Conquer Club

I thought I'd try starting a religious/political thread that might not involve arguing whether God exists or not... ...Pointless an activity as it is.

What's this about the Catholic Church beginning to think that maybe advocating unprotected sex and abstention might not be a good idea in Africa (but not yet anywhere else), after all?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/sto ... 60,00.html

Who knows, maybe Mr Bush will in turn rescind his anti-abortion policy in Africa and allow funding for family planning clinics over there again...Meaning more free condoms where they're needed most? Who knows, he might be able to make up for all the deaths in the Middle East he has caused!

I've heard about it, and it pisses me off

LOL, I did wonder if you'd be the first to respond, Ambrose - only, I didn't expect it so quickly and succinctly!

Are you saying you're against the possibility that the Catholics might advocate that condom use might be a good idea? If so, I've never understood that - I understand the argument for not allowing protected sex - in a nutshell, all that sacred sperm will die - but given the reality that lots of people do have sex with each other, and that there is a massive AIDS epidemic in Africa, wouldn't it save more lives to give out the free condoms?

Stopper wrote:LOL, I did wonder if you'd be the first to respond, Ambrose - only, I didn't expect it so quickly and succinctly!

Are you saying you're against the possibility that the Catholics might advocate that condom use might be a good idea? If so, I've never understood that - I understand the argument for not allowing protected sex - in a nutshell, all that sacred sperm will die - but given the reality that lots of people do have sex with each other, and that there is a massive AIDS epidemic in Africa, wouldn't it save more lives to give out the free condoms?

To start off on the right foot, yes, I think that contraception is non-negotiably an evil. I hold very deeply rooted beliefs about sexual morality. Before anyone accuses me of being a puritan, I'll say it right now- sex should feel good, sex is a beautiful thing, and most importantly: sex is sacred.

You're a little off in your understanding argument for not allowing protected sex. Sperm are not sacred, or else having a wet dream would be sinful, and I can assure you it is not. The sex act, however, IS sacred. Contraception desanctifies it. I don't expect you, as an atheist, to buy this argument or understand why I believe in it so much, but suffice to say I am very ardent in my views on sex.

I can assure you that the best way of saving lives in Africa is abstinence. That's how Catholics all over the world do it. That's how I plan to control how many children I have when I get married. That's how I plan to insure that I don't get STDs in a premarital relationship.

Yes, but in the absence of the will to be abstinent, shouldn't condoms be available as a backup?

There are some groups in Africa who believe you can cure AIDS by having sex with a virgin, how about we give these guys some condoms eh?

vtmarik wrote:Yes, but in the absence of the will to be abstinent, shouldn't condoms be available as a backup?

There are some groups in Africa who believe you can cure AIDS by having sex with a virgin, how about we give these guys some condoms eh?

Not in Catholic doctrine, no. The absence of the will to be abstinent is a sin. Condoms are "available" whether the Church says so or not- whether the Church endorses their use is the issue here. If you have no will to abstain, you're probably not a (practicing) Catholic.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Not in Catholic doctrine, no. The absence of the will to be abstinent is a sin. Condoms are "available" whether the Church says so or not- whether the Church endorses their use is the issue here. If you have no will to abstain, you're probably not a (practicing) Catholic.

Well, Africa isn't known for its Catholicism. But if the Pope is suggesting condom use, doesn't that change the doctrine?

vtmarik wrote:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Not in Catholic doctrine, no. The absence of the will to be abstinent is a sin. Condoms are "available" whether the Church says so or not- whether the Church endorses their use is the issue here. If you have no will to abstain, you're probably not a (practicing) Catholic.

Well, Africa isn't known for its Catholicism. But if the Pope is suggesting condom use, doesn't that change the doctrine?

The Pope didn't suggest it, it's been "suggested" by the entire world since about the 1920s.

The only way the doctrine will be changed is if the Pope changes it. At the present, he is apparently weighing his options. Though just the fact that he's giving it consideration irks me.

And yes, Africa is NOT known for its Catholicism, which is why this move won't really make a tangible difference one way or another. The difference it will make is defining exactly how "negotiable" Church doctrine is; and I don't think THIS one should be negotiable under any circumstances.

