The Titanic is unsinkable...

[Bean_]

Personally, I can't see the problem in downloading another 500,000 dice rolls from random.org and adding them to the current file.Twice as random! More interestingly, though, I'd like someone to run the entire dice file through the dice analyzer to see if its actually fair, or it's randomly biased toward a certain die result.

I thought the site got a new file whenever the current when ran out, or was that changed?

No, that is what I had thought for a while as well, but it is NOT the case. See Twill's second and third responses in the thread below:

http://www.conquerclub.com/forum/viewto ... sc&start=0

They do reuse the 500,000-line file, and switch it out only periodically. Frankly, I think CC would do better to use a Mersenne twister type PNRG algorithm if they are not going to use fresh random.org numbers for each and every roll. I am skeptical about the dice, in particular as to the frequency of very infrequent events, but without knowing exactly how CC uses the numbers it gets from random.org, I can't come to any firm conclusions.

[AndyDufresne]

Go get the dice analyzer. As for all the lines...it would be too much on the servers I think for it to go and get rolls, and then come back...hence why we have so many lines available, until they all run out. It's random. We'd have absolutely no reason to make them not random...


--Andy

[jiminski]

Shouldn't it be - The titanic was unsinkable?

Makes more sense.

Well on reflection "The Titanic wasn't unsinkable" makes more sense.

[The1exile]

They do reuse the 500,000-line file, and switch it out only periodically. Frankly, I think CC would do better to use a Mersenne twister type PNRG algorithm if they are not going to use fresh random.org numbers for each and every roll.

Fresh random.org numbers would require constantly drawing it form an external server that CC can do nothing about, but for an alternative that just occurred to me - I can't see why you can't have 100,000 (example number) of each dice number (so 600,000 total) and run it through the list randomiser every time you go through them.

Go get the dice analyzer.

Step 2: run 500,000 rolls through it? Because I do run the dice analyzer over various computers and my results have always deviated quite significantly from the average.

I think CC's dice probably are random - but the method is not there to check it properly.

[Bean_]

Fresh random.org numbers would require constantly drawing it form an external server that CC can do nothing about, but for an alternative that just occurred to me - I can't see why you can't have 100,000 (example number) of each dice number (so 600,000 total) and run it through the list randomiser every time you go through them.

I'm not sure I follow your alternative. Two alternatives I can think of are:

1. Generate most of the numbers using a good PNRG algorithm; seed it every hour (or minute, whatever) with a number from random.org.

2. Each 500,000 line file should be about 2.5MB long, and lasts for 13 hours. They should be able to download a 500,000-line file (which should take seconds) well in advance of needing to use it (caching it, basically). The limitation I see is that random.org is stingy with its numbers, because they don't have a constant stream of atmospheric noise that they can use to generate so many numbers, so I think they impose limitations.

I agree that running back and forth to random.org in real time won't work.

Go get the dice analyzer.

Step 2: run 500,000 rolls through it? Because I do run the dice analyzer over various computers and my results have always deviated quite significantly from the average.

I think CC's dice probably are random - but the method is not there to check it properly.

I think the overall distribution is equal to the distribution in the 500,000-line file being used, which should approximate randomness (but is not really random to the extent it is reused). I am agnostic as to whether each dice roll is sufficiently random by itself -- need more information to determine that.

[AndyDufresne]

Have you looked at the FAQ?

17. How do the dice work?

The dice are based on high quality random numbers from Random.org. The numbers are read from a large file containing columns of numbers from 1 to 6, in the format A1 A2 A3 D1 D2. When the dice are rolled, the game engine reads a line from the file and discards it. The appropriate numbers are used and the others are ignored. The file contains 500,000 lines of dice rolls and is re-loaded when all the lines are used up. As of November 2007 we consume 850,000 lines of dice rolls per day.

--Andy

[cfactory]

Didn't anyone bother to read my post? My point was that the wild swings the "random dice generator" comes up with are a bigger part of the game than it should be!

I feel the game should be more about strategy and less about this beloved and angrily defended random dice program! I was suggesting someone figure out a way to generate rolls that follow an average win loss formula, but controls the number of highs and lows.

