Dirty Dirty Sluts

[Harijan]

i categorically disagree. Given the fact that roles of men and women are changing in other strata of behavior it seems rather incorrect to suggest there is still a necessity for a certain aspect, especially because this behavior is of specific import.

I cringe when people bring up the idea that there should be a double standard. A classic case of people being uncomfortable with the idea that people may like sex.

important edit caveat....while it may not disagree it is in part important given some of the cultural milleu we find ourselves in, i disagree that this importance makes it right or attaches permance to it....seemed worth mentioning.

Given, we do not know what would happen if we could ditch social sexual standards.

To murky the water a bit, there is a subtle difference between liking sex and having sex, and there are different social standards attached to each.

I do not believe that in western culture it has ever been forbidden, faux pas, or frowned upon for a woman to like sex, although it has almost always been frowned upon to actually have lots of sex with multiple partners for both women and men in all but a few relatively small and unimportant social groups (like high school sports teams).

As with most social standards, following this path to its logical conclusion reveals how the norm came to exist. Prior to reliable birth control women were justifiably pushed away from sex. Just 50 years ago a promiscuous woman likely ended up pregnant with no recourse. This put a huge burden on that woman's social support system to care for the child. Men simply do not run the same risk with their promiscuity. Fair? absolutely not. Reality? absolutely.

Now, reliable birth control has decoupled sex and parental responsibility. Now you only need to be mature enough to use a condom, not mature enough to be a parent.

In addition, the social structure that pressures young people with sexual norms has also largely vanished.

As a result, sexual activity among young people has skyrocketed, while teen pregnancy steadily decreases.

How will this impact our society? I think it is too soon to tell.

Historically, (conservatives, and religious people will love this) there is a correlation (not causation) between a society's sexual proclivity and the same society's decline (Diamond - Collapse 2005, too lazy to find the pages).

but that was all before birth control and technology. Who knows what will happen this time around.

[william18]

Here's an idea, STOP HAVING SEX

[Harijan]

Here's an idea, STOP HAVING SEX

Dude, you need to get laid.

[Snorri1234]

Here's an idea, STOP HAVING SEX

Because telling them that will work?

[Guiscard]

I do not believe that in western culture it has ever been forbidden, faux pas, or frowned upon for a woman to like sex, although it has almost always been frowned upon to actually have lots of sex with multiple partners for both women and men in all but a few relatively small and unimportant social groups (like high school sports teams).

I'd argue that that was far from the truth, to be honest. I mean, the female orgasm wasn't even acknowledged to exist until last century. Plenty of diary sources and doctors notes tell us that if a women was shown to be 'enjoying' sex openly it was seen as unhealthy. Women were taken to the doctors for hysteria. Interestingly, masturbation was seen as a cure for such a disease, although again it was an unhealthy and dirty act performed by the doctor using medical equipment.

[MeDeFe]

I do not believe that in western culture it has ever been forbidden, faux pas, or frowned upon for a woman to like sex, although it has almost always been frowned upon to actually have lots of sex with multiple partners for both women and men in all but a few relatively small and unimportant social groups (like high school sports teams).

I'd argue that that was far from the truth, to be honest. I mean, the female orgasm wasn't even acknowledged to exist until last century. Plenty of diary sources and doctors notes tell us that if a women was shown to be 'enjoying' sex openly it was seen as unhealthy. Women were taken to the doctors for hysteria. Interestingly, masturbation was seen as a cure for such a disease, although again it was an unhealthy and dirty act performed by the doctor using medical equipment.

Wasn't the vibrator invented under the reign of Queen Victoria as a therapeutic device? I'm too lazy to check...

[Guiscard]

I do not believe that in western culture it has ever been forbidden, faux pas, or frowned upon for a woman to like sex, although it has almost always been frowned upon to actually have lots of sex with multiple partners for both women and men in all but a few relatively small and unimportant social groups (like high school sports teams).

I'd argue that that was far from the truth, to be honest. I mean, the female orgasm wasn't even acknowledged to exist until last century. Plenty of diary sources and doctors notes tell us that if a women was shown to be 'enjoying' sex openly it was seen as unhealthy. Women were taken to the doctors for hysteria. Interestingly, masturbation was seen as a cure for such a disease, although again it was an unhealthy and dirty act performed by the doctor using medical equipment.

Wasn't the vibrator invented under the reign of Queen Victoria as a therapeutic device? I'm too lazy to check...

Something like that, yeh. They had steam driven ones and clockworck ones and suchlike. Ye Olde Rampant Rabbit, With Improv-ed Steam-Driven Motion for the Speedy and Efficient Relief of Female Tension and General Marital Malaise.

