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The Purpose driven life.

Postby brianm on Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:51 pm

I'm going to update this thread pretty much daily. I just started reading this book, and the 'suggestion' is to bounce the ideas of each chapter off of friends one day at a time, one chapter at a time (rather than read the whole thing front to back...it's supposed to take 40 days to read).

So, anyone offended by 'Christian' themes might want to stop reading now, otherwise feel free to post your thoughts on each chapter's 'Point to Ponder', 'Verse to Remember', and 'Question to Consider'

Chapter 1, Day 1:
Point to ponder: It (life) is not about me.
Verse to Remember: "Everything got started in him, and finds it's purpose in him"
Question to Consider: In spite of all of the advertising around me, how can I remind myself that life is really about living for God, not myself.

Personal comment:
The thing I liked most in this chapter was that it compared our lives to an invention. In the quest to find 'the meaning of life', we ask ourselves what we think our purpose in life is. If you have an invention, and you show it to someone, the most sure way to find that invention's purpose is to ask the inventor what the heck the gizmo is supposed to do, because most gizmos are not all that intuitive and won't explain themselves very well. Compare that to life, and you have to ask your 'creator' what you are supposed to be doing, not yourself.

Of course, the fallout of that is that without the notion of a 'creator', then life doesn't make a lot of sense. I guess that one 'solution' to finding a purpose if the idea of a creator doesn't fit your view of the universe is that perhaps what is called 'the creator' is a set of universal truths, and any life that is not built around these truths is going to be lacking the natural purpose that we each possess at birth. Ever notice that 'nice' people, whether they believe in God or not, are generally more at peace with their lives, even their mistakes? Maybe 'nice' is a universal truth?

The 'summary' of chapter one was pretty much in the point to ponder. Basically, what Mr. Warren was attempting to convey is that unless you think that you are self-created (in other words, there is no God) then you can't possibly find what your purpose in life is within yourself. A gizmo can't define it's own purpose since its purpose is defined by the gizmo's inventor. In the same way, if you accept that you were created by some sort of higher power, then the purpose you were created for was also defined by that higher power, and isn't something you can create or even change.

In a way, it reminds me a bit of the Presbyterian philosophy of pre-destination, that God created the universe and being omniscient, he knows everything that has happened and that will happen to the end of time. Not being a Pres myself, I'm not perfectly sure I described that correctly, but I think I got the jist of it.

I've had to think about this chapter a lot, because I have always been of the philosophy that ultimate responsibility is always your own, thus, you ultimate choices and actions are yours alone. This chapter challenges some basic beliefs that I have and it's a little uncomfortable.

However, the chapter also distinguishes between what your 'purpose' in life is and what your goals in life are. Goals are things that you set for yourself, standards you hold yourself to, etc. Purpose (as defined by this chapter) is the plan made by God for your life, how it will affect the world around you, and how it will lead you to eternity. I'm hoping that Chapter 2 goes into some more detail on just what 'purpose' is supposed to mean, and how that applies to your view of life (is it something you can come to know, or is it something you take on faith).

The 'purpose' of reading one chapter per day is that in this book, the author (Rick Warren) wants the reader to think about each chapter before reading the next one, because the book isn't so much a 'self help' book as a 'self transformation' book. It's written in a very interesting style, I am finding myself wanting to 'cheat' and read ahead...I think that it would probably be a great 'prayer group' book, though setting aside an hour or so every day for 40 days is a real commitment...

From that standpoint, it would be a very rare individual that can truly claim that all aspects of their life are completely at their own whim, because duties, responsibilities, and relationships are almost as powerful a force in shaping your purpose for waking up and going through the motions of your day as your own will is. So, it's not really a 'slam dunk' that you can say your life is all about you, because your life, whether you like it or not, affects others around you who have formed relationships with you, or who had relationships with you thrust upon them by the simple act of being born to the same family.

In a way it's a bitter pill to swallow, because if you are like me you take full responsibility for every single thing that you do or say (for better or worse), and when you take the full responsibility, you like to think that gives you the right to say you have full control. The reality of life however, seems to suggest that perhaps that isn't quite true.