The responses I read are just more proof that some members of this forum are completely closed to any new ideas re: the dice. Some calling me a whiner, others missing the point entirely because they can't even bring themselves to read the freakin' post!

Sorry for trying to violate your little programming shangri la. Damn, computer geeks sure are touchy.

[cfactory]

Most people enjoy winning. So, are you saying you want everybody to win? The dice ARE random. The dice analyzer shows that. I don't know what more you want. You want not random dice? 'Cause THAT sure as hell wouldn't start a riot, everybody knowing that their roles are predetermined. Seriously, there's only so much the site can do, and the best is to make it random, which they have.

Ya, I want everone to win. That's EXACTLY my point.

[hecter]

Jesus Christ, these guys just can't win...

"The dice aren't random!!"
"The dice are too random!!"

[cfactory]

I have read through many posts from members complaining that the dice are not random. Every time, smug senior members and mods come back with the same dismissive replies; "It's the same for everybody, if you don't like it...dice analyzer...here we go again"

The dice ARE random and I am not a senior member.

It's like the owner of the Titanic telling anyone who will listen that the ship is unsinkable as it settles deeper into the Atlantic! Conquer Club is not exactly sinking, but the analogy is still appropriate.

Actually it isn't. Far from it, CC is getting more and more members everyday and number of games played are also increasing. Statistics prove it, 1M to 1.5M games in roughly 80 days.

This is an ENTERTAINMENT website. Your members pay money to enjoy themselves. You can run around telling anyone who will listen that the numbers all add up, but the bottom line is you have dissatisfied customers. THE DICE SUCK! Half my games are ruined by 4+ to 1 losses OR WINS. It's no fun winning a game when your opponent loses 12 armies taking 3 of your armies!

This is only the one side of the story. Do the people who get these lucky dice, don't enjoy the win? Sure they do! However, luck is not all, skill is very much required. Games are won with skill, dice is just a path to victory. If you do get bad dice and thus are unable to win, at least you can be satisfied that you played better than the other even if you didn't win.

You can keep defending your dice programming and ignore the fact that you are losing customers, or you can start paying attention to your customers and try to come up with a solution that increases enjoyment while providing a game environment where the outcome is more determined by skill and not your streaky dice formula!

Just my humble opinion.

This is loosely based on risk. It is not something that CC developed itself. If you have to complain about it, please go to Hasbro and request them to change rules. Also, why don't I see, everyone on this complaining about the dice when the dice are the same to everyone? Because most of them have accepted the fact that the dice ARE random and adjust their play according to it. You should too

Through this I am just pointing out how your argument is fallacious. Please do not take it in the wrong way. Just my humble opinion

I'm glad to hear you are so open to suggestions to make a good game better. You act like I have threatened your manhood! You must have sh%# bricks when Microsoft announced the release of Windows. "Damn Bill, MS-DOS is workin' fine, why rock the boat?"

[hecter]

Why the hell are you getting so defensive? I mean, this is a bad idea. Rolling real dice are random. You have no way of accurately guessing what number will pop up. What your talking about is a big burly guy standing next to the box that you roll your dice in. If this guy feels that, say, you've one too many rolls, he'll step in and change the dice to the numbers he wants. If you don't like it then he beats your face in.

Personally, I prefer to play my games that are loosely based but not affiliated with Hasbro's game of RISK without big burly guys standing next to me threatening to beat my face in...

[Bean_]

Have you looked at the FAQ?

17. How do the dice work?

The dice are based on high quality random numbers from Random.org. The numbers are read from a large file containing columns of numbers from 1 to 6, in the format A1 A2 A3 D1 D2. When the dice are rolled, the game engine reads a line from the file and discards it. The appropriate numbers are used and the others are ignored. The file contains 500,000 lines of dice rolls and is re-loaded when all the lines are used up. As of November 2007 we consume 850,000 lines of dice rolls per day.

--Andy

Not sure if this question is directed at me, but yes, I have. It's still too general to permit an analysis of the methodology. For example, a reasonable interpretation of this could be that a file of 500k lines is loaded, used linearly, and then a new file is loaded when finished.

However, I learned this week that the same file is used over and over again, the use of the lines is not linear, and (I'm still unclear about this) if a line is used, it cannot be reused until all of the other lines in the file are used. The is in the details!

