Substitute for guns?

[The1exile]

Read your initial post.

You didn't say "teaching children to hunt is not teaching them to murder". You said "teaching children to hunt is not teaching them to kill".

[InkL0sed]

So? That's a different point entirely.

Maybe my first point was worded unclearly. I meant that teaching children to hunt is not teaching them to be killers of anything but animals.

A run-down:
Point 1: "...teaching children to hunt is not teaching them to be killers of anything but animals."

Point 2: Killing animals is not murder.

[vtmarik]

2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?

It would be hypocritical to eat meat and simultaneously have a problem with taking children hunting (and teaching them them the difference between hunting and murder).

Hunting = killing
Yes, I agree with that.

But if killing animals = murder, then the Holocaust was nothing, for we as humans of any and every nation are committing genocide every day.

I think that there is a line between eating meat on a regular basis, and going out and shooting animals.

Do I eat meat? Of course, I find it quite tasty.
Do I hunt? Absolutely not.

There is no hypocrisy in a person that is opposed to the process of hunting, that is shooting wild animals and eating/taxidermy-ing them, yet eats meat as part of their diet.

The animals that are killed and sold to us are usually bred and raised to be food. A cow doesn't have much of an existence beyond being used to make milk and providing steak. A deer in the woods has more to live for than being hunted by someone hiding in a tree, in camouflage, with a high-powered rifle at a distance. It's cheating.



If you live in a cabin far away from civilization and the wonder that is the mega-mart then hunt away. It's obviously necessary to some degree.

If you're a rural-ite or suburbanite living in the proximity of a supermarket or other consumer method of obtaining food, then put the rifle down and buy a steak. Hunting is not a necessity for you.

If you still want to hunt these animals do it with the tools God gave you: your hands. Anything else is pointless and not something that any "civilized" person should engage in.

[mybike_yourface]

I'm not arguing that hunting is bad in anyway, but the fact is that you're teaching these children how to kill. Period. There's no ifs ands or buts about it.

so should you teach children self defense? self defense can invlove killing.

No, did yo... Know what, you're beyond hope.

no, i see what you're saying now. clearly hunting involves killing the hunted animal.

And where did I say this was a bad thing, or that we shouldn't do this?

i'm saying i misunderstood your point. now i get what you were saying.

[mybike_yourface]

2) Show me some statistical proof that teaching children to hunt is teaching them to kill, and maybe I'll buy your argument. Until then, you're merely speculating.

Hunting = killing

How can you not see that?

It would be hypocritical to eat meat and simultaneously have a problem with taking children hunting (and teaching them them the difference between hunting and murder).

Hunting = killing
Yes, I agree with that.

But if killing animals = murder, then the Holocaust was nothing, for we as humans of any and every nation are committing genocide every day.

I think that there is a line between eating meat on a regular basis, and going out and shooting animals.

Do I eat meat? Of course, I find it quite tasty.
Do I hunt? Absolutely not.

There is no hypocrisy in a person that is opposed to the process of hunting, that is shooting wild animals and eating/taxidermy-ing them, yet eats meat as part of their diet.

The animals that are killed and sold to us are usually bred and raised to be food. A cow doesn't have much of an existence beyond being used to make milk and providing steak. A deer in the woods has more to live for than being hunted by someone hiding in a tree, in camouflage, with a high-powered rifle at a distance. It's cheating.



If you live in a cabin far away from civilization and the wonder that is the mega-mart then hunt away. It's obviously necessary to some degree.

If you're a rural-ite or suburbanite living in the proximity of a supermarket or other consumer method of obtaining food, then put the rifle down and buy a steak. Hunting is not a necessity for you.

If you still want to hunt these animals do it with the tools God gave you: your hands. Anything else is pointless and not something that any "civilized" person should engage in.

so if we live in a city we should let large government subsidized businesses raise the animal on food(most likely raised with petro-chemical pesticides and fertilizers, antibiotics) and water that would otherwise go to feed people, kill the animal for you on an assembly line, then transport the meat using fossil fuels to you local mega mart all so you can be "civilized" and not get your hands dirty? yes that's so civilized. lots of the animals excrement and the chemicals used to grow it all ends up in our water tables and seas. industrial animal agriculture is a filthy nightmarish industry. for the workers and ultimately for the consumers as well. if you want to eat animals why don't you raise them yourself? why don't you kill them with "the tools god gave you: your hands"? what's civilized about animals being severely confined, kept in the dark in their own excrement and fed garbage?

you know what's pointless? growing food to feed to animal agriculture for a 5th or less of a return so people can feel more civilized about where their meat comes from.

