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Was 9/11 An Inside Job?

 
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:11 am

lol@NIST


NIST Admits Total Collapse Of Twin Towers Unexplainable
Implicitly acknowledges controlled demolition only means by which towers could have fallen at free fall speed
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Tuesday, October 16, 2007



The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

In a recent letter (PDF link) to 9/11 victim's family representatives Bill Doyle and Bob McIlvaine, NIST states, "We are unable to provide a full explanation of the total collapse."

A 10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the "collapse initiation" proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.


In addition, NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.

"NIST'S 10,000-page report purports to explain what it calls "collapse initiation" -- the loss of several floors' vertical support," writes Kevin Barrett of Scholars for 9/11 Truth. "In order to dream up this preposterous scenario, NIST had to ignore its own tests that showed that virtually none of the steel got hotter than 500 degrees f. It had to claim that somehow the planes took out many core columns, despite the fact that only a direct hit by an engine would have been likely to do so, and that the chances of this happening even once are fairly low. It had to preposterously allege that the plane that nicked the corner of the South Tower took out more core columns than the one that hit the North Tower almost dead center. It had to tweak all the parameters till they screamed bloody murder and say that the steel was far weaker than it actually was, the fire was far hotter than it actually was, the sagging was far greater than it actually was, and so on. And so NIST hallucinated a computer-generated fantasy scenario for "collapse initiation"--the failure of a few floors."

"But how do you get from the failure of a few floors to total collapse at free-fall speed of the entire structure? The short answer: You don't. Anyone with the slightest grasp of the laws of physics understands that even if all of the vertical supports on a few floors somehow failed catastrophically at exactly the same moment--a virtually impossible event, but one necessary to explain why the Towers would come straight down rather than toppling sideways--the top part of the building could not fall THROUGH the still-intact, highly robust lower part of the building, straight through the path of most resistance, just as fast as it would have fallen through thin air."

"Thus total free-fall collapse, even given NIST's ridiculous "initiation" scenario, is utterly impossible. The probability of it happening is exactly equal to the probability of the whole building suddenly falling upward and landing on the moon," concludes Barrett.
NIST have yet to properly address the sudden freefall collapse of WTC Building 7, which imploded on the late afternoon of 9/11 despite not being hit by a jetliner.

In August 2006, NIST promised to scientifically evaluate whether explosive devices could have contributed to the 47-story building's collapse but no answers have been forthcoming.

In August of this year, James Quintiere, Ph.D., former Chief of the Fire Science Division of the National Institute of Standards and Technology, called for an independent inquiry into NIST's investigation of the collapse of the twin towers.

Quintiere said NIST's conclusions were "questionable", that they failed to follow standard scientific procedures and that their failure to address Building 7 belied the fact that the investigation was incomplete.

Thanks for coming out!

Popular Mechanics (for kids) next?!
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Postby Frigidus on Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:12 am

Credit to Backglass for finding this. When common sense doesn't work, he does.

Backglass wrote:From the N.I.S.T. FAQ:

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that “… such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.…”

The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation.

The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. The massive damage was caused by the large mass of the aircraft, their high speed and momentum, which severed the relatively light steel of the exterior columns on the impact floors. The results of the NIST impact analyses matched well with observations (from photos and videos and analysis of recovered WTC steel) of exterior damage and of the amount and location of debris exiting from the buildings. This agreement supports the premise that the structural damage to the towers was due to the aircraft impact and not to any alternative forces.

2. Why did NIST not consider a “controlled demolition” hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the “pancake theory” hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a “progressive collapse” after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
diagram of composit wtc floor system

Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

NIST’s findings also do not support the “controlled demolition” theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

* the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

* the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

3. How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar “puffs” were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

5. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC Towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building’s collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

“… the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.”

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?


In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was “certified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours” is simply not true.

8. We know that the sprinkler systems were activated because survivors reported water in the stairwells. If the sprinklers were working, how could there be a 'raging inferno' in the WTC towers?

Both the NIST calculations and interviews with survivors and firefighters indicated that the aircraft impacts severed the water pipes that carried the water to the sprinkler systems. The sprinklers were not operating on the principal fire floors.

However, there were ample sources of the water in the stairwells. The water pipes ran vertically within the stairwells. Moreover, there would have been copious water from the broken restroom supply lines and from the water tanks that supplied the initial water for the sprinklers. Thus, it is not surprising that evacuating occupants encountered a lot of water.