It's something to think about. It's something I'm having to do a lot of thinking about.
Last edited by brianm on Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Snorri1234 on Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:52 pm

Join the Jesus Freaks.
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Duane: You know what they say about love and war.
Tim: Yes, one involves a lot of physical and psychological pain, and the other one's war.
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Postby got tonkaed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:04 pm

personally i dont think this is a bad idea...if someone was reading something they liked, they could probably generate a discussion a lot easier by having the book close to as is the case here.

the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.
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Postby suggs on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:07 pm

Love the way people think there is a purpose.
Quantum physics, anyone? :evil:
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Postby brianm on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:17 pm

got tonkaed wrote:why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.


Going with that thought, do you have a purpose that drives your life? What would those around you that know you well say your driving purpose is, and what would you WANT your driving purpose to be? What would you want to be able to say your life meant if such time came that your life was over (regardless of the implications of eternity).

Just a thought...
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Postby Sir. Ricco on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:18 pm

Don't criticize this thread. That book is holy ground. :lol:
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Postby Gregrios on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:38 pm

Are you saying that the book challenges the idea that people make their own choices? I've got to ask because CHOICE is the ultimate test given by God himself. Something that I've always said is that a person can do ANYTHING they want to do. The question of consciences is another topic all together.
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Postby brianm on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:47 pm

Gregrios wrote:Are you saying that the book challenges the idea that people make their own choices? I've got to ask because CHOICE is the ultimate test given by God himself. Something that I've always said is that a person can do ANYTHING they want to do. The question of consciences is another topic all together.


That leans more towards the aspect of free will, and that's not the same as your purpose in life. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well, but if you accept certain basic concepts such as the existence of a soul, the existence of a God that made the soul, and that nature is the sum of God's creation, then that leads to questions of 'why?'. Why did God go to the trouble of creating souls to populate a world that he also created?

So it's not a question of do you have control over what you do with the life that you have, even the Bible states that all of mankind has perfect free will to do as he/she pleases. The question that is asked by philosophers and holy men over the centuries is 'why are we here, what is the meaning of being alive?'

I am reminded of the story of Russian Novelist Andrei Bitov. He grew up in a communist country that actively tried to wipe all religion out. Atheism is the official 'state' religion of most Communist countries, as they want the 'State' to be the religion of the masses. When he was 27 he was riding the metro in Lenningrad (St. Petersburg) and became overcome with a great depair. He had come to the realization that existing in just the material world, in the 'here and now', in the idea that above him was no heaven, and that life under such parameters had neither future nor purpose. As he sat brooding over this thought, a phrase appeared to him (novelists are funny that way). "Without God, Life makes no sense". In his words "Repeating it in astonishment, I rode the phrase up like a moving staircase, got out of the metro, and walked into God's light."

That's a pretty powerful transformation, however, it isn't meaningful at all unless you accept that there are aspects to this experience we call 'life' that are not explained by what you see with your eyes, hear with your ears, can touch and feel with your skin, smell with your nose, or taste with your mouth. If you think that all aspects of life are covered by the biology, then that is your 'peace', but there are many people that simply can't be satisfied that the biology represents all that there is.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:50 pm

I've heard quite a bit about this book. I'll take you up on it Brian. Chapter one today & chapter two tomorrow. I'm not the most reliable about this sort of thing so you may have to pm me to remind me during the week.

got tonkaed wrote:the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.


My first reaction to your question GT is that you don't; anyone who follows any code of ethics or purpose is doing so by choice. How would you define an internal purpose, if it is to be an alternative to an external purpose? If it is to be one you create and interact with the social totality around you; Isn't that to some extent external. As your more's and decision making on this are a result of many experiences that were external.
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Postby Gregrios on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:14 pm

brianm wrote:
Gregrios wrote:Are you saying that the book challenges the idea that people make their own choices? I've got to ask because CHOICE is the ultimate test given by God himself. Something that I've always said is that a person can do ANYTHING they want to do. The question of consciences is another topic all together.


That leans more towards the aspect of free will, and that's not the same as your purpose in life. Maybe I'm not explaining it very well, but if you accept certain basic concepts such as the existence of a soul, the existence of a God that made the soul, and that nature is the sum of God's creation, then that leads to questions of 'why?'. Why did God go to the trouble of creating souls to populate a world that he also created?

