McCain Clinton 08

[tzor]

surprise genius, most everything in life has unintended consequences.

That’s the problem with you liberal elite fascists, if you can’t argue the facts then insult the opponent. Hillary and Barack do that all the time to each other. Once they stop fighting each other the winner will do it to McCain because that is the only way they know how to win.

But heck if you can hide behind the cover of it being not on topic so can I. If you want to discuss it create your own thread. I don’t feel like doing it myself.

I’ll just make one point. Consider the “unintended consequences” of prohibition. Consider the “unintended consequences” of the nation wide 55 MPH speed limit. Consider the “unintended consequences” of suddenly pulling most of our troops out of Iraq. Democrats love to ignore “unintended consequences.” I don’t want perfection, I just don’t want things to get worse because someone didn’t think things through to the end. The last time that happened (HINT HINT) we invaded Iraq and look at the “unintended consequences” that followed!

[bradleybadly]

okay, i really don't want to get into it with you, cause you seem to get very angry and get very locked onto red herring details.

I'll try to calm down and not blow up at you. Snorri has warned me of this and I've had a good debate with him so I'll try to extend that to you as well. It is frustrating to have liberals such as yourself make general statements but not back them up with facts. This is why I use details and you shouldn't ignore them. It's convenient for people to just make stuff up which backs up their beliefs, but when you actually look at details it shows that reality won't back up that up.

As far as getting angry and making wild accusations.............................

surprise genius, most everything in life has unintended consequences.

i understand that aspect, but you hyper conservative nut jobs on here seem to think that perfection is possible.

So don't go lecturing others like me unless you're ready to practice what you preach.

but i'm not going to bother arguing about it for the following reasons (but go ahead and have the last word, cause i'm sure that's really important to you):

1) i don't have the time nor inclination to argue with morons who will never reach a common ground
2) it's off topic
3) you all just look for minutiae on which to try and "expose" problems with an argument while missing the entire point.

Yeah, you wanted to argue in the beginning but when people actually presented details (something you don't like) which didn't back up your generalized statements you back down. I started a thread which said that liberals just name-call when they are challenged with details. The liberals here got mad and angry, but all you're doing is proving that point by yelling 'moron'. Now you want to try and say that we're missing the entire point because we're getting bogged down with details. Yeah, the truth has a way of doing that. No wonder you won't continue because your generalized accusation flies in the face of reality.

[Snorri1234]

Consider the “unintended consequences” of suddenly pulling most of our troops out of Iraq. Democrats love to ignore “unintended consequences.”

Considering the "unintended consequences" of sending troops there in the first place (lol civil war, we didn't see that one coming!) I think we safely say that politicians in general like to ignore things. Seeing as how McCain plans to remain in Iraq untill the war is done, the unintended consequence of him probably having to raise taxes will also smoothly be ignored.

[Napoleon Ier]

Consider the “unintended consequences” of suddenly pulling most of our troops out of Iraq. Democrats love to ignore “unintended consequences.”

Considering the "unintended consequences" of sending troops there in the first place (lol civil war, we didn't see that one coming!) I think we safely say that politicians in general like to ignore things. Seeing as how McCain plans to remain in Iraq untill the war is done, the unintended consequence of him probably having to raise taxes will also smoothly be ignored.

It's a good point, but we don't want Iraq to e another Vietnam: defeat snatched from the jaws of victory by leftist media and the Congress.

[Snorri1234]

Consider the “unintended consequences” of suddenly pulling most of our troops out of Iraq. Democrats love to ignore “unintended consequences.”

Considering the "unintended consequences" of sending troops there in the first place (lol civil war, we didn't see that one coming!) I think we safely say that politicians in general like to ignore things. Seeing as how McCain plans to remain in Iraq untill the war is done, the unintended consequence of him probably having to raise taxes will also smoothly be ignored.

It's a good point, but we don't want Iraq to e another Vietnam: defeat snatched from the jaws of victory by leftist media and the Congress.

Possibly. It's just that I don't like the way people are backing him. Just admit that the Iraq-war has been a terrible mess, the best thing to do is restore order, and that restoring that order is going to take money that the government doesn't have at the moment. I just get the feeling McCain isn't admitting enough what an awfull mess Iraq really is. The pull-out mentality of the democrats really isn't any better either though, this whole things smells like the standard american way of denying it ever really happened. Most americans really just want to forget about Iraq, and the politician who can do that in the most feeling-soothing way wins.

[got tonkaed]

Possibly. It's just that I don't like the way people are backing him. Just admit that the Iraq-war has been a terrible mess, the best thing to do is restore order, and that restoring that order is going to take money that the government doesn't have at the moment. I just get the feeling McCain isn't admitting enough what an awfull mess Iraq really is. The pull-out mentality of the democrats really isn't any better either though, this whole things smells like the standard american way of denying it ever really happened. Most americans really just want to forget about Iraq, and the politician who can do that in the most feeling-soothing way wins.

