Christian forums

[Neutrino]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

Don't you have a certain few paragraphs of mine to respond too?

[F1fth]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

How about instead of proving that Islam doesn't, I prove the Christianity does? I don't care if you think Islam is designed to induce people to murder, I just don't want you to hold an absolute DOUBLE STANDARD for something you don't believe in.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Let me repeat for emphasis:

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

And trust me, there is much, much more.

If you want to say "That's not Christianity," then fine, but then all the crap you bring up about Islam is just as invalid.

[F1fth]

Sorry, to load you with quotes, but I have one more. It's quite... interesting.

Cursed be he who does the Lords work remissly, cursed he who holds back his sword from blood. (Jeremiah 48:10 NAB)

[Jenos Ridan]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

And neither are you. I was only ridiculing you
No how about you prove to me what in Shariah Law is against the Universal Declaration of Human rights?

And I wasn't even trying; this is a serious topic.

Let's see.........

Slavery, class discrimination (Dhirimitude), gender discrimination (Muslim's typical treatment of Women as nearly the same level as property) just to name the big ones. I'm sure the Shariah Law, the Hadith and Koran all sing the same tune.

[Iliad]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

And neither are you. I was only ridiculing you
No how about you prove to me what in Shariah Law is against the Universal Declaration of Human rights?

And I wasn't even trying; this is a serious topic.

Let's see.........

Slavery, class discrimination (Dhirimitude), gender discrimination (Muslim's typical treatment of Women as nearly the same level as property) just to name the big ones. I'm sure the Shariah Law, the Hadith and Koran all sing the same tune.

Slavery: Also in christianity
Class discrinimation: probably also there
gender discrimination: defintely there

[got tonkaed]

out of curiosity, has anyone whose discussing this actually read the universal declaration?

[Neutrino]

out of curiosity, has anyone whose discussing this actually read the universal declaration?

I looked at the Wikipedia page...

[got tonkaed]

the original document is pretty short in and of itself.....

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/RESOLUTION/GEN/NR0/043/88/IMG/NR004388.pdf?OpenElement

seems reasonable under the circumstances to at least see the document you guys are arguing around the religious aspect.

[F1fth]

I knew the general idea of it, but looking it over just now:

No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Yeah right.

[Jenos Ridan]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

And neither are you. I was only ridiculing you
No how about you prove to me what in Shariah Law is against the Universal Declaration of Human rights?

And I wasn't even trying; this is a serious topic.

Let's see.........

Slavery, class discrimination (Dhirimitude), gender discrimination (Muslim's typical treatment of Women as nearly the same level as property) just to name the big ones. I'm sure the Shariah Law, the Hadith and Koran all sing the same tune.

Slavery: Also in christianity
Class discrinimation: probably also there
gender discrimination: defintely there

So basically, you're making excuses for the muslims to beat and rape their women, enslave people who are not muslim (Dhirimitude), coerse said slaves to convert by what amounts to ridicule and bullying (Same), kill off whole scores of people simple because they are pagan (Darfur) and catagorically divide the world into the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-Harb?

[Iliad]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

And neither are you. I was only ridiculing you
No how about you prove to me what in Shariah Law is against the Universal Declaration of Human rights?

And I wasn't even trying; this is a serious topic.

Let's see.........

Slavery, class discrimination (Dhirimitude), gender discrimination (Muslim's typical treatment of Women as nearly the same level as property) just to name the big ones. I'm sure the Shariah Law, the Hadith and Koran all sing the same tune.

Slavery: Also in christianity
Class discrinimation: probably also there
gender discrimination: defintely there

So basically, you're making excuses for the muslims to beat and rape their women, enslave people who are not muslim (Dhirimitude), coerse said slaves to convert by what amounts to ridicule and bullying (Same), kill off whole scores of people simple because they are pagan (Darfur) and catagorically divide the world into the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-Harb?

no I'm not saying those things are right but I'm arguing that Islam is not a violent religion and it was not more violent then christianity

[Dancing Mustard]

Stalin was such a dick.