Time to watch and wait I guess.

Well, technically, there is no negotiation. The Pope says it and it's done. The Pope determines doctrine and is infallible as far as I know (gotta love those loopholes).

Wasn't one of the last promises made by the Son of God before He left "Whatever you hold true on Earth, I'll hold true in Heaven"

That means if the Pope says it is so, God must adhere. Therefore, if the Pope says "Condoms are OK by us" then they are automatically OK by God.

I hope he does lift the ban on it, considering that it's the new millennium and we can't stick to moral codes from the 1st-4th century forever.

The "infallibility" of the Pope isn't an issue I can claim to be an expert on. In light of this news, I plan to acquaint myself with it over the next few weeks.

vtmarik wrote:I hope he does lift the ban on it, considering that it's the new millennium and we can't stick to moral codes from the 1st-4th century forever.

Contraception wasn't even an issue int he 1st-4th century. People wanted as many kids as they could get up until the mid 1800s. This discovery of rubber helped the sexual revolution along.

In any case, I think this is a timeless issue regardless. A husband's love for his wife shouldn't be warped by the ages. And again, I doubt you'd understand why I feel this issue is so tightly wrapped in with the sanctity of matrimony, so I'm not even going to bother- I could present one heck of a case on this topic to other Christians though.

It'll be interesting to see what the pope fully does decide.. If he says no still though I would really like to know how many people have aids because he says no to condoms.. That would be a wonderful survey you know? Go down to the local aids wards ask how many are catholics and see how many will tell you its because they didnt use a condom because its against their religion.. hmmmmm...
Maybe thats another thread?
Salva-

OnlyAmbrose wrote:The "infallibility" of the Pope isn't an issue I can claim to be an expert on. In light of this news, I plan to acquaint myself with it over the next few weeks.

The Pope determines doctrine, therefore any discrepancy between what the Pope says and the old doctrine is immaterial since the doctrine has already been changed. Hence his infallibility.

Contraception wasn't even an issue int he 1st-4th century. People wanted as many kids as they could get up until the mid 1800s. This discovery of rubber helped the sexual revolution along.

Exactly, so why is it an issue now? Surely, if it were truly a concern of the Lord, it would be in the Holy Book. And since you seem so anti-rubber, perhaps tires are also the work of the Devil.

In any case, I think this is a timeless issue regardless. A husband's love for his wife shouldn't be warped by the ages. And again, I doubt you'd understand why I feel this issue is so tightly wrapped in with the sanctity of matrimony, so I'm not even going to bother- I could present one heck of a case on this topic to other Christians though.

Don't you dare patronize me, and f*ck you. If matrimony was truly sanctified, judges wouldn't be able to marry people. There's an extreme difference between the love between man and wife being warped and the usage of condoms to prevent the spread of disease. Then again, you probably aren't equipped to understand that, so I won't bother to explain.

vtmarik wrote:Don't you dare patronize me, and f*ck you. If matrimony was truly sanctified, judges wouldn't be able to marry people. There's an extreme difference between the love between man and wife being warped and the usage of condoms to prevent the spread of disease. Then again, you probably aren't equipped to understand that, so I won't bother to explain.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be patronizing. What I probably should have said is that, as a non-Christian, you won't accept my arguments on this particular topic as valid, so it seems pointless debating it.

vtmarik wrote:Exactly, so why is it an issue now? Surely, if it were truly a concern of the Lord, it would be in the Holy Book. And since you seem so anti-rubber, perhaps tires are also the work of the Devil.

I hardly think I gave the implication that rubber is evil. I was stating a fact- the discovery of rubber in the early 19th/late 18th century greatly accelerated the sexual revolution. No need to get testy

And it's an issue now because, unlike back then, it is more economically beneficial to have LESS children, since most of them actually survive past childhood. It's a concern of the Lord because, as I said before, sex is sacred. THAT is quite clear in the Bible, particularly in the case of Onan, and others.

In any event, I apologize if my last post made you angry in its tone. Though i am trying to keep a level head, this is a topic I'm known to be over-passionate about.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:I hardly think I gave the implication that rubber is evil. I was stating a fact- the discovery of rubber in the early 19th/late 18th century greatly accelerated the sexual revolution. No need to get testy

I'm sorry, but the way you're wording it seems that the only use for rubber is to make condoms. Latex, which is used to make rubber, is also used to make medical gloves, chicle (a base for chewing gum), tires, and silly putty.