[Harijan]

I'd argue that that was far from the truth, to be honest. I mean, the female orgasm wasn't even acknowledged to exist until last century.

I am sorry, but your statement is simply not true. There are numerous citations discussing the female orgasm going back hundreds, maybe even thousands of years. Just because the medical community was controlled by a very small portion of an elite class does not mean it represented social norm or societal belief.

Last century you also had the first widely accepted pornographic novel printed, you had porn theater openly playing in London and France with everyone from kings and queens to commoners in attendance.

In the 17th century you had the sexual liberation championed John Wilmot and others.

The point is that in almost every era of western culture you have numerous and contradictory examples of sexual repression and liberation. We cannot focus on only the side that supports our argument.

Plenty of diary sources and doctors notes tell us that if a women was shown to be 'enjoying' sex openly it was seen as unhealthy.

Source please. there is an obvious double standard in your argument. What doctor in the 18th or even 19th century would openly admit to watching people have sex. If the context is that a women should not let her partner see that she is enjoying sex, that would be different, either way I would like to get your source.

Women were taken to the doctors for hysteria. Interestingly, masturbation was seen as a cure for such a disease, although again it was an unhealthy and dirty act performed by the doctor using medical equipment.

Your citation of hysteria while true is slightly out of context. It is important to note that Hysteria is no longer a recognized disease, and that when it was in use, it was a catch-all disease with a list of symptoms a mile long. when the symptoms included the following:

1. Shortness of breath
2. Inability to achieve orgasm through intercourse
3. Sexual fantasies

One popular treatment was manual stimulation until ejaculate was observed.

Also, there's no evidence that prurience drove MDs' advocacy of manual massage — on the contrary, they eagerly farmed out the task to subordinates (interestingly usually female nurses or midwives). Or turned to technology. Water jets were used this way 150 years ago; following the development of windup and steam-powered massage devices.

Your description of "dirty" and "unhealthy" were hotly debated medical opinions of the day, and while the dirty and unhealthy camp seemed to have won out for 50-75 years, medical masturbation was still widely practiced as late as the 1920's.

I cite this example particularly because of the cognitive dissonance it creates between modern views of historical sexual norms, and the historical record. If masturbation was considered a disease causing, dirty, and unhealthy activity, why then was it widely used (and successfully so) as a cure?

( http://www.straightdope.com/columns/071207.html )

Sexual norms in western culture fluctuate greatly over time and from area to area. In addition, what was written about sex, and what was socially accepted concerning sex are rarely in agreement in the history of western culture. The disagreement between official views on sex, and historical accounts of sexual activity and exploits simply do not agree.

There is a great deal of historical examples from virtually every time period of vast social-sexual freedom and social-sexual repression in western culture.

I am not saying that sexual repression never existed, but it is possible to argue that popular modern interpretation of historical sexual norms is somewhat dissident from the historical record.

[suggs]

Clearly, the female orgasm doesnt exist. They have no penises, so how could they?

Oh. You mean, i was just shit

[Iliad]

Here's an idea, STOP HAVING SEX

Dude, you need to get laid.

Best call

[cajun_tripod]

Can't we give every high school student a paper towel to keep in their coat pocket so they can wipe their junk after they do it? I think their health is worth the financial investment in a mega-roll of Bounty.

I vote for clitorii.

[got tonkaed]

harijan, i dont really disagree with much of what youve said, though id argue perhaps against the idea there was a bit of a frowning upon for women to like sex.

however the important thing of this post is how did you pull that out of Collapse? I dont remember that and i probably only read it a few months ago.

[Harijan]

Grrr, making me go look up pages. I will find it and post. gimme a few days. Work is hell right now.

[suggs]

Dear Dirty Sluts,
I hope you are well.

Please come to Essex, England where Suggs will pay for anything you want in exchange for a handjob.

I hope the weather is fine there.
Yours sincerely,
Absolutely Gagging For Some Hoo-Hoo.

[got tonkaed]

Grrr, making me go look up pages. I will find it and post. gimme a few days. Work is hell right now.

ah no worries...i was just surprised that your were able to recall it.

[Minister Masket]

To be brutally honest, the situation isn't too cheery over here in Blighty either. Although it t'is improving. Apparently.

[Harijan]

Grrr, making me go look up pages. I will find it and post. gimme a few days. Work is hell right now.

ah no worries...i was just surprised that your were able to recall it.

Now that you called it into question, I have to make sure I am right.

This is why I stick to flame wars, the lackeys over there don't know how to argue properly. It makes beating on them so much more enjoyable.