[MeDeFe]

mbyf, I somehow doubt that humanity could subsist on hunting alone for any longer period of time, take a look at Europe, if everyone started hunting their own food here we'd all starve to death within a year, you Americans might need a little longer, seeing how you're so few people on such a huge area of land.
We need modern day agriculture, like it or not, I'm not saying that I like subsidies, I like them no more than you, it would be far more cost efficient to let third world countries produce the food to get their own economies up and running. You know something is seriously wrong when Dutch tomatoes are exported to Africa and sold at cheaper prices than the ones that grow there...

[Dancing Mustard]

so if we live in a city we should let large government subsidized businesses raise the animal on food(most likely raised with petro-chemical pesticides and fertilizers, antibiotics) and water that would otherwise go to feed people, kill the animal for you on an assembly line, then transport the meat using fossil fuels to you local mega mart all so you can be "civilized" and not get your hands dirty? yes that's so civilized.

No you're right, let's all drive up to the few wildernesses left in the USA in our big fat SUVs, randomly butcher the first couple of animals that we see, all enjoy the festival of killing that we've journeyed to participate in, probably leave a whole load of litter when we're done, then drive all the way back home in our SUV with the corpse of what we've slain; alternatively if we've killed something like a bear then we'll jsut discard the corpse of the creature we shot and justify it as keeping down the skyrocketing bear-population, which is pretty much like saving Alaska singlehanded from the overrunning hoards of bears you keep hearing about.

Also red-herring "I'm driving halfway across a continent to save the environment by shooting animals in the face" arguments aside. Did all of the "going on holiday to learn to shoot animals for fun could never inspire you to shoot anybody else, or to develop an unhealthy relationship with firearms and death" people ever come up with any proof of that? Or are we still left with bland assertions that going hunting just magically makes you safe with guns?

I appreciate I don't have any proof that going hunting makes people more bloodthirsty, but firstly I didn't raise the hunting issue, and secondly I'm quite happy to sit on the position that there's no evidence so far that people who go hunting are any less likely to use guns to massacre people, and therefore 'hunting = reduced gun crime' arguments are currently just speculative fictions. (Trust me, I'm happy to be swayed by evidence here, but I just don't logically see how hunting is going to make people less likely to use guns... quite the opposite in fact)


PS. This thread has kind of veered off into 'hunting = lame/awesome'. A while back I made a post about 'owning guns does not reduce gun crime'... did that just get lost in the melee, or do people generally agree?

[radiojake]

Reading this thread start to finish just then was pretty interesting. Like Dancing Mustard just pointed out, it moved from gun control - good/bad? to hunting for food - good/bad?

Clearly I'm no gun nut, I like the fact Australia has a very low gun ownership. There is a gun shop down the road from me, but until I moved here 6 months ago, I can't say I actually remember seeing a gun shop anywhere before.

As a former vegan (now only vegetarian) my thoughts on hunting for animals arm't exactly clear cut. I still remember as a kid watching my grandpa out on the farm killing one of his sheep, hanging it up and gutting it, cleaning it out, and then 2 nights later having lamb served up to me for dinner. At the time I couldn't eat it, and I didn't. But I was far from vegetarian then. Looking back now, though, I think that process was a far more natural one (as 'natural' as humans today will get, we've removed ourselves from nature so much that we are not even apart of it anymore) than how most people eat their meat.

Kill what you eat, - it will probably make a lot more people vegetarians if this was the only way you could eat your Mcdonalds.

On a side note - can't wait to live in a house where I can grow my own vegetables. Also, to cut down your wastage a massive amount, remember to dumpster dive wherever possible.

[MeDeFe]

PS. This thread has kind of veered off into 'hunting = lame/awesome'. A while back I made a post about 'owning guns does not reduce gun crime'... did that just get lost in the melee, or do people generally agree?

"Qui tacet consentire videtur" - Those who don't say anything would seem to agree, so I guess everyone agrees with you that a lot of guns don't reduce gun crime.