Let's not assume that it accelerated the sexual revolution, since condoms have been around since the 16th-17th century (See History of Condoms)

And it's an issue now because, unlike back then, it is more economically beneficial to have LESS children, since most of them actually survive past childhood. It's a concern of the Lord because, as I said before, sex is sacred. THAT is quite clear in the Bible, particularly in the case of Onan, and others.

Onan spilled his seed upon the ground because he didn't want to have sex with his recently widowed sister-in-law. He wasn't denigrating the sexual act as you claim he did.

In any event, I apologize if my last post made you angry in its tone. Though i am trying to keep a level head, this is a topic I'm known to be over-passionate about.

Sorry, but it was a bit condescending.

Hey Hey Boys...
You forgot to mention the latex lingerie!! Whats wrong with your minds think about the wonderful world of possibilitys people!!!!!!!!!!!

Latex does: balloons, clothes, gloves as VTMarik mentioned, rubber bands, pacifiers, condoms which is the most obvious of all!

I could go on longer however I wont do that and bore you guys.

Look at all the possibilitys though not just 1 or two!

Salva-

salvadevinemasse wrote:Hey Hey Boys...
You forgot to mention the latex lingerie!! Whats wrong with your minds think about the wonderful world of possibilitys people!!!!!!!!!!!

Latex does: balloons, clothes, gloves as VTMarik mentioned, rubber bands, pacifiers, condoms which is the most obvious of all!

I could go on longer however I wont do that and bore you guys.

Look at all the possibilitys though not just 1 or two!

Salva-

*selfsmack* How could I have forgotten the latex lingerie?

salvadevinemasse wrote:
Hey Hey Boys...
You forgot to mention the latex lingerie!! Whats wrong with your minds think about the wonderful world of possibilitys people!!!!!!!!!!!

Latex does: balloons, clothes, gloves as VTMarik mentioned, rubber bands, pacifiers, condoms which is the most obvious of all!

I could go on longer however I wont do that and bore you guys.

Look at all the possibilitys though not just 1 or two!

Salva-


....How could I have forgotten the latex lingerie?....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VTMarik-
I dont know... How is it possible? A guy as smart as you.. had to have it somewhere in the back of his mind..? Who knows maybe its a christmas idea for someone since I have now reminded the world it exists!!!

*puts hands on hips with a fake attitude and a weird look on her face*

Salva-

Well, maybe it was because I was trying to relate to OA who's a very strict catholic.


*makes note to buy girlfriend latex outfits*

Well, maybe it was because I was trying to relate to OA who's a very strict catholic.


*makes note to buy girlfriend latex outfits*
_____________________________________________________________

VTMarik-
I'm sure she'll love whatever you get her! Your smart enough where you'll figure out what she likes.

Salva-

salvadevinemasse, don't you know how to use the quote function?

"salvadevinemasse, don't you know how to use the quote function?"


yes, yes I do.. however why use it when I'm perfectly capable of copy and paste and I like my system better? But thank you for asking!

salva

salvadevinemasse wrote:"salvadevinemasse, don't you know how to use the quote function?"


yes, yes I do.. however why use it when I'm perfectly capable of copy and paste and I like my system better? But thank you for asking!

salva

i believe he was referring to the post looking better and more organized with the quote BBCode.

salvadevinemasse wrote:
"salvadevinemasse, don't you know how to use the quote function?"


yes, yes I do.. however why use it when I'm perfectly capable of copy and paste and I like my system better? But thank you for asking!

salva


i believe he was referring to the post looking better and more organized with the quote BBCode.
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I understand that. Its okay if you all want to use that, however I just happen to have my way of doing things.. Doesnt mean its a bad thing.. However it is my way. I do thank you for your concern about my posting techniques however I am a big girl and know how to click a mouse!

salva-

salvadevinemasse wrote: however I am a big girl

Slimfast? I don't know, there are diets out there that could help you with your problem.

yeah yeah smart ass.. I'm 135 for your information..

salva-