The Permaban Penalty

[TheBro]

I don't see why permanent bans are necessary. Wouldn't weekly/monthly bans get the point across?

[AAFitz]

I don't see why permanent bans are necessary. Wouldn't weekly/monthly bans get the point across?

Thats kind of the point.... in this case, they didnt

[Herakilla]

If any of you need an example of a good forum user, look to me. I may push things a little bit, but I don't cross the line.

There's an ego on the loose. FYI this is a reason people dont like you. No guts, no glory.

That's what makes norse so likeable. And yes, punishment needs to be based on offence, not if its the nth's time its been done.

i agree that punishment should have an offense system but there still needs to be punishments for repeated offenses. if you got warned not to do something and still went and did it, thats your fault and no one elses and you have to live with the consequences

[V.I.]

As I posted before, even laws have flexibility when it comes to punishments, because every crime is different with different factors. On the books two people can commit the exact same crime, but one may recieve 10 years more than the other due to the circumstances of the crime, that were decided by a judge.

If the laws were unilateral, and inflexible, they would be more unfair, not more fair. Further, no player in here... not one has to worry about being perma banned. The only ones that do, are the ones that have been repeatedly warned. If someone gets banned after repeated warnings, whether its 3 or 13, they were still warned. Personally, I prefer the flexibility, so that if a person who doesnt deserve a permaban needs some less forceful warnings, and their number technically goes over the number, someone can decide if its not warranted, and not just act on a rule thats written down.

I think you address the heart of this discussion here Fitzy, whether or not moral absolutism or moral relativism should hold sway in terms of law enforcement on this website.

As a moral relativist, I am forced to concede the point to you. There should most certainly be a level of flexibility, as there currently exists on this website. I will even go so far as to say that the majority of moderators I have encountered practice discretion quite deftly.

I'd also like to point out that Wacicha talks exclusively about himself entirely too often in his posts. Check his past two works of art. "Wise Man" my ass. Work on your grammar and punctuation skills and shut your mouth already. There is a very good reason why you are not a full-fledged moderator.

[Harijan]

I'd just like to add, since people seem to be looking at this, that I'm not a mod, I just do Map Ideas sub forum and XML checking before maps go live.

Yes, that is all that I do.

Please stop bugging me about other stuff, I don't know about other stuff and have no obligation to help you if you bug me about stuff other then Map Ideas and XML concerns.

That said, I've given inside input on perma-bans in the past. I've disagreed with every instance of their use just like many of you.

I do understand the current system though. It's like felony charges and the three strikes rule. It makes sense. If you do something irritating enough to get an official warning that should be a hint to stop committing felonies. People that don't get the hint get up to their last strike and can't use the forum anymore.

It makes sense.

The problem I have with it right now is everything is a felony. People sometimes end up perma-banned for slap on the wrist level offenses. It would make more sense to me to categorize offenses into different groups and designate one group to have some sort of 2 or 3 strikes rule, while the rest can get you anywhere from a week to a month each time.

It would also be nice to have some sort of public court type decision on these perma-bans with a jury, but I'll settle with whatever reform we can manage to get. And it needs reform.

Coleman, I will apologize for any shit I have given you in the past. This really does sum up the concern I think we all have regardless of what we like to do at CC.

[wacicha]

Or part of the problem. And please do not curse in any thread other than Flame Wars forum. This is a child-friendly site.

I'd also like to point out that Wacicha talks exclusively about himself entirely too often in his posts. Check his past two works of art. "Wise Man" my ass. Work on your grammar and punctuation skills and shut your mouth already. There is a very good reason why you are not a full-fledged moderator.

[V.I.]

I stand by my latter comments.

[john1099]

As I posted before, even laws have flexibility when it comes to punishments, because every crime is different with different factors. On the books two people can commit the exact same crime, but one may recieve 10 years more than the other due to the circumstances of the crime, that were decided by a judge.

If the laws were unilateral, and inflexible, they would be more unfair, not more fair. Further, no player in here... not one has to worry about being perma banned. The only ones that do, are the ones that have been repeatedly warned. If someone gets banned after repeated warnings, whether its 3 or 13, they were still warned. Personally, I prefer the flexibility, so that if a person who doesnt deserve a permaban needs some less forceful warnings, and their number technically goes over the number, someone can decide if its not warranted, and not just act on a rule thats written down.

I think you address the heart of this discussion here Fitzy, whether or not moral absolutism or moral relativism should hold sway in terms of law enforcement on this website.

As a moral relativist, I am forced to concede the point to you. There should most certainly be a level of flexibility, as there currently exists on this website. I will even go so far as to say that the majority of moderators I have encountered practice discretion quite deftly.