While i dont really doubt the last line to be true, i do think at least among people who care enough to try and be informed about the issue the bolded seems most relevant. There is a pretty heavy price to the type of effort that would probably be required to ensure long term stability. At the moment it appears we are paying people on both sides to just not kill each other for the time being. While you cant ever make your decisions in the present entirely based on the past, digging yourself deeper into a hole indefinitely doesnt work either. And i think it is in part a case that people are starting to believe the notion that its not a great time in America in a few different capacities. To continue to aggressively seek out certain types of solutions that have potentially low prospects for success, its probably not something 21st century states should choose to do (even affluent ones)

[Joodoo]

Currently, with Obama in the lead while Clinton is falling behind, we can see that sexism may be evident in American society. If we used that ideology on the US presidential elections (and presume that Clinton defeats Obama), then McCain may have a good chance of winning.

[Frigidus]

Currently, with Obama in the lead while Clinton is falling behind, we can see that sexism may be evident in American society. If we used that ideology on the US presidential elections (and presume that Clinton defeats Obama), then McCain may have a good chance of winning.

Wha? But using that argument you could say America was racist if Clinton won. The fact that she's a presidential hopeful kind of shows a dramatic shift in the amount of sexism and racism in the country. The Northern half at least.

[kerntheconkerer]

Obama is winning the democratic race, in case you didn't realize that...

[Snorri1234]

Currently, with Obama in the lead while Clinton is falling behind, we can see that sexism may be evident in American society. If we used that ideology on the US presidential elections (and presume that Clinton defeats Obama), then McCain may have a good chance of winning.

Word, good thing that she won't win the nomination because american society is sexist.

[DaGip]

Currently, with Obama in the lead while Clinton is falling behind, we can see that sexism may be evident in American society. If we used that ideology on the US presidential elections (and presume that Clinton defeats Obama), then McCain may have a good chance of winning.

Word, good thing that she won't win the nomination because american society is sexist.

f*ck that bitch!

[silvanricky]

Now Obama's in trouble because of those remarks he made about Pennsylvanians. Is Pennsylvanians what they're really called?

[dewey316]

Now Obama's in trouble because of those remarks he made about Pennsylvanians.

In my opinion, what he said about Pensylvanians, is not his problem. The bigger issue here, is that he just said that middle America "cling" to the 1st and 2nd ammendments of the constitution, because they aren't happy about economics. He missing the whole point of this, people are not religious or support gun rights, as a crutch for something that BHO is going to somehow "fix". The issue here, is that BHO just slammed the first two ammendments of the constitution, and made it clear that anyone who chooses to excersise those 2 freedoms, are bitter and just clinging those as a way of dealing other issues. Come on, if you don't see the deeper issues with what BHO said, then I hope that you relisten to what he said. I think that any American who still beleives in the bill of rights, should take exception to what he said.

[Neoteny]

Currently, with Obama in the lead while Clinton is falling behind, we can see that sexism may be evident in American society. If we used that ideology on the US presidential elections (and presume that Clinton defeats Obama), then McCain may have a good chance of winning.

Wha? But using that argument you could say America was racist if Clinton won. The fact that she's a presidential hopeful kind of shows a dramatic shift in the amount of sexism and racism in the country. The Northern half at least.

Hoy! Piss off yankee!

[anonymous09]

I wonder who will win the democratic nomination, currently Obama is in the lead but come the convention nither will have the numbers needed to win the nomination, I wonder who will have swayed the most superdelegates to screw over the other one. Anyways I pretty sure that should if Hillary looses the nomination she'll be selected to be Obama's running mate or vice-versa. But if things don't work themselves out this is McCain's race to win. (which hopefully won't happen)

[protectedbygold]

In my opinion, what he said about Pensylvanians, is not his problem. The bigger issue here, is that he just said that middle America "cling" to the 1st and 2nd ammendments of the constitution, because they aren't happy about economics. He missing the whole point of this, people are not religious or support gun rights, as a crutch for something that BHO is going to somehow "fix". The issue here, is that BHO just slammed the first two ammendments of the constitution, and made it clear that anyone who chooses to excersise those 2 freedoms, are bitter and just clinging those as a way of dealing other issues. Come on, if you don't see the deeper issues with what BHO said, then I hope that you relisten to what he said. I think that any American who still beleives in the bill of rights, should take exception to what he said.

Kudos on that post, dewey. Yes, it's a terrible thing when Americans cling to the Bill of Rights.

[Napoleon Ier]

Currently, with Obama in the lead while Clinton is falling behind, we can see that sexism may be evident in American society. If we used that ideology on the US presidential elections (and presume that Clinton defeats Obama), then McCain may have a good chance of winning.

Wha? But using that argument you could say America was racist if Clinton won. The fact that she's a presidential hopeful kind of shows a dramatic shift in the amount of sexism and racism in the country. The Northern half at least.

Hoy! Piss off yankee!

Not this again...

[tzor]

Considering the "unintended consequences" of sending troops there in the first place (lol civil war, we didn't see that one coming!) I think we safely say that politicians in general like to ignore things. Seeing as how McCain plans to remain in Iraq untill the war is done, the unintended consequence of him probably having to raise taxes will also smoothly be ignored.