So it's not a question of do you have control over what you do with the life that you have, even the Bible states that all of mankind has perfect free will to do as he/she pleases. The question that is asked by philosophers and holy men over the centuries is 'why are we here, what is the meaning of being alive?'

I am reminded of the story of Russian Novelist Andrei Bitov. He grew up in a communist country that actively tried to wipe all religion out. Atheism is the official 'state' religion of most Communist countries, as they want the 'State' to be the religion of the masses. When he was 27 he was riding the metro in Lenningrad (St. Petersburg) and became overcome with a great depair. He had come to the realization that existing in just the material world, in the 'here and now', in the idea that above him was no heaven, and that life under such parameters had neither future nor purpose. As he sat brooding over this thought, a phrase appeared to him (novelists are funny that way). "Without God, Life makes no sense". In his words "Repeating it in astonishment, I rode the phrase up like a moving staircase, got out of the metro, and walked into God's light."

That's a pretty powerful transformation, however, it isn't meaningful at all unless you accept that there are aspects to this experience we call 'life' that are not explained by what you see with your eyes, hear with your ears, can touch and feel with your skin, smell with your nose, or taste with your mouth. If you think that all aspects of life are covered by the biology, then that is your 'peace', but there are many people that simply can't be satisfied that the biology represents all that there is.


Ok. It seems that we're on the same page here. I just needed clearifacation on that paticular concept. I wasn't mixing up free will and purpose. I just wanted to know what the author's thoughts were on choice\free will. I understand what your saying and I agree that there is purpose for everything God's done. His ultimate goal is to unit Heaven and Earth. When Adam and Eve screwed up by way of free will, God has been on a mission to set everything up for the day that's coming. The day when God reunits with man. Everything from Kings of the past right to the descendents of the future. Technology, modern ideals, and new found lands are all of the purpose of God's final work.
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Postby suggs on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:40 pm

You chaps know that the Bible is the biggest work of fiction since fidelity vows were put in the marriage ceremony?
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Postby InkL0sed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:47 pm

suggs wrote:You chaps know that the Bible is the biggest work of fiction since fidelity vows were put in the marriage ceremony?


The Bible came after that? :-s

Shouldn't it be more like "Fidelity vows in the marriage ceremony are the biggest work of fiction since the Bible?"
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Postby Gregrios on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:49 pm

suggs wrote:You chaps know that the Bible is the biggest work of fiction since fidelity vows were put in the marriage ceremony?


Although I disagree with your concept of the Bible, you do bring up a good point about wedding vows. They have become nothing more than words of tradition. It doesn't seem like people take them too seriously anymore.

Just to set things straight though. I would've found your comment quite funny if it didn't disgust me so much.
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Postby suggs on Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:52 pm

InkL0sed wrote:
suggs wrote:You chaps know that the Bible is the biggest work of fiction since fidelity vows were put in the marriage ceremony?


The Bible came after that? :-s

Shouldn't it be more like "Fidelity vows in the marriage ceremony are the biggest work of fiction since the Bible?"


Yes, curses! I was ripping off Blackadder anyway.
I just meant that very little of the Bible is true, if any of it.
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Postby got tonkaed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:05 pm

CrazyAnglican wrote:I've heard quite a bit about this book. I'll take you up on it Brian. Chapter one today & chapter two tomorrow. I'm not the most reliable about this sort of thing so you may have to pm me to remind me during the week.

got tonkaed wrote:the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.


My first reaction to your question GT is that you don't; anyone who follows any code of ethics or purpose is doing so by choice. How would you define an internal purpose, if it is to be an alternative to an external purpose? If it is to be one you create and interact with the social totality around you; Isn't that to some extent external. As your more's and decision making on this are a result of many experiences that were external.


to answer you both...i dont think you can really have a sense of purpose that does not relate to the external influences, but i do think there is a great deal of a difference between being able to determine and fashion your own purpose on an internal level, than being stuck trying to determine a purpose from a being that you can never truly interact with or know, and thus can only to a point guess at the intents behind said purpose.
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Postby Gregrios on Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:16 pm

got tonkaed wrote:
CrazyAnglican wrote:I've heard quite a bit about this book. I'll take you up on it Brian. Chapter one today & chapter two tomorrow. I'm not the most reliable about this sort of thing so you may have to pm me to remind me during the week.

got tonkaed wrote:the one overriding question i would probalby have going into this is, why must you follow a purpose external to one you create and interact with the social totality around you.