I'd also like to point out that Wacicha talks exclusively about himself entirely too often in his posts. Check his past two works of art. "Wise Man" my ass. Work on your grammar and punctuation skills and shut your mouth already. There is a very good reason why you are not a full-fledged moderator.

Atta boy VI, way to be a moronic un-educated bastard yourself.

I honestly don't feel like reading through 11+ pages of this filth just to see what you're boring us about, but I really don't appreciate you slandering Wacicha, like you have done.

He is a very solid player, and is a great person as well, and that's partly why he was selected for the "wise man"
He knows more than yourself, that's for sure!

I don't know why you're hostile towards him, perhaps you're jealous that he is a part of Conquer Club, and you are not, although, in retrospect, you're in the basement on an internet site, so kudos to you!

Hope you get a life, and maybe an education yourself?

Thanks,
-John

Ps. I realize this is semi-flaming, therefore to the moderators I am sorry, just realize I am backing a friend here, so whatever fate I receive is well worth it.

[decoulombe]

When you sign up for a club, you go by that club's rules. It doesnt matter what you personally think. If you play the game, you have to go by the rules.

Humbug.

You petition the club's owners for change, and hope that they have the good sense to realise it is long overdue.

If we all went along with your way of thinking then we'd still be dunking-witches... after all, you gotta "go by the rules".

Yes, I go by the rules, or I don’t play. No, you don’t lay problems (IE: Petition, petition, petition) on mods desks, you work for a solution. Don’t say the mods are tough because so far, I havn’t heard anyone figure a solution other then make everything fair. FYI: The mods can’t treat everybody the same since the crimes are not all the same.

Just waded through this confusing thread, but I think it comes down to the mods posting a list of punishments.

That about sums it up, Frop.

When X occurs, Y will occur.

When X(2) occurs, Y(2) will occur.

Etc. etc. etc.

Consistency of enforcement.

Does that mean when a cop pulls you over, you are obliged to a ticket??????? How, exactly would you handle each individual case if you indeed were a mod.

BTW: I'm just illustrating a point here. This is not to offend anyone. Again I ask that this post be locked for reasons this has gone off topic.

[Harijan]

We all follow the rules (such as traffic laws) in part because we know that there is a way to change the laws (or more accurately the punishments for breaking the laws) are unjust.

The obedience of a society to its laws is dependent on that society believing that the laws are just. Or if the laws are not just they can be changed.

That is what you mean when you say you follow the rules. If you believed the rules were not fair you either would not join or would try to get the rules changed.

Many of us perceive that the punishments to the rules are unfair and should be consistent. That is all we are asking for.

Stop being a dick.

[decoulombe]

Oh and PS:

I don't think anyone here has argued against the rules, its the so-called "unequal punishments" everyone is complaining about. (I think that's the topic anyway). If that is the case, the real easy way to solve this problem is just don't do the crime.

I remember as a kid, watching an old western with my dad, the bad guy was complaining about the injustice of his punishment and the hero (I forget his name) said:

"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time"

[decoulombe]

We all follow the rules (such as traffic laws) in part because we know that there is a way to change the laws (or more accurately the punishments for breaking the laws) are unjust.

The obedience of a society to its laws is dependent on that society believing that the laws are just. Or if the laws are not just they can be changed.

That is what you mean when you say you follow the rules. If you believed the rules were not fair you either would not join or would try to get the rules changed.

Many of us perceive that the punishments to the rules are unfair and should be consistent. That is all we are asking for.

Stop being a d[censored]ck.

Laws can only be changed so far as our conscious will allow them. You cannot, for instance, say murder and theft are legal (these are extremities).....otherwise civilization as we know it would collapse. Good is good, and bad is bad, and such is formed in every one's conscious (I'm excluding the morally insane)

But enough of my philosophy and yours please. Since we've finally come to the core of the argument, what would you change specifically, and how would you do it.

Decoulombe

[Twill]

Holy crap you guys are prolific.

There are 10 core contributors to this thread and you managed to come up with 157 posts (and called self-proclaimed it "popular opinion")

OK. I banned Norse. It was my call. You asked for who did the dirty, there ya go. I'm pretty much the only one who can/does press the perma-ban button so there is no secrecy there. If you have an issue with it, you have an issue with me and the policies I have set, not with the mods who have the tough and unenviable task of often taking the heat for those policies.

I hate the fact that Norse is gone, he had some genuinely hilarious posts and I laughed whenever I got a PM from him. He will be missed indeed. That being said, he chose to take his gift of gab and use it in a way not appropriate for this forum and thus had to face the consequences of it.