Word.

[comic boy]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

And neither are you. I was only ridiculing you
No how about you prove to me what in Shariah Law is against the Universal Declaration of Human rights?

And I wasn't even trying; this is a serious topic.

Let's see.........

Slavery, class discrimination (Dhirimitude), gender discrimination (Muslim's typical treatment of Women as nearly the same level as property) just to name the big ones. I'm sure the Shariah Law, the Hadith and Koran all sing the same tune.

Slavery: Also in christianity
Class discrinimation: probably also there
gender discrimination: defintely there

So basically, you're making excuses for the muslims to beat and rape their women, enslave people who are not muslim (Dhirimitude), coerse said slaves to convert by what amounts to ridicule and bullying (Same), kill off whole scores of people simple because they are pagan (Darfur) and catagorically divide the world into the Dar al-Islam and the Dar al-Harb?

Firstly I think Shariah law is an abomination and should prove to everybody that secular government is the only sane option. However the vast majority of Muslims do not live under Shariah law and Im pretty sure that a lot that do rather wished they did not . The penalties for rape you will note under Shariah are much stiffer than in Western societies and in all probability the figures are much lower than in supposedly Christian countries such as the USA.Those who follow other religions are certainly persecuted in certain Muslim countries but they are not enslaved, hundreds of thousands of ex pat workers rather prove my point.
Darfur is an appalling example of ethnic cleansing but your attempt to make political capital out of it is disgusting, it has little to do with religion and everything to do with a despotic government attempting to increase its power base. The same applies to the recent genocides in Rwanda and Bosnia,the later you will note by the Christian Serbs against Muslims !
As you have declined to comment on the last couple of posts that dispute what you say I doubt you will bother to address my points,though simply ranting and refusing to debate is hardly convincing you realise.

[Snorri1234]

All France is occupied: All? NOT! A small band irreducible Gaulois resists still and always to the invader...

Sounds alot like nationalism to me - how long until you join some fucked up vigilante militant group driven by some white power motives, decorated with the French National Flag as a backdrop? You have some very strong ideals, Naps, too bad they are exclusive and selfish, topped off with a very strong dose of hatred.

Actually that sentence is from one of the best comic-books ever. Asterix & Obelix.

[MeDeFe]

All France is occupied: All? NOT! A small band irreducible Gaulois resists still and always to the invader...

Sounds alot like nationalism to me - how long until you join some fucked up vigilante militant group driven by some white power motives, decorated with the French National Flag as a backdrop? You have some very strong ideals, Naps, too bad they are exclusive and selfish, topped off with a very strong dose of hatred.

Actually that sentence is from one of the best comic-books ever. Asterix & Obelix.

Confirmed, it doesn't do much to add credibility to Nappys arguments, though.

[Snorri1234]

I understand that you believe that Jesus was all for peace and love, and I fully agree with you, but that belief is only slightly more rational than thinking he was some war-mongering criminal. It's all interpretation.

Believeing that Christ is peace loving is "only, slightly more rational than thinking he was a war-mongering criminal"? It's all interpretation? Okay?

"He who lives by the sword dies by the sword" (in context as an admonition to Peter not to violently oppose those who would seize Him when his earthly life was on the line)

Well...I might have overstated it a bit.
But Live by the sword, die by the sword could also be a positive message if you look at it from a different viewpoint. A true warrior dies in battle and all that stuff.
What I am saying is that any crazy person can find whatever they want in the bible. And since we don't have the author of the book to consult, there is no way to value their interpretation as less than others. In the sense that their interpretation doesn't have to be false.

If they do not place the same importance upon them than it is most assuredly not semantics. I've been accused many times of "picking and choosing" because I do not adhere to every law from the Old Testament or everything in the Epistles. The simple fact is that, in the Church I attend, they are not viewed as being as important as the Gospels.