[Genghis Khan CA]

Not sure if this question is directed at me, but yes, I have. It's still too general to permit an analysis of the methodology. For example, a reasonable interpretation of this could be that a file of 500k lines is loaded, used linearly, and then a new file is loaded when finished.

However, I learned this week that the same file is used over and over again, the use of the lines is not linear, and (I'm still unclear about this) if a line is used, it cannot be reused until all of the other lines in the file are used. The is in the details!

Bean has my vote to chair an independent inquiry into the dice!

[CrabNebula]

I have read through many posts from members complaining that the dice are not random. Every time, smug senior members and mods come back with the same dismissive replies; "It's the same for everybody, if you don't like it...dice analyzer...here we go again"

The dice ARE random and I am not a senior member.

It's like the owner of the Titanic telling anyone who will listen that the ship is unsinkable as it settles deeper into the Atlantic! Conquer Club is not exactly sinking, but the analogy is still appropriate.

Actually it isn't. Far from it, CC is getting more and more members everyday and number of games played are also increasing. Statistics prove it, 1M to 1.5M games in roughly 80 days.

This is an ENTERTAINMENT website. Your members pay money to enjoy themselves. You can run around telling anyone who will listen that the numbers all add up, but the bottom line is you have dissatisfied customers. THE DICE SUCK! Half my games are ruined by 4+ to 1 losses OR WINS. It's no fun winning a game when your opponent loses 12 armies taking 3 of your armies!

This is only the one side of the story. Do the people who get these lucky dice, don't enjoy the win? Sure they do! However, luck is not all, skill is very much required. Games are won with skill, dice is just a path to victory. If you do get bad dice and thus are unable to win, at least you can be satisfied that you played better than the other even if you didn't win.

You can keep defending your dice programming and ignore the fact that you are losing customers, or you can start paying attention to your customers and try to come up with a solution that increases enjoyment while providing a game environment where the outcome is more determined by skill and not your streaky dice formula!

Just my humble opinion.

This is loosely based on risk. It is not something that CC developed itself. If you have to complain about it, please go to Hasbro and request them to change rules. Also, why don't I see, everyone on this complaining about the dice when the dice are the same to everyone? Because most of them have accepted the fact that the dice ARE random and adjust their play according to it. You should too

Through this I am just pointing out how your argument is fallacious. Please do not take it in the wrong way. Just my humble opinion

I'm glad to hear you are so open to suggestions to make a good game better. You act like I have threatened your manhood! You must have sh%# bricks when Microsoft announced the release of Windows. "Damn Bill, MS-DOS is workin' fine, why rock the boat?"

I am very open to suggestions but when its been proved that they are not practical and/or acceptable by the majority, what can I do about it?

As for my attitude, I do apologize for it, but theres so much patience left in a person. And as for MS-DOS, many organisations still use it for being a single user single tasking OS which is way cheaper than any other OS in characteristics and requirement

[xeno]

I just lost 14 to 1 which also led to me losing the game to a fucking private. i feel like crying. But I know the dice are random and I'll get over it.

[hecter]

I just lost 14 to 1 which also led to me losing the game to a fucking private. i feel like crying. But I know the dice are random and I'll get over it.

I was honoured to lost to a private not long ago... Get over yourself dude, your rank isn't that great.

[xeno]

I just lost 14 to 1 which also led to me losing the game to a fucking private. i feel like crying. But I know the dice are random and I'll get over it.

I was honoured to lost to a private not long ago... Get over yourself dude, your rank isn't that great.

The point was that I lost 30+ points based solely on the dice. Get over YOURself.

[hecter]

I just lost 14 to 1 which also led to me losing the game to a fucking private. i feel like crying. But I know the dice are random and I'll get over it.

I was honoured to lost to a private not long ago... Get over yourself dude, your rank isn't that great.

The point was that I lost 30+ points based solely on the dice. Get over YOURself.

When I started the day, I was a Sargent. I still consider myself one because the only reason I have this 2000 point score is because I got obscenely lucky in an assassin battle royale.

[xeno]

I just lost 14 to 1 which also led to me losing the game to a fucking private. i feel like crying. But I know the dice are random and I'll get over it.