Now, lets get straight to the heart of the matter - is the punishment policy on this site variously too strictly/blanket enforced, arbitrarily enforced, not consistent, too consistent or generally "outdated" (let me take a moment to at the inconsistency of the challenge to the system, pick one and stick to it, would you?)

Our punishment system rapidly escalates, and that is intentional: If you have not figured out that you breaking the rules by your 3rd forum freeze (which is at least a week long, depending on your actions thus far), then you are either not going to get "it" and don't belong here or are intentionally not getting "it" and don't belong here. Every member is given the chance to change their ways but if you do not, why should we spend our time banning you every 3 weeks for doing the same thing?

If you steal a cookie 3 times, you don't deserve the death penalty, but you also shouldn't be allowed near the cookie jar any more.

This is not the internet. This is a private business and while I, and the moderators, exist to serve the community, we exist to serve the community, not a very vocal minority who choose to attempt to turn it into their own playground (i.e. the 10-15 people who are the so called "majority public opinion" in this case). Post count does not give you any more right or importance on this site and just because you can shout louder and more often does not make you right.

Our rules are incredibly simple. I have said it before and I will say it again - find me a business aimed at the general public which has rules as open as ours. Find me another commercial site that would allow even this discussion to take place. Find me commercial site that would intentionally add a flame wars board to their site. Do that and then you can come and talk to me about freedom of speech.

Our rules exist to maintain a bare minimum of decency for a broad spectrum of people. Our punishment system is designed to keep that base level in tact. It takes a fair bit of work to get to the point of being removed from the forum and if you managed to get there then you just don't fit in this community. If you do not like the rules which have been established, this is a commercial entity, not always a democratic one, and as such, I encourage you to vote with you feet and go somewhere that fits your needs better. The internet is a big wide place, I'm sure there are plenty of places that would be happy to grant you a greater degree of "free speech".

Norse chose to break rules, he knew the consequences, as does anyone who is punished, before they are punished. He knew exactly what would get him banned and he chose to cross that line and he got banned, period.

To those who say it is arbitrary - we have a consistent progression and anything long term goes through me first to ensure that it is an appropriate ban.
To those who say we do not punish to the crime - I don't care, if you consistently show disdain for the very very simple rules here then you are choosing to not to be a part of this community and we simply facilitate that.
To those who say that punishments should be handed out on a case by case basis - talk to the people who say we need consistency and not differential treatment of people.

To sum up:

The rules will not be changes. Enforcement will not be changed. If a person cannot follow the the bare minimum of rules, then they do not belong in this community. If you do not agree with the rules or their enforcement, nobody is forcing you to come here, and if you are in fact the "majority opinion" then I am sure there are other sites which cater to your preferences.

There ya go.
Twill

P.S. I will only reply in this thread, not any other. I probably wont reply much either because, despite what you have said and the eloquent statements of a harsh system, you have yet to tell me why someone who intentionally, knowingly and repeatedly breaks the rules should be allowed to remain a part of this community. And that will be a very hard sell indeed.

[yeti_c]

Wow - Over an hour and no-one can even think of a response to Twill?

C.

[richardgarr]

Well said Twill ! !

[happy2seeyou]

Nicely put Twill.

[KoE_Sirius]

Wow - Over an hour and no-one can even think of a response to Twill?

C.

I think Twill covered it all.He has obviously put a lot of thought into it,before he banned him.

[oVo]

Bingo... an honest, logical, ethical, unequivocal and dead on response.

There is a game site called SiSSYFiGHT that includes a message bored much like this one that values the free exchange of ideas. It is a school yard themed game and as such has a forum much like Flame Wars called Behind the Gym and they too have a zero tolerance for hate speech. The use of derrogatory slang such as gay or fag as well as ethnic slurs will get you warned and banned there as well if someone chooses to push it.

[Beastly]

I have a response to Twill...


I agree with your post, fine Job....

However I tried before this ever happened to suggest when a "warning" is given or a time out, that people are told just where they made the "No-No"

I will make a example out of Dog the Bounty Hunter, who is not prejudice, but lost his show by calling his sons' girlfriend the N word.

He was brought up and lived with this way of talking. Not that it is right or ok. But if you do not tell people where they did the "NO NO" sometimes, especially if they post a lot, they don't know where the screw up was.

So please, maybe now I will be heard.

I found this out when AK sent me a warning for something, and I had no idea what he was talking about. And he wouldn't tell me. Also I have seen many other members get the same treatment, they don't even know what the mods with the warnings are talking about...Ask Iliad he, kept asking over and over again why he got a ban, he had no clue. And I still think he doesn't know.

I now wonder, if Norse, when he was "timed out" or banned even knew where he was doing the "no-no"

By the way I put this in the suggestions MONTHS ago, only to get the answer, we send out a basic form.