Even if the automatic sprinklers had been operational, the sprinkler systems—which were installed in accordance with the prevailing fire safety code—were designed to suppress a fire that covered as much as 1,500 square feet on a given floor. This amount of coverage is capable of controlling almost all fires that are likely to occur in an office building. On Sept. 11, 2001, the jet-fuel ignited fires quickly spread over most of the 40,000 square feet on several floors in each tower. This created infernos that could not have been suppressed even by an undamaged sprinkler system, much less one that had been appreciably degraded.

9. If thick black smoke is characteristic of an oxygen-starved, lower temperature, less intense fire, why was thick black smoke exiting the WTC towers when the fires inside were supposed to be extremely hot?

Nearly all indoor large fires, including those of the principal combustibles in the WTC towers, produce large quantities of optically thick, dark smoke. This is because, at the locations where the actual burning is taking place, the oxygen is severely depleted and the combustibles are not completely oxidized to colorless carbon dioxide and water.

The visible part of fire smoke consists of small soot particles whose formation is favored by the incomplete combustion associated with oxygen-depleted burning. Once formed, the soot from the tower fires was rapidly pushed away from the fires into less hot regions of the building or directly to broken windows and breaks in the building exterior. At these lower temperatures, the soot could no longer burn away. Thus, people saw the thick dark smoke characteristic of burning under oxygen-depleted conditions.

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?

NIST believes that the persons seen were away from any strong heat source and most likely in an area that at the time was a point where the air for combustion was being drawn into the building to support the fires. Note that people were observed only in the openings in WTC 1.

According to the International Standard ISO/TS 13571, people will be in severe pain within seconds if they are near the radiant heat level generated by a large fire. Thus, it is not surprising that none of the photographs show a person standing in those gaps where there also was a sizable fire.

The fire behavior following the aircraft impacts is described in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. In general, there was little sustained fire near the area where the aircraft hit the towers. Immediately upon impact of the aircraft, large fireballs from the atomized jet fuel consumed all the local oxygen. (This in itself would have made those locations rapidly unlivable.) The fireballs receded quickly and were followed by fires that grew inside the tower where there was a combination of combustible material, air and an ignition source. Little combustible material remained near the aircraft entry gashes since the aircraft "bulldozed" much of it toward the interior of the building. Also, some of the contents fell through the breaks in the floor to the stories below.

Therefore, the people observed in these openings must have survived the aircraft impact and moved—once the fireballs had dissipated—to the openings where the temperatures were cooler and the air was clearer than in the building interior.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition. :)

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released for public comment by the end of 2007 and that the final report will be released in early 2008.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

* An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

* Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

* Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.
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Re: DaGip, Please Post 9/11 Al-CIA-da evidence, please

Postby DaGip on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:39 pm

Dekloren wrote:Don't forget to mention the "passport" they found of the "hijacker" that was later found alive. The amazing passport that flew out of his pocket, out of the plane, through a brimestones fireball, and landed on the ground unscathed.

Also the other about 6 of the "hijackers" found alive.

Thanks!


Dude, you got me wrong...I just get sick of talking about 9-11 threads, it's been done a milliion times already, and people just get sick and upset over it, so, I decided not to bring the subject up unless I could find crucial absolute evidence. There are plenty of threads that were made on the subject, and I am sure I have watched almost all the vids and read all the sites...I mean, the conspiracy stuff sounds intriguing and as George Carlin says: "It's just fun, it's good speculation..." But reality is that we need to have absolute proof before we start saying the government did it, or Bush/Cheney did it.

Personally, I feel that something isn't right (something more than just 19 Arab kids with boxcutters running airplanes into American economic and military targets), but you can't just assert that Bush is guilty without the evidence.

Another thing too is that it has been said that conspiracy theories are a natural way for people to deal with an incredibly tragic event such as 9-11. We want to not believe that our government could have failed us, so we start jumping into creating some type of spectacular scenario (the government used thermate, UFOs used energy weapons, CNN broadcast computer cartoon planes while missles were fired...). Like a securtiy blanket, we hold on to these dark enveloping possibilites (some of which are completely bizarre) as if they were the truth.

I try to stick with what we know as the true evidence, and do you know what I have found...one possible seed of hope for the conspiracy theories, one piece of tangible evidence that the government's story does not pan out.