Yes and it remains picking and choosing. And that is totally not a bad thing. However, the reason I brought it up was that Nappy was saying muslims can't pick or choose. I countered that by saying that means christians can't pick or choose either and must believe everything as literal truth.
I'm not attacking your belief, I'm using it as an example. Most christians see the OT as more of a collection of metaphors than literal truth, as do jews. What I'm asking Napoleon is why the same cannot be said for Islam.

You can certainly attempt to lump all religions with some common scriptures into one groups, but to do so is to stereotyping. Isn't that what you guys were accusing Napoleon Ier of?

But...they are all the same group... All three are worshipping the same god. And we didn't want to stereotype, we were just taking Nappy's generalizing one logical step futher.

[Snorri1234]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

How about instead of proving that Islam doesn't, I prove the Christianity does? I don't care if you think Islam is designed to induce people to murder, I just don't want you to hold an absolute DOUBLE STANDARD for something you don't believe in.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

And trust me, there is much, much more.

If you want to say "That's not Christianity," then fine, but then all the crap you bring up about Islam is just as invalid.

I wonder why Jenos hasn't responded to this.

[Napoleon Ier]

All France is occupied: All? NOT! A small band irreducible Gaulois resists still and always to the invader...

Sounds alot like nationalism to me - how long until you join some fucked up vigilante militant group driven by some white power motives, decorated with the French National Flag as a backdrop? You have some very strong ideals, Naps, too bad they are exclusive and selfish, topped off with a very strong dose of hatred.

Actually that sentence is from one of the best comic-books ever. Asterix & Obelix.

A veritable milestone in the post-war search for national pride...

[Neoteny]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

How about instead of proving that Islam doesn't, I prove the Christianity does? I don't care if you think Islam is designed to induce people to murder, I just don't want you to hold an absolute DOUBLE STANDARD for something you don't believe in.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

And trust me, there is much, much more.

If you want to say "That's not Christianity," then fine, but then all the crap you bring up about Islam is just as invalid.

I wonder why Jenos hasn't responded to this.

Too logical?

[Iliad]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

How about instead of proving that Islam doesn't, I prove the Christianity does? I don't care if you think Islam is designed to induce people to murder, I just don't want you to hold an absolute DOUBLE STANDARD for something you don't believe in.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

And trust me, there is much, much more.

If you want to say "That's not Christianity," then fine, but then all the crap you bring up about Islam is just as invalid.

I wonder why Jenos hasn't responded to this.

Too logical?

Too much evidence gives Christian debaters a heart attack

[Frigidus]

If you think you're being funny, you're not. I say again: Show that there are no Satanic Verses, Show that Dhirmitude is ficticious, Show that Mohammad didn't order his followers to kill off dissenters, Show that Shari'ia Law is fully compatable with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Show me these things and I might just be silenced.

How about instead of proving that Islam doesn't, I prove the Christianity does? I don't care if you think Islam is designed to induce people to murder, I just don't want you to hold an absolute DOUBLE STANDARD for something you don't believe in.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

And trust me, there is much, much more.

If you want to say "That's not Christianity," then fine, but then all the crap you bring up about Islam is just as invalid.

I wonder why Jenos hasn't responded to this.

Too logical?

Too much evidence gives Christian debaters a heart attack

Here, I'll fill in the usual rebuttal.

But Jesus said 'Let he without sin throw the first stone', so he overrode the Old Testament with some new Truth. Basically, you can't take the Old Testament at face value. Except for the part where is says gay people are an abomination. That part was spot on.

While this arguments is more likely than not technically heretical, it's the only semi-reasonable response to the various Old Testament quotes that don't fall in line with their beliefs.

[CrazyAnglican]

Um sorry it took so long to write back. That last bit of evidence nearly killed me I just got out of the hospital. Seriously though guys the reason he didn't respond to it was probably because I already had before he posted those Old Testament quotes in the first place.