[Snorri1234]

PS. This thread has kind of veered off into 'hunting = lame/awesome'. A while back I made a post about 'owning guns does not reduce gun crime'... did that just get lost in the melee, or do people generally agree?

"Qui tacet consentire videtur" - Those who don't say anything would seem to agree, so I guess everyone agrees with you that a lot of guns don't reduce gun crime.

Seems silly doesn't it.

[mybike_yourface]

so if we live in a city we should let large government subsidized businesses raise the animal on food(most likely raised with petro-chemical pesticides and fertilizers, antibiotics) and water that would otherwise go to feed people, kill the animal for you on an assembly line, then transport the meat using fossil fuels to you local mega mart all so you can be "civilized" and not get your hands dirty? yes that's so civilized.

No you're right, let's all drive up to the few wildernesses left in the USA in our big fat SUVs, randomly butcher the first couple of animals that we see, all enjoy the festival of killing that we've journeyed to participate in, probably leave a whole load of litter when we're done, then drive all the way back home in our SUV with the corpse of what we've slain; alternatively if we've killed something like a bear then we'll jsut discard the corpse of the creature we shot and justify it as keeping down the skyrocketing bear-population, which is pretty much like saving Alaska singlehanded from the overrunning hoards of bears you keep hearing about.

Also red-herring "I'm driving halfway across a continent to save the environment by shooting animals in the face" arguments aside. Did all of the "going on holiday to learn to shoot animals for fun could never inspire you to shoot anybody else, or to develop an unhealthy relationship with firearms and death" people ever come up with any proof of that? Or are we still left with bland assertions that going hunting just magically makes you safe with guns?

I appreciate I don't have any proof that going hunting makes people more bloodthirsty, but firstly I didn't raise the hunting issue, and secondly I'm quite happy to sit on the position that there's no evidence so far that people who go hunting are any less likely to use guns to massacre people, and therefore 'hunting = reduced gun crime' arguments are currently just speculative fictions. (Trust me, I'm happy to be swayed by evidence here, but I just don't logically see how hunting is going to make people less likely to use guns... quite the opposite in fact)


PS. This thread has kind of veered off into 'hunting = lame/awesome'. A while back I made a post about 'owning guns does not reduce gun crime'... did that just get lost in the melee, or do people generally agree?

you're british right? you may not realize just how much wilderness there is here in the U.S. i could hunt quail and rabbit in my back yard, and that's in phoenix, Arizona which is a major city. i don't, but still it take very little travel in most areas to get out to nature here or to hunt. we have freekin jaguars here in AZ now. there's coyotes everywhere on the outskirts. i know that england killed off the majority of it's wildlife and nature a long time ago.

and people do eat bears. that said i'm not for sport or trophy hunting at all. most hunters and campers are pretty good about packing out what they pack in here.

[mybike_yourface]

Reading this thread start to finish just then was pretty interesting. Like Dancing Mustard just pointed out, it moved from gun control - good/bad? to hunting for food - good/bad?

Clearly I'm no gun nut, I like the fact Australia has a very low gun ownership. There is a gun shop down the road from me, but until I moved here 6 months ago, I can't say I actually remember seeing a gun shop anywhere before.

As a former vegan (now only vegetarian) my thoughts on hunting for animals arm't exactly clear cut. I still remember as a kid watching my grandpa out on the farm killing one of his sheep, hanging it up and gutting it, cleaning it out, and then 2 nights later having lamb served up to me for dinner. At the time I couldn't eat it, and I didn't. But I was far from i agvegetarian then. Looking back now, though, I think that process was a far more natural one (as 'natural' as humans today will get, we've removed ourselves from nature so much that we are not even apart of it anymore) than how most people eat their meat.

Kill what you eat, - it will probably make a lot more people vegetarians if this was the only way you could eat your Mcdonalds.

On a side note - can't wait to live in a house where I can grow my own vegetables. Also, to cut down your wastage a massive amount, remember to dumpster dive wherever possible.

i agree. i've been freegan on and off for a couple months now. gardening is one of the most fullfilling things in my life. good luck with getting started.

[Snorri1234]

you're british right? you may not realize just how much wilderness there is here in the U.S. i could hunt quail and rabbit in my back yard, and that's in phoenix, Arizona which is a major city. i don't, but still it take very little travel in most areas to get out to nature here or to hunt. we have freekin jaguars here in AZ now. there's coyotes everywhere on the outskirts. i know that england killed off the majority of it's wildlife and nature a long time ago.