Actually sending troops into Iraq had few unintended consequences. The unintended consequences developed from the Rumsfield policy of dealing with the war's aftermath. The process of massive retaliation to former Bath party members only pissed off the Suni minority who after shooting themselves in the foot by not participating were completely kept out of the politicial process, thus allowing them to consider the foreigners of Al-Quaedia. It would take years for them to come to their senses. The lack of direct talks with the religious leader of the Shite community caused him to become an indirect puppet of the Iranian heiarchy. In fact the only group with a half way decent head on their shoulders were the Kurds.

The question is not remaining in Iraq. The question is having our men and women exposed to attack in Iraq. We have massive troops already in the middle of a war zone and barring someone getting cut on a ration can there have been no wounded from this zone. It's called South Korea, and technically we are still in a state of war with North Korea. I think McCain is pretty clear that he wants the casualty rates to go down and will do all in his power to make that so.

We can make Iraq another Vietnam. I don't think Democrats realize what we need to do to make that so. First we need a "North Vietnam." That's Iran. Then we have to give Iran over to them by simply pulling out. I don't think the rest of the region wants that to happen. Certanly not the Saudis. Syria might not exactly like it either and their alliance with Iran might break in two should that happen. In Viewnam you didn't see China and the USSR dogpile on the remains of Vietnam. You see nobody really wanted Vietnam, they just wanted the US to be stuck in it.

[tzor]

Meanwhile let's talk about Sexism and Racism. I must rise to defend the honor of my northern yankees (as did Anthony defend the honor of Brutus, for they were all honerable men). The current state of racism in the North can be seen where I live on Long Island. You had a lynch mob of teenagers storm a middle class African American's home because some yahoo faked runors that the kid was fooling around with some white guy's daughter.

In defense of his own home (isn't a man's home his castle) his firearm is accidentally discharged. He is arrested and is sentenced to time for the offense. The white (Italian) population is up in arms about the low sentence. They even threatened (they claimed they didn't) a number of African American families with even more violence.

North or South racism is alive and well in the US of A.

[gdeangel]

Tzor - Put up a link... I never heard anything like what you mentioned in about 20+ years. Yah, teenagers (regardless of race - unless we're talking about Asians ) band and get into violent sh!t, but that's mainly b/c they either aren't getting laid, or aren't getting laid by whoever they want to get laid by... and if your example played out like any of the situations I've encountered, then it's basically another example of the shortcomings of firearm regulation/education (note - I did not say control or ban) in the USA.

...but anyway, on the topic... Clinton couldn't switch... she's polled back and worth with O'Bama as the MOST LIBERAL sitting senator! Republicans would never show up at the polls... they'd write in for Huckabee! Could McCain break party and pick someone outside the establishment... sure... maybe someone like a Bloomberg... I don't know... whoever it is will be a lot younger than MAC and either be a play for the core right (I hope not) or as a stop loss against defecting O'bama cross-over voters. If your advising McCain, I think the call is to follow Dubya and pull the hard-right.

Now here's a thought... could you imagine a Spitzer / McCain ticket (obviously before the Gov was ousted... playing up the "reformer" angle)?

[Neoteny]

Hoy! Piss off yankee!

Not this again...

Hoy! Piss off Frenchie!

[tzor]

Tzor - Put up a link... I never heard anything like what you mentioned in about 20+ years.

NPR REPORT.

All Things Considered, February 26, 2008 · Late in 2007, John White of Miller Place, N.Y., was convicted of manslaughter.

White is African-American. Miller Place is a largely white community on Long Island, 60 miles from New York City. White commutes daily to the city for work.

The story of how he shot Daniel "Dano" Cicciaro Jr., a white teenager, in front of the Whites' spacious suburban house was all over the news in December — how White claimed it was accidental and how Cicciaro's friends and family thought it was murder.

Calvin Trillin, the author of an article in The New Yorker about the case, says the story illustrates how profoundly segregated a community such as Miller Place really is.

Miller Place is 0.4 percent black, and a recent study concluded that Long Island is "the single most segregated suburban community in the United States," Trillin says.

"People saw what had happened completely differently according to what race they were. Some white people, including Dano's parents, were outraged that John White wasn't indicted for murder. And some supporters of White thought that if the races had been reversed — if it had been a white homeowner and four hostile teenagers yelling at him — there wouldn't have been any charge at all," he says.

Trillin discusses the events that led a group of white teenagers, including Cicciaro, to drive to the Whites' house late on an August evening in 2006 and threaten White and his youngest son, Aaron, the shooting and its aftermath.

White is appealing the guilty verdict and is awaiting sentencing, which is scheduled for March 19.

Here is something from the New Yorker.

[Carnifex]

If a Democrat would join McCain it would have to be Liberman.

[CoffeeCream]

If a Democrat would join McCain it would have to be Liberman.

Yeah it seems the two of them are together all the time anyway. Didn't McCain also used to hang out with Bill Bradley because they were both for campaign finance reform?

[GabonX]

If a Democrat would join McCain it would have to be Liberman.

Isn't Liberman (sp?) an independent now teechnicaly?