Please read this thread, and you will know what I am talking about:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... falls+flat

I looked this evidence up, because like you, my freind Xtra was always bringing up the subject, he thought it was important for everyone to know that there might be some weight to all this conspiracy jive...so he said something about the NIST refuting the government's pancake theory. I dug it up, and indeed Xtra was right. So, I posted it. I posted the evidence that I found, not just the hypothesis or the theories...I mean, I can write up a pretty good story that sounds plausible, but when we are trying to get to the truth, we have to do it empirically and with evidence.

But, for the most part, the NIST (who happens to be consisted of the top engineers in the country) picks apart the conspiracy theories, except for this one crucial link to the puzzle.

But as of to date, I have found no more such crucial pieces to be had, so I just don't talk about 9-11 conspiracy stuff that often anymore.

Currently, I have embraced George Carlin's philosophy on the whole issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pow5_UYKaJ8

It doesn't mean that I disagree with what you have to say, I just want more proof than what is being given. So I don't mind reading what you have to say (as long as you are saying something and not just sending me off to some unknown website or 2hr long videos without first explaining the video...such as my other freind SolidLuigi who introduced me to Richard Gage, a very compelling video from an expert in his field...you should read some of the SolidLuigi posts, hopefully he will come into the discussion as well, but he probably feels the same as I do, no need to keep rehashing the subject, because this debate will continue until the end of time).

Watch this 2 hour video and also read this thread, if you haven't done so already:

http://911blogger.com/node/10025

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... 11&start=0

The biggest problem with the whole evidence issue is that most of this evidence is located on websites that are not entirely considered reputtable. Most of your debaters are going to want evidence pulled from credible sources (such as the NIST refuting the pancake theory I presented you or something pulled from a highly respected news source).

And like Neutrino said, if you and I are not engineers or the like...we are just wasting our time quoting experts, of which, I couldn't really tell you if they were an expert or not, as I am only going by what the internet is telling me.

The truth is that there are a lot of smart scholars that have started this Truth Movement...the question is, are they just mistaken? Or do they actually have something here. Or, perhaps, it is something in between, as they are not entirely privy to all the facts that happened that day, and therefore are forced to give speculation (all be it, an expert one).

I am not going to present evidence to you, because I do not have the burden of proof. You were the one that came into the my thread about Bush sucking and started the whole 9-11 stuff. So I asked you to leave my Bush destroying the economy thread alone and start your own thread to debate this 9-11 conspiracy subject.

But you were not listening to me, so I posted the thread for you, just so my Bush IS Killing Us! thread wouldn't be bombarded with 9-11 conpiracy theories, as the orginal intent of the thread was to discuss Bush's budget that is going to leave Americans completely broke for the next fifty years or so. I guess I should have worded that thread better, but when you started posting stuff about 9-11, I tried to rectify the situation by creating another thread for you to debate Neutrino.

But your debate last night was just consisting of cutting and pasting websites and videos...do you even realize how many times we all have seen this same scenerio play out. It just gets a little sickening to some of us, if not most of us. But I don't mind listening to what you have to say, as long as you present your evidence in a well thought out manner, not just cutting and pasting. I mean, this is a forum after all. Just go over your evidence and type out what you are trying to say.

I can always do my own research, but sometimes it is intriguing to hear someone actually explain why they believe such and such or why they think this video is relevant.

I hope you understand that I am really not the one to debate on this subject, you are better off debating with Neutrino or Blackglass. My only beef with you is the way you are trying to present your conspiracy theory.

Just go over your evidence, think about it, think about what your opposers well use as a counter, and type out what you are trying to get us to hear.

That is all I am trying to say (this post was way longer than I wanted...geesh!)
Army of GOD wrote:This thread is now about my large penis
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Postby Snorri1234 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:43 pm

....Doesn't like the government have acces to the fucking secret service files anyway? So why not make a better plan to destroy them?
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Postby DaGip on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:58 pm

Dekloren wrote:
DaGip wrote:I think I am going to get an engineering degree, just so I can be qualified to debate this very subject! :lol:



10,000 page scientific study only offers theories as to how the "collapse initiation" proceeded and fails to address how it was possible for part of a WTC structure to fall through the path of most resistance at freefall speed, completely violating the accepted laws of physics.

All you need to know, my good man.


So now you are an expert engineer?
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:40 pm

Don't need to be.

The towers, and building 7, all fell into the path of most resistance, yet still falling at freefall speed.

Physics says no. Not without explosives blowing out the floors, allowing it to fall at freefall speed. It's basic.
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:01 pm

NIST admitted their ten thousand page was a fraud.

