one of those please"

[cairnswk]

This post is purely about "stats"

stats like these could be kept by a support CA. that's what i suggested in the first post.

Is DiM applying for this support CA position, coz it seems to me that DiM is the one who is sooooooooooooooo into stats (even this came from the fortnightly stats that i keep on map movements) that he thinks that everyone else should be and that possibly mapmakers worlds evolve around these stats.....as is have said before DiM, if you want to keep oodles of stats and have the time to derive such information, then be our guest....i have other things to attend to in the creative mapmaking arena, and I am sure others have likewise other issues they'd prefer to be attending to also.

As stated before, stop trying to push your expectations onto us. We are not after a masters in stats nor studying for a Phd in mapmaking.

[DiM]

This post is purely about "stats"

stats like these could be kept by a support CA. that's what i suggested in the first post.

Is DiM applying for this support CA position, coz it seems to me that DiM is the one who is sooooooooooooooo into stats (even this came from the fortnightly stats that i keep on map movements) that he thinks that everyone else should be and that possibly mapmakers worlds evolve around these stats.....as is have said before DiM, if you want to keep oodles of stats and have the time to derive such information, then be our guest....i have other things to attend to in the creative mapmaking arena, and I am sure others have likewise other issues they'd prefer to be attending to also.

As stated before, stop trying to push your expectations onto us. We are not after a masters in stats nor studying for a Phd in mapmaking.

cairns, you're killing me here. i don't want a job as a CA (because i'm stubborn, bad tempered and generally considered a jerk) and i don't want to keep stats (despite being a fan) because i simply don't have time.

and as i've previously said there wouldn't be a minimum posts per day requirement or a minimum number of posters requirement, that would be absurd. but those kind of stats would help a Support CA keep track of threads and gauge the interest level of the maps. of course stats without actually bothering to read the thread and follow it constantly mean nothing.

furthermore, i'm not pushing my expectations onto anybody as i don't have the power to do that. all i can do is suggest something debate on it and hope i will be heard. all i want is to make the process better smoother and to have better and better maps come out of the foundry furnace.

why?
because a map that is final forged and then dies there for a few months is a warning that something is wrong.
because another map that is final forged and then the map maker has an unfinished map that needs comments and requests it to be moved to main foundry
because a map that in the middle of the forge has to be restarted instead of nit-picked
because if a map maker complains his map has no support and yet a few days later he gets forged is also a warning something went wrong
because tons of maps die in the main foundry for lack of support
because other maps linger in the ideas forum for weeks despite having lots of support.

all the above are signs something is not going as planned. a map in final forge should be 99% complete and people should be flocking there anxiously awaiting the quench. a map should not die in the forge. a map should always have a group of supporters following it and helping it advance.

[AndyDufresne]

As I've often said, you don't need a position of power to help out in the Foundry. I'm sure we'd all love if someone or a group of people kept stats about maps...they'd be greatly assisting everyone. We're all a community, lets work together, eh?


--Andy

[DiM]

We're all a community, lets work together, eh?


--Andy

that's what i'm trying to do here but people consider me either a jerk, an asshole or a pompous idiot with emperor aspirations when the only thing i want is to help the foundry.

[gimil]

We're all a community, lets work together, eh?


--Andy

that's what i'm trying to do here but people consider me either a jerk, an asshole or a pompous idiot with emperor aspirations when the only thing i want is to help the foundry.

I have yet to hear anyone in the foundry say that to you . . .

[bryguy]

We're all a community, lets work together, eh?


--Andy

that's what i'm trying to do here but people consider me either a jerk, an asshole or a pompous idiot with emperor aspirations when the only thing i want is to help the foundry.

I have yet to hear anyone in the foundry say that to you . . .

i think DiM rocks...

there are to rules to be followed in this foundry

1) DiM is always right
2) If DiM is wrong, refer to rule #1

[DiM]

We're all a community, lets work together, eh?


--Andy

that's what i'm trying to do here but people consider me either a jerk, an asshole or a pompous idiot with emperor aspirations when the only thing i want is to help the foundry.

I have yet to hear anyone in the foundry say that to you . . .

really? heck there was even a thread especially created to call me a jerk or asshole i don't remember which. but i don't mind

[DiM]

i think DiM rocks...

there are to rules to be followed in this foundry

1) DiM is always right
2) If DiM is wrong, refer to rule #1

i like those rules

[gimil]

Maybe your just trying to make yourself more hard done by than you acctually are

[Kaplowitz]

really? heck there was even a thread especially created to call me a jerk or asshole i don't remember which. but i don't mind

Are you sure it wasnt made by Goalie?