Now let me be clear, I do not think of Muslims as terrorists. Frigidus *sorry Comic Boy*, however, thinks that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all violent religions. Let's put that to the test. The Old Testament shows the law as it was. Christ was the fulfillment of the law and the Old Testament took a back seat to the New Testament (Especially the Gospels). Please show where Christ advocated violence in the synoptic Gospels. If you cannot, then how can you justify stereotyping an entire religion based on the writings that most of the Christians I've spoken with agree do not contain the way to salvation? It is by following the teachings of Christ that one becomes a Christian. What exactly is it in Christ's teaching that you find violent and reprehensible?

Now fundamentally I agree with your position. No point of view or religion should be ridiculed or stereotyped. I'm merely saying that even as you guys are defending Islam you're using a whole slew of propaganda techniques and other rhetorical "dirty tricks" that don't prove anything. I mean really "Christian debaters have a heart attack when confronted with evidence." Please Iliad, how silly.

[F1fth]

Be that as it may, the point I made was that Islam as inherently violent as Christianity. Whether you want to say they are violent or they aren't is up to you, but can't one is, and one isn't, else it's a double standard.

The problem is that people are using extremist groups to represent to whole religion of Islam. Do you think it would be fair for me to use the followers Westboro Baptist Church* to represent all of Christians? No, it wouldn't, and I don't. Neither should people with Islamic extremists.

*=Followers of Westboro Baptist Church are the people who picketed the funerals of U.S. soldiers killed in action, saying that they deserved to die, and that it was God's punishment for the military allowing gays to join.

[Neoteny]

Be that as it may, the point I made was that Islam as inherently violent as Christianity. Whether you want to say they are violent or they aren't is up to you, but can't one is, and one isn't, else it's a double standard.

The problem is that people are using extremist groups to represent to whole religion of Islam. Do you think it would be fair for me to use the followers Westboro Baptist Church* to represent all of Christians? No, it wouldn't, and I don't. Neither should people with Islamic extremists.

*=Followers of Westboro Baptist Church are the people who picketed the funerals of U.S. soldiers killed in action, saying that they deserved to die, and that it was God's punishment for the military allowing gays to join.

I hear that WBC is making suggestions of picketing Heath Ledger's funeral. I'm not sure how likely it is, but comparing anyone to them would be a bit of an overstatement...

[Frigidus]

Um sorry it took so long to write back. That last bit of evidence nearly killed me I just got out of the hospital. Seriously though guys the reason he didn't respond to it was probably because I already had before he posted those Old Testament quotes in the first place.

Now let me be clear, I do not think of Muslims as terrorists. Frigidus *sorry Comic Boy*, however, thinks that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all violent religions. Let's put that to the test. The Old Testament shows the law as it was. Christ was the fulfillment of the law and the Old Testament took a back seat to the New Testament (Especially the Gospels). Please show where Christ advocated violence in the synoptic Gospels. If you cannot, then how can you justify stereotyping an entire religion based on the writings that most of the Christians I've spoken with agree do not contain the way to salvation? It is by following the teachings of Christ that one becomes a Christian. What exactly is it in Christ's teaching that you find violent and reprehensible?

Now fundamentally I agree with your position. No point of view or religion should be ridiculed or stereotyped. I'm merely saying that even as you guys are defending Islam you're using a whole slew of propaganda techniques and other rhetorical "dirty tricks" that don't prove anything. I mean really "Christian debaters have a heart attack when confronted with evidence." Please Iliad, how silly.

Oh, man, I missed this one earlier. Just to clarify I don't think that Christianity, or any of the religions discussed in this thread are naturally violent. I was just pointing out that by ignoring actual practice and only looking at any particular religion's holy book and declaring a faith violent can be applied to many religions, and not just Islam. Sorry if I sounded like an ignorant jerk.