I laugh at anyone who brings NIST up into this.

You needed NIST to say the pancake theory is retarded?

Floors can't collapse on top of each other, while going at freefall speed. It's common sense.

Those buildings fell in the path of greatest resistance, BUT NO RESISTANCE was met. Where were the 100 floors beneth??? The only way those buildings fall at freefall speed, symmetrically, is if all the massive joints and trusses and supports ALL fail simotaneously.

The only way that happens......*Gasp*

And I do really appreciate your posts!
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Postby Neoteny on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:46 pm

Where's autoload when you need him?

This thread is...

Anyway, I give it a 4.5 out of 5. More than a good chuckle. Almost a belly laugh.
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Postby suggs on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:50 pm

Thank god. Once more, I have stumbled across the truth. Who would have thought that every thing on the internet is true.
Plus, I read today that Adolf is working in a chip shop in Venezuala.
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:54 pm

Phsyics is just a conspiracy tool!!!


Laugh it up, sheep!
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Postby suggs on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:57 pm

Yes, physics cant be tested by empirical evidence. What a bummer.
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Postby Neoteny on Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:58 pm

Dekloren wrote:Phsyics is just a conspiracy tool!!!


Laugh it up, sheep!


Physics is for the birds.
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:26 pm

Alex Jones calling 9/11 on July 25, 2001

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGtOFudmHG8
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Postby Neutrino on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:19 pm

Dekloren wrote:Clown.

Neutrino wrote:"Thermite simply does not produce enough gas to produce the clouds apparently seen. It doesn't produce enough kinetic energy to embed a 20 ton beam in an adjacent building, unless present in enough quantity to destroy the beams through its sheer weight. Mixing conventional explosives in makes no sense, either.""


Also, if thermite or conventional explosives don't have the energy to do that, a falling building does???

You just proved it yourself, man.

You seem half intelligent, use it.


Sure a building does. There's a lot of energy locked up in a falling building. Easily enough to send a large beam flying. True, the actual vectors involved would have been rather unlikely, but I would imagine there were enough beams in both the TT to make it statistically likely.
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Postby Frigidus on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:39 pm

Dekloren wrote:NIST admitted their ten thousand page was a fraud.

I laugh at anyone who brings NIST up into this.

You needed NIST to say the pancake theory is retarded?

Floors can't collapse on top of each other, while going at freefall speed. It's common sense.

Those buildings fell in the path of greatest resistance, BUT NO RESISTANCE was met. Where were the 100 floors beneth??? The only way those buildings fall at freefall speed, symmetrically, is if all the massive joints and trusses and supports ALL fail simotaneously.

The only way that happens......*Gasp*

And I do really appreciate your posts!


It wasn't though. Problem solved.
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Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:44 pm

Dekloren wrote:NIST admitted their ten thousand page was a fraud.

I laugh at anyone who brings NIST up into this.

You needed NIST to say the pancake theory is retarded?

Floors can't collapse on top of each other, while going at freefall speed. It's common sense.

Those buildings fell in the path of greatest resistance, BUT NO RESISTANCE was met. Where were the 100 floors beneth??? The only way those buildings fall at freefall speed, symmetrically, is if all the massive joints and trusses and supports ALL fail simotaneously.

The only way that happens......*Gasp*

And I do really appreciate your posts!

This has been said many times before. Not only did the fuel spread and then caused the steel to weaken(not melt) the towers didn't fall at freefall speed unless debris had rockets attached to them
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Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:52 pm

Dekloren wrote:Um???

Those links don't contain videos.

Of course you don't care about building 7.

Unexplainable other than with a controlled demolition.


