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Ethics

Postby Nobuo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:22 pm

A while ago I tried to set up a pantheism thread and failed pretty miserably--the whole thing never rose above taunting on all sides. I realize now that it is not a good idea to try to deal with matters from the top downwards and so I've started this thread so that we can more rationally discuss the roots of the issue (the only real reason I set up the other thread was so that I could eventually talk about ethics). That being said, I don't think my ethical system can be understood fully without pantheism but that is beside the issue as I will not talk about God at all in the rest of the thread as I think my ethical system can be viewed from any stand point.

Given a single value, it is immediately apparent that in every situation there will a single decision or single course of action which most promotes and furthers that value. Objective ethics are just an extension of this--an attempt to describe how to act in a manner that furthers a desirable goal. Of course, the creation of ethics is hindered by the fact that we are not omniscient, omnipotent beings and therefore cannot know which actions are most advantageous nor would we be necessarily able to fulfill our vision if somehow enlightened. This does not, however, imply the nonexistence of ethics since ethics as a concept transcends humanity’s attempts to implement it practically. Furthermore, the fact that all realities are approaching the same ideal of perfection from different directions does not make that ideal ambiguous in any way. My system of ethics is a guideline towards objectively furthering an unspecified value as efficiently as possible. The objectivity of ethics is necessary due to the fact that some ā€œmost-value-promoting actionā€ must exist; the efficiency of ethics is assumed because even if inefficiency was something to be valued, this could be achieved through efficiently implementing another value and therefore completely neglecting the actual value of inefficiency.

With that in mind, I have come up with a hierarchy of considerations the individual must take into account when acting, regardless of the value society promotes:

1. Simplicity
2. Motivation
3. Responsibility
4. Respect
5. Utility

The main goal of ethics is to achieve a value as simply as possible in order to maximize the efficiency by which that value is created and to facilitate the objective implementation of the theory through avoiding convolution and obscurity. This mantra of simplicity extends beyond mere advice and represents the fundamental problems with which ethics wrestles. Oftentimes, the biggest concern threatening a society is that the individual, by seemingly pursuing the promotion of the value the society cherishes, in fact reduces that value. One major form of this is negative competition--anything that can be likened to an arms race wherein each party would feel incredibly unsafe if they stopped building weapons but through this continued mentality everyone involved feels increasingly insecure. There are two ways in which this could be avoided: either all individuals could simply trust one another or a larger entity must intercede and set a limit on how far the competition can escalate. Regardless, both of these options seek the same thing: to avoid the unnecessary complexity generated by negative competition and to instead find contentment in some form of simplicity. From this perspective, crimes must be prosecuted by the state because if allowed, they would continue to escalate (if murder was rampant, paranoia would be ubiquitous and everyone would rush to kill off their neighbors so that their neighbors did not kill them first). This is essential because otherwise people who always seek to fulfill the value they are supposed to will act contrary to the value’s promotion even while still thinking they are acting correctly. This, more organized aspect of ethics, is very different from the remainder (which is more concerned with the endeavor of the individual) and assumes that ultimately, humanity will be unable to trust each other. This form of competition limiting is the role of the governments of the world and the only facet of ethics they can really cover as one can’t control the mindsets of people. Even on an individual level, though, trust must be fostered and some level of conformity (but only to the point of simplicity) is necessary for any value to be promoted.

Any system of ethics can either focus on the period preceding an action (motivation), the action itself, or the period following the action (consequences) to determine the merits of the action itself. Most theories on the subject of ethics acknowledge the fact that it is necessary to consider the motivation as it is absurd to assume that the man who did something by accident is as culpable as the man who did that same thing deliberately. By doing so they do not simply lay down instruction and hope it is followed but instead hope to cultivate correct mindset in the individual so that they understand the purpose of ethics and that they therefore do the advantageous thing regardless of the situation. This is because following some code of ethics means nothing if the individual is doing so only as long as breaking it isn't more attractive or society is no longer forcing them to it. It is incredibly important that once a motivation that furthers the value of choice is chosen, the individual never deviates from being in that state of mind. For even if no harmful actions occurred due to this loss of correct motivation, the individual’s expectation for incorrect mindset will have been increased and therefore they are more likely to be motivated incorrectly when it is of importance to act correctly. It is immediately apparent that motivation holds appeal over simply considering actions and consequences as motivations can easily be understood and replicated--a necessity if we are trying to formulate a system of objective ethics.

The next question, after we have established the necessity of incorporating motivation into any system of objective ethics, which of the remaining two possible focal points of ethics are more important, actions or consequences? Though it has been the argument of deontologists such as Kant to associate motivations with actions and avoid situational consequences completely because we cannot predict with complete certainty what those consequences would be, this is an argument that seems, intuitively, to be incredibly irresponsible and therefore out of place in ethics. Just because we cannot know what the specific consequences of our actions are does not mean we should not consider the specific consequences of our actions in order to say we have the correct ethical mindset. Such a mindset, as stated before, would be completely focused on the promotion of ethical value by virtue of the characteristics of the value itself and would always endeavor to implement the associated ethical system as a result. This is a much more reliable mindset for ethics, once achieved, than Kant’s notion of obedient good will and, in general, all deontological theories require similarly lifeless individuals who are so caught up in the present they lose sight of everything else around them and ahead of them.

Of course, just because the extremes of deontology are unsatisfactory, doesn’t mean we can simply do the opposite and come away with ethics, a middle path must be tread. As displeasing as the irresponsibility of believing the ends don’t justify the means is, the irresponsibility associated with constantly anticipating the improvements of the future or the otherwise unseen and therefore never acting realistically--potentially harming others in order to prepare for the improbable--is at least as worse. Even more disturbing is the belief that you can always correctly predict the events of the future or are otherwise more entitled to create various justifications for your own actions. There are a whole host of other irresponsible attitudes that correspond to believing that the ends do justify the means from the hubristic to the disregard of the seemingly ā€œillusoryā€ concerns of this universe. Therefore the path of responsibility is one to be treaded with extreme caution (be responsible responsibly)--one must concern oneself with the future but not anticipate the future, one must believe that the ends do justify the means but not actively attempt to justify their own actions, etc. Personal responsibility for the ramifications of ones actions and not the actions themselves is another necessity of any ethical system, regardless of its values.

Finally, another aspect of individual ethics can be formed from the requirements of simplicity and responsibility: that trust is built and that the individual does not assume he can foresee all consequences of his actions and therefore does not actively seek to create justifications for his actions. This notion is that of respect: that one individual cannot notice that his neighbor is not furthering ethical value and therefore take it upon himself to make said neighbor act ā€œcorrectly.ā€ Oftentimes, a critique lodged at objective ethics (and particularly at utilitarianism) by moral relativists is that it is wrong to impose your own will on others--not only is this a misperception of objective ethics, but objective ethics would in fact require that individuals respect one another (except in cases where philosophical simplicity would be gained through the violation of this respect such as in the imprisonment of a criminal). Only after an individual has considered whether they are promoting simplicity, motivated correctly, acting responsibly, and respecting others should they turn towards a utilitarian view and actively try to predict the consequences of their actions in order to decide how to act with regard to the ethical value of society (this is the final consideration of utility).

Now, of course, so far I have talked very abstractly and avoided talking about what this "ethical value" would be so that the above system could be used in service of any value one could foresee. However, the general purpose of ethics is no secret as it is identical to the only real desire of humankind: happiness. This, of course, cannot be justified as "objective" without religion so we have to settle for the fact that happiness is generally