[jiminski]

hehe, 'Norse the Bounty Hunter'!

[wicked]

Beastly, you'll be happy to know we now send out links or quotes or both when warning someone. Yes we were lax on it before, apologies for that. If there's EVER a question as to what you did, and the mod who warned you can't/doesn't answer that to your satisfaction, PM Twill directly. Or better yet, stay outta trouble in the first place.

[Symmetry]

Feigning ignorance, or being ignorant, is not a defense. I don't think the moderators job should include education. In spite of what many people have said on this thread, the forums here are mostly self-moderated. People will tell you when you have gone too far. Norse had many other people post replies complaining about his views within the forums that he posted on.

Have you heard of the "ten bars theory"? The number changes, but the theory remains. Walk into one bar, and if a guy tries to attack you, then you know that he's in the wrong. Walk into ten bars and the same thing happens with different guys, then you should do a bit of self-examination.

What's missing here is that guys who are banned are banned because they will never realize what they did to piss people off. They can't look at the responses they get, or the warnings from authority figures, and make the link. They still feel that they can't have done something wrong, and so other people are to blame for treating them unfairly, or just plain not understanding them.

[Snorri1234]

Wow, I totally missed the discussion. Damn.

[Harijan]

Have you heard of the "ten bars theory"? The number changes, but the theory remains. Walk into one bar, and if a guy tries to attack you, then you know that he's in the wrong. Walk into ten bars and the same thing happens with different guys, then you should do a bit of self-examination.

Or it could mean you are in London.

[AAFitz]

As I posted before, even laws have flexibility when it comes to punishments, because every crime is different with different factors. On the books two people can commit the exact same crime, but one may recieve 10 years more than the other due to the circumstances of the crime, that were decided by a judge.

If the laws were unilateral, and inflexible, they would be more unfair, not more fair. Further, no player in here... not one has to worry about being perma banned. The only ones that do, are the ones that have been repeatedly warned. If someone gets banned after repeated warnings, whether its 3 or 13, they were still warned. Personally, I prefer the flexibility, so that if a person who doesnt deserve a permaban needs some less forceful warnings, and their number technically goes over the number, someone can decide if its not warranted, and not just act on a rule thats written down.

I think you address the heart of this discussion here Fitzy, whether or not moral absolutism or moral relativism should hold sway in terms of law enforcement on this website.

As a moral relativist, I am forced to concede the point to you. There should most certainly be a level of flexibility, as there currently exists on this website. I will even go so far as to say that the majority of moderators I have encountered practice discretion quite deftly.

I'd also like to point out that Wacicha talks exclusively about himself entirely too often in his posts. Check his past two works of art. "Wise Man" my ass. Work on your grammar and punctuation skills and shut your mouth already. There is a very good reason why you are not a full-fledged moderator.

The point was not an easy one to make, especially since I was being fastposted by 2 or 3 people on every post..lol..

But clearly you are interested in an unbiased opinion which is why I offer that you have waccicha all wrong. His personality is totally against all confrontation and in a thread like this he has a personal perspective that not all have. He was also put into a position where he had to monitor a topic that is far more heated and controversial than what is usually put in general discussion. Dont take my word for it. Simply look and see what hes done for this site, and how hes helped improved it. You cant judge anyone based on one topic, especially when it naturally hits so close to home for that person.

I think this whole thread should show, that an initial response, is not always reflective of the total communitiy's voice. The overall community will always be more conservative. Most will never post on a subject like this, if for no other reason that it is so controversial, and its easier to let others do it. Wachica would never have posted in here if he didnt feel compelled to, because it was his job to monitor and keep the thread within its boundaries. This is a guy who donates his time and financial support to the site, and asks for nothing more than a little respect. Luckilly, he gets lots of respect. However, it is a great example of how a thread initially can be seen to be going in one direction, because the other side has simply not seen it, or because its easier to not join in.

Overall, the moderation and management of this site allows far more flexibility and liberty than a majority would vote for, or possibly even allow. To those blaming it for being too strict in its policies, you should be thanking them for being as liberal as they are.

In the early days, there was an ad hoc moderating team, and considering the odds, they did damn well. They made a mistake once in a while, and will continue to do so, but now there is a much larger team, and many more opinions are included in nearly every decision. I often get accused of blindly backing them up, but I doubt any moderator would accuse me of that. If I disagree with them, I post it just as longwordedly.

I have always been of the opinion that the moderation should be handled professionally, and that the mods should be held to a higher standard in their public posts than other players. Its why many players would never even consider taking on the job of being a moderator. No one really loves the cops when they are giving you a speeding ticket, but you sure as hell want them around when someones breaking into your house.

Unfortunately CC needs cops because some people go too far.