A New York Times article
theorizes that diesel fuel tanks were responsible for the collapse of Building 7 of the WTC. It collapsed at 5:20 p.m. on 9/11, even though it was farther away from the Twin Towers than many other buildings that remained standing (see (5:20 p.m.) September 11, 2001). It was the first time a steel-reinforced high-rise in the US had ever collapsed in a fire. One of the fuel tanks had been installed in 1999 (see June 8, 1999) as part of a new “Command Center” for Mayor Rudolph Giuliani. [New York Times, 3/2/2002; Dow Jones Business News, 9/10/2002] However, in interviews, several Fire Department officers who were on the scene say they were not aware of any combustible liquid pool fires in WTC 7. [Fire Engineering, 9/2002] And, according to the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), between 11:30 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. on 9/11, “No diesel smells [were] reported from the exterior, stairwells, or lobby areas” of WTC 7. [National Institute of Standards and Technology, 6/2004, pp. L-22 ] Curiously, given all the Wall Street scandals later in the year, Building 7 housed the SEC files related to numerous Wall Street investigations, as well as other federal investigative files. All the files for approximately 3,000 to 4,000 SEC cases were destroyed. Some were backed up in other places, but many were not, especially those classified as confidential. [New York Law Journal, 9/17/2001] Lost files include documents that could show the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy. [Street, 8/9/2002] The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission estimates over 10,000 cases will be affected. [New York Law Journal, 9/14/2001] The Secret Service had its largest field office, with more than 200 employees, in WTC 7 and also lost investigative files. Says one agent: “All the evidence that we stored at 7 World Trade, in all our cases, went down with the building.” [Tech TV, 7/23/2002] The IRS and Department of Defense were also tenants, along with the CIA, which, it has been revealed, had a secret office in Building 7. [CNN, 11/4/2001; New York Times, 11/4/2001; Federal Emergency Management Agency, 5/1/2002, pp. 5-2; New York Magazine, 3/20/2006] A few days later, the head of the WTC collapse investigation says he “would possibly consider examining” the collapse of Building 7, but by this time all the rubble has already been removed and destroyed. [US Congress, 3/6/2002]
Entity Tags: WorldCom, US Department of Defense, World Trade Center, Secret Service, Securities and Exchange Commission, Citibank, Internal Revenue Service, Central Intelligence Agency

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/enti ... y=worldcom

You know what I hate more than conspiracy theorists? Fucking journalists pretending to be experts. They're not!
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Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:55 pm

Dekloren wrote:It's almost 5 am.

I'm tired.

I don't care right now to spend a half hour writing "something intelligent" especially when you disregard any evidence and especially building 7.

Why did it fall???

How??

Does the above paragraph not give good enough reasons for it to be demolished??

Oh, and don't forget Larry Silverstein saying, "We decided to pull it", referring to building 7. Pull is a term used from demolitions.
Google Larry Silverstein.

You know why people hate you guys? Because this has all been done before. This has been explained.

If I remember correctly he said pull as in pull it down with cables so that casualties would be minimised
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:23 pm

Hahaha

When the building and area was evacuated hours before??

Don't forget the first responders that admit hearing a countdown on the their radios as 7 came down.

A little about Silverstein:

Deal of the Year: World Trade Center, New York, NY

Weighing in at $3.2 billion, the acquisition of the 99-year leasehold of the World Trade Center was the largest of the year. "Notwithstanding the emotional difficulty of celebrating anything related to the World Trade Center is the fact that upon completion of its acquisition by Larry Silverstein, it was clearly the deal of the year for the industry, and now more than ever, a deal of [a] lifetime for Silverstein" said Ken Zakin, managing director at Insignia/ESG. [iiRealEstate]


Silverstein Makes a Huge
Profit off of the 9/11 Attacks

Six months before the 9/11 attacks the World Trade Center was "privatized" by being leased to a private sector developer. The lease was purchased by the Silverstein Group for $3.2 billion. "This is a dream come true," Larry Silverstein said. "We will be in control of a prized asset, and we will seek to develop its potential, raising it to new heights."

But the World Trade Towers were not the real estate plum we are led to believe.

From an economic standpoint, the trade center -- subsidized since its inception -- has never functioned, nor was it intended to function, unprotected in the rough-and-tumble real estate marketplace. [BusinessWeek]

How could Silverstein Group have been ignorant of this?

Also, the towers required some $200 million in renovations and improvements, most of which related to removal and replacement of building materials declared to be health hazards in the years since the towers were built.

It was well-known by the city of New York that the WTC was an asbestos bombshell. For years, the Port Authority treated the building like an aging dinosaur, attempting on several occasions to get permits to demolish the building for liability reasons, but being turned down due the known asbestos problem. Further, it was well-known the only reason the building was still standing until 9/11 was because it was too costly to disassemble the twin towers floor by floor since the Port Authority was prohibited legally from demolishing the buildings. [Arctic Beacon]

Other New York developers had been driven into bankruptcy by the costly mandated renovations, and $200 million represented an entire year's worth of revenues from the World Trade Towers.

The perfect collapse of the twin towers changed the picture.