My first reaction to your question GT is that you don't; anyone who follows any code of ethics or purpose is doing so by choice. How would you define an internal purpose, if it is to be an alternative to an external purpose? If it is to be one you create and interact with the social totality around you; Isn't that to some extent external. As your more's and decision making on this are a result of many experiences that were external.


to answer you both...i dont think you can really have a sense of purpose that does not relate to the external influences, but i do think there is a great deal of a difference between being able to determine and fashion your own purpose on an internal level, than being stuck trying to determine a purpose from a being that you can never truly interact with or know, and thus can only to a point guess at the intents behind said purpose.


Only guessing? I've got disagree with you there. What about signs that are recognized by certain individuals inorder to complete a certain purpose? These signs being of God's will. I believe true individual purpose comes from understanding the signs presented to you. Or just plain understanding of what the Bible teachs.
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Postby got tonkaed on Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:13 pm

well i suppose i think in a way we find the things we are looking for if we are truly looking. One poster on here has famously said that he thinks faith is as much as about the will to believe as anything. Theres nothing wrong with that and its likely quite true, but if you are looking for signs that something is out there, you are going to find them, irrospective of any truth value to them.

For instance, when my father was ill, he truly wanted to believe there was a plan or purpose behind that phase of his life. As things presented themselves, they uplifted him, even though in many cases they did not ultimatly affect his life in anyway. Am i to say those things arent true that he found? Of course not, but they certainly can be questioned. However, when you hinge a lot of personal validation on the truth value of these things, it becomes much less important to question them as it does to believe them.

Likewise, messages of truth in the bible are only seen as such because you are looking for them. In the history of humanity many great books have been written, many of them including a social message. It is the personal context that an individual brings to their reading of the text that adds an element of the divine to it, as much as any intrinsic value it may have*

*note this is only because we cannot prove it is divine*
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:17 pm

suggs wrote:Love the way people think there is a purpose.
Quantum physics, anyone? :evil:


I think you're confusing "quantum physics (mechanics)" with "quantum theory." You're referring to the latter, which currently has no evidence whatsoever to back it up. The idea that subatomic particles just pop in and out of reality has no evidence, and it's unscientific to conclude that they do just because we don't understand their path. Sorta like the atheist whine that theists automatically jump to God when they can't explain something... now atheists are jumping to some totally unproven quantum theory.

And in reference to the original post, I live just down the street from the church of the author of The Purpose Driven Life... I wouldn't necessarily call his church an ideal Christian setting... I really get the impression that he tries to "sell" Christianity a bit too much...
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Postby brianm on Mon Feb 04, 2008 2:55 am

..tomorrow then.....I will do the next chapter tomorrow...
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Postby Gregrios on Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:39 pm

got tonkaed wrote:well i suppose i think in a way we find the things we are looking for if we are truly looking. One poster on here has famously said that he thinks faith is as much as about the will to believe as anything. Theres nothing wrong with that and its likely quite true, but if you are looking for signs that something is out there, you are going to find them, irrospective of any truth value to them.

For instance, when my father was ill, he truly wanted to believe there was a plan or purpose behind that phase of his life. As things presented themselves, they uplifted him, even though in many cases they did not ultimatly affect his life in anyway. Am i to say those things arent true that he found? Of course not, but they certainly can be questioned. However, when you hinge a lot of personal validation on the truth value of these things, it becomes much less important to question them as it does to believe them.

Likewise, messages of truth in the bible are only seen as such because you are looking for them. In the history of humanity many great books have been written, many of them including a social message. It is the personal context that an individual brings to their reading of the text that adds an element of the divine to it, as much as any intrinsic value it may have*

*note this is only because we cannot prove it is divine*


Well put. I've had signs into things that I was looking into and I have no need of proving it to anyone. I know it's true and that's all that matters to me.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is KNOWING IS BELIEVING!
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Postby unriggable on Mon Feb 04, 2008 4:59 pm

I really think having a life with a purpose would be a horrible life to live.
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Postby Gregrios on Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:23 pm

unriggable wrote:I really think having a life with a purpose would be a horrible life to live.