I was honoured to lost to a private not long ago... Get over yourself dude, your rank isn't that great.

The point was that I lost 30+ points based solely on the dice. Get over YOURself.

When I started the day, I was a Sargent. I still consider myself one because the only reason I have this 2000 point score is because I got obscenely lucky in an assassin battle royale.

Well that's good because I still consider myself conquerer. That dam doodle earth assassin got to me..

[hecter]

Well that's good because I still consider myself conquerer. That dam doodle earth assassin got to me..

I'll give you that one...

[Dancing Mustard]

I'm glad to hear you are so open to suggestions to make a good game better. You act like I have threatened your manhood! You must have sh%# bricks when Microsoft announced the release of Windows. "Damn Bill, MS-DOS is workin' fine, why rock the boat?"

Oh I see, you're just going to insult everybody who disagrees with your 'please rig my dice' stance... very mature. Seriously, your suggestions have been discussed several hundred times before here (others have had the same idea), but you proposals are unfortunately based on flawed reasoning which has been pointed out to you (in extremely civil terms both in the FAQ and by posters here) already. I'm trying to break it to you gently here ,but far from being an upgrade to the site your suggestions, though well intentioned, would make this site worse. This isn't people refusing to see the light, or stubbornly refusing to 'upgrade', it's just people explaining to you that your proposed idea is in fact a bad one... there's really no need to get snotty just because you weren't right, it'll only make you look like a jerk if you keep it up.

I commend your enthusiasm here, but perhaps you should try reading what's coming back to you rather than just lobbing abuse and accusing people of being stuck in the past.

[The1exile]

The point was that I lost 30+ points based solely on the dice. Get over YOURself.

51 points. Get over YOURself.

[cfactory]

I'm glad to hear you are so open to suggestions to make a good game better. You act like I have threatened your manhood! You must have sh%# bricks when Microsoft announced the release of Windows. "Damn Bill, MS-DOS is workin' fine, why rock the boat?"

Oh I see, you're just going to insult everybody who disagrees with your 'please rig my dice' stance... very mature. Seriously, your suggestions have been discussed several hundred times before here (others have had the same idea), but you proposals are unfortunately based on flawed reasoning which has been pointed out to you (in extremely civil terms both in the FAQ and by posters here) already. I'm trying to break it to you gently here ,but far from being an upgrade to the site your suggestions, though well intentioned, would make this site worse. This isn't people refusing to see the light, or stubbornly refusing to 'upgrade', it's just people explaining to you that your proposed idea is in fact a bad one... there's really no need to get snotty just because you weren't right, it'll only make you look like a jerk if you keep it up.

I commend your enthusiasm here, but perhaps you should try reading what's coming back to you rather than just lobbing abuse and accusing people of being stuck in the past.

A little touchy there aren't we Mr. Mustard? I will try to follow your example in the future and not be insulting to people who disagree with me and...oh wait. Never mind.

[wcaclimbing]

I just WON an attack of 8 v 14. that never should have happened! the dice must be rigged to make it so a guy with 8 can kill 14, because 8 is so small that never would have happened.

and yesterday, i won a 10 vs 16. the dice are screwed up, a low number can always beat a high number. I bet the dice are messed up and give the attacker way more 6s. we should make them random so i get less 6s and more of everything else so the attacks are more fair and i dont win EVERYTHING.

[/sarcasm]

but seriously, those 8v14 and 10v16 attacks really did happen, and I really did win them. If the dice are "broken" and always give you low numbers, how would you explain a win as big as those two?

[Bean_]

I just WON an attack of 8 v 14. that never should have happened! the dice must be rigged to make it so a guy with 8 can kill 14, because 8 is so small that never would have happened.

and yesterday, i won a 10 vs 16. the dice are screwed up, a low number can always beat a high number. I bet the dice are messed up and give the attacker way more 6s. we should make them random so i get less 6s and more of everything else so the attacks are more fair and i dont win EVERYTHING.

[/sarcasm]

but seriously, those 8v14 and 10v16 attacks really did happen, and I really did win them. If the dice are "broken" and always give you low numbers, how would you explain a win as big as those two?

That's a 10.0% and 13.8% chance, respectively. Since you're playing about 40 games, that's hardly shocking.