Uhm, I think he was referring to the east- and westcoast which are the most densily populated. (And suprisingly contain the least wilderness.)

[muy_thaiguy]

Reading this thread start to finish just then was pretty interesting. Like Dancing Mustard just pointed out, it moved from gun control - good/bad? to hunting for food - good/bad?

Clearly I'm no gun nut, I like the fact Australia has a very low gun ownership. There is a gun shop down the road from me, but until I moved here 6 months ago, I can't say I actually remember seeing a gun shop anywhere before.

As a former vegan (now only vegetarian) my thoughts on hunting for animals arm't exactly clear cut. I still remember as a kid watching my grandpa out on the farm killing one of his sheep, hanging it up and gutting it, cleaning it out, and then 2 nights later having lamb served up to me for dinner. At the time I couldn't eat it, and I didn't. But I was far from i agvegetarian then. Looking back now, though, I think that process was a far more natural one (as 'natural' as humans today will get, we've removed ourselves from nature so much that we are not even apart of it anymore) than how most people eat their meat.

Kill what you eat, - it will probably make a lot more people vegetarians if this was the only way you could eat your Mcdonalds.

On a side note - can't wait to live in a house where I can grow my own vegetables. Also, to cut down your wastage a massive amount, remember to dumpster dive wherever possible.

i agree. i've been freegan on and off for a couple months now. gardening is one of the most fullfilling things in my life. good luck with getting started.

My Great-Grandpa gardened for years, and I don't think he was ever happier (except when breaking things during remodeling of one of his apartments!).

[Dancing Mustard]

you're british right? you may not realize just how much wilderness there is here in the U.S. i could hunt quail and rabbit in my back yard, and that's in phoenix, Arizona which is a major city. i don't, but still it take very little travel in most areas to get out to nature here or to hunt. we have freekin jaguars here in AZ now. there's coyotes everywhere on the outskirts. i know that england killed off the majority of it's wildlife and nature a long time ago.

Uhm, I think he was referring to the east- and westcoast which are the most densily populated. (And suprisingly contain the least wilderness.)

Thank you Snorri.

I await a response to the rest of my post (that's not me being snotty and snide btw, just what I'm doing... in real life and stuff).

Also, my parents own an allotment, we grow pretty much all our own vegetables. Glad everybody here can get together over the subject of plant farming... not what I expected, but a good thing none-the-less.

[mybike_yourface]

you're british right? you may not realize just how much wilderness there is here in the U.S. i could hunt quail and rabbit in my back yard, and that's in phoenix, Arizona which is a major city. i don't, but still it take very little travel in most areas to get out to nature here or to hunt. we have freekin jaguars here in AZ now. there's coyotes everywhere on the outskirts. i know that england killed off the majority of it's wildlife and nature a long time ago.

Uhm, I think he was referring to the east- and westcoast which are the most densily populated. (And suprisingly contain the least wilderness.)

then he should have stated that. there's so many deer on the east coast. and there's pleanty of wilderness on the west coast as well. not southern cal. but southern cal. and the eastern seaboard don't constitute america in general(as much as some people in those areas would like to think it does).

[Snorri1234]

you're british right? you may not realize just how much wilderness there is here in the U.S. i could hunt quail and rabbit in my back yard, and that's in phoenix, Arizona which is a major city. i don't, but still it take very little travel in most areas to get out to nature here or to hunt. we have freekin jaguars here in AZ now. there's coyotes everywhere on the outskirts. i know that england killed off the majority of it's wildlife and nature a long time ago.

Uhm, I think he was referring to the east- and westcoast which are the most densily populated. (And suprisingly contain the least wilderness.)

then he should have stated that. there's so many deer on the east coast. and there's pleanty of wilderness on the west coast as well. not southern cal. but southern cal. and the eastern seaboard don't constitute america in general(as much as some people in those areas would like to think it does).

See, the areas that have the most people don't have much wilderness. And those areas constitute the most people in america. I know the USA is big, but there are also 300 million people there, something which cannot be provided for without farms full of animals. Not to mention all the other motherfucking countries with even less room to hunt.

You stated that it's better to hunt than to get your meat at the supermarket which, while maybe true for you, isn't the option for the rest of the country.