People with a divine purpose in the coming days will have it very hard indeed. The Bible warns us of this. Actually all believers in God are warned of the hard times to come. The refund we get will be a good one though.
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Postby unriggable on Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:44 pm

Gregrios wrote:
unriggable wrote:I really think having a life with a purpose would be a horrible life to live.


People with a divine purpose in the coming days will have it very hard indeed. The Bible warns us of this. Actually all believers in God are warned of the hard times to come. The refund we get will be a good one though.


Well, as long as you're happy, I won't interrupt...
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:53 pm

Okay Brian,

I just read the first chapter. I didn't see it as predestination, however. Merely that God created us with a purpose in mind does not mean that he gives us no choice about whether to fulfill that purpose or not. I believe the world is diminshed for each of us that rebels against that purpose, but that God leaves it up to us as a daily choice to put him first in our lives. The part of that which can be counter-intuitive (at least for me) is that when I am pursuing selfish aims I am least happy with myself. It is the times that I am following the words of Christ that I am most at peace.

There is, within me, a drive to do certain things and behave certain ways. Different people would interpret that in different ways, but I understand, according to my beliefs that it is God's plan. The ways to discern God's will has, for me, always been to question it. Sometimes introspectively, in which I search my own emotions and thoughts to see what my underlying motives are. It's happened several times that I've gotten into heated discussions and had to drop it even though my pride shouted "But I'm Right!". It is not permissible to let my being right superceed the correctness of God's word.

Some aside thoughts. In Aikido, there is an idea known as Mu-Shin. IT means roughly "no mind" (have fun with that one guys :wink: ). It is a state you reach when your technique is generally at its best. You do not have to think about it. Usually, it is experienced four days into summer camp when you have been practicing three classes a day plus other assundry workouts. Plainly, you're just too tired to keep doing the techniques wrong anymore. In our culture we tend to call that centered.

In much the same way a friend noticed that I was getting really tired out snow-skiing. His advice was to "go downhill, It's when you try to fight and keep yourself from going downhill that you really tire yourself out. In much the same way. God has a plan for me. I can choose to fight against that plan, or I can do what his scripture, his church body, and my own judgement suggest that I do. They are all three things that he has provided for me to understand what that purpose is.
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Postby brianm on Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:29 pm

Sorry I didn't get to this earlier, Birthday party for a nephew (12 years old, damnit they grow up!!) plus a shopping excursion that my wife insisted on. By the time we got home I was BEAT.

Chapter summary: There is no such thing as random chance. There are accidental (and illigitimate) parents, but there are no accidental or illigitimate children. God planned all of your DNA, your parents (or lack thereof) all of your struggles, and every other thing about you because those things made you into exactly the person that you are.

Point to Ponder: I am not an accident.

Verse to Remember: "I am your Creator, you were in my care even before you were born" Isaiah 4:42 (CEV)

Question to Consider: Knowing that God uniquely created me, what areas of my personality, background, and physical appearance am i struggling to accept?

Personal comments:
I understand that it is often the worst parts of life that define us, and quite often make us 'grow up' into the human beings that we eventually become, but WHY does really crappy things have to happen to really good people? Heck, why do even fairly small bad things happen to good people? Why did I recently develop a heart condition, why have I gone bald, why does getting older suck so much?

Some of that really tests a person's faith...

I know the answers that my faith tries to give to me, that even bad things have a purpose that could ultimately end up in good. I think the Bible says "My flesh is the true food, and by blood the true drink, and who partakes of me shall never perish." Great, that sounds just great but when you have to deal with what appears to be a senseless death, a pointless death, what appears to be a PURPOSELESS death, then it's a tough morsel of bread to chew, and bitter wine to swallow.

But, even after the bad things happen, life (for some) goes on and the world continues to spin. The bad things that happen DO remind us of just how precious and fleeting the good things are (whether you are a religious person or not, that's pretty close to being a universal truth). Does the bread and wine offer anything of value, and is it a case of a tough morsel and bitter wine being better than the alternative of no bread at all and no wine at all?

One thing I've becomed convinced of is that I never find answers in religion. At best, I find a better understanding of the questions, but perhaps that is the most you can expect from religion, philosophy, or even in academic study.
Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved. -- Helen Keller
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