Under a pending agreement, a developer and his investors will get back most of the down payment that they made to lease the World Trade Center just six weeks before a terrorist attack destroyed the twin towers. Developer Larry Silverstein and investors Lloyd Goldman and Joseph Cayre are nearing a deal that would give them about $98 million of their original investment of $124 million, The New York Times reported Saturday. [MontereyHerald 11/22/2003]


Instead of renovation, Silverstein is rebuilding, funded by the insurance coverage on the property which 'fortuitously' covered acts of terrorism. Even better, Silverstein filed TWO insurance claims for the maximum amount of the policy, based on the two, in Silverstein's view, separate attacks. The total potential payout is $7.1 billion, more than enough to build a fabulous new complex and leave a hefty profit for the Silverstein Group, including Larry Silverstein himself.

As reported in The Washington Post, the insurance company, Swiss Re, has gone to court to argue that the 9/11 disaster was only one attack, not two and that therefore the insurance payout should be limited to $3.55 billion, still enough to rebuild the complex.

Update: WTC Leaseholder May Collect Up To $4.6B

A federal jury on Monday ruled that the assault on the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center was in fact two occurrences for insurance purposes. The finding in U.S. District Court in Manhattan means leaseholder Larry Silverstein may collect up to $4.6 billion, according to reports. [Forbes.com 12/06/04]


I bet you didn't know about the renovations that HAD to be done on the WTC due to the asbestos "fireproofing". The towers were starting to become a burden, losing money, had alot of vacancies...

Why put more money into it, when *Gasp*

YOU CAN MAKE 7 BILLION ON IT.
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Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:27 pm

I've got a question for you: what about all those eye-witnesses who claimed they didn't see anything? Why the double standards? Why do all eyewitness who thought they heard something or saw something are correct but all eyewitness who didn't are wrong?
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:33 pm

Are you stupid??

Did you not see the giant fireball?

I guess that didn't expend the majority of the fuel.

Because, you know, jet fuel runs away from fire and doesn't catch and doesn't burn up quickly.

The smoke coming out of the towers was a thick, black smoke, insisting on a cool-burning, oxygen starved fire.

"NIST had to ignore its own tests that showed that virtually none of the steel got hotter than 500 degrees"

The buildings didn't fall at freefall speed?

Watch a video of them being demolished...

The towers were 1350 and 1360 feet tall. So let's start by using our trusty free-fall equation to see how long it should take an object to free-fall from the towers' former height.

Distance = 1/2 x Gravity x Time(squared)

or

2 x Distance = Gravity x Time(squared)

Time(squared) = (2 x Distance) / Gravity

Time(squared) = 2710 / 32 = 84.7


Time = 9.2

Enormous advancing dust clouds obscured the collapses, making it impossible to calculate the collapse times through visual evidence, but analysis of seismic data from the nearby Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory at Columbia University shows that the north tower collapsed in 12.74 seconds, and that the duration of the south tower collapse was 10.52 seconds.

Or you can watch a video of the controlled demolition and count yourself.

Also, funny how no one has produced evidence that it was Osama Bin Hidin???
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Postby unriggable on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:37 pm

Dekloren wrote:The buildings didn't fall at freefall speed?


Look at the debris falling around the towers, the building collapses slightly slower than that. So no.

EDIT: Osama himself said he did it, and all those who hit the towers were affiliated with him. Case closed...
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Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:40 pm

Please read what the other person says because I already said what unriggable said and it really sounds as if you're just copying pasting without even looking or just skimming what the other people are saying
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:51 pm

Iliad wrote:Please read what the other person says because I already said what unriggable said and it really sounds as if you're just copying pasting without even looking or just skimming what the other people are saying


Just like them Iranians said they were gonna blow up the US ships.

Just like that passpart cited in the first post..
Just like the UNSCATHED bullet found not even on Govener Connoley's stretcher, that apprently went through like 12 things.
Gulf of Tonkin....

Need I go on?

Do you people not comprehend the fabrication of evidence??

Gawd...

The debris falling?? Why was there debris flying everywhere in an explosive fashion???

Duuhhhhhh
It's fantastic how now one attacks the facts, but come up with more conspiracies. Then call me a conspiracy theorist!

What a joke!!
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Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:55 pm

Yes.

I find that very interesting.

I have clips of people right at the WTC saying they saw no plane. Even a reporter on CNN says he didn't see one..

Just interesting stuff.

I'm not saying there was no plane. There may not have been. I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes. And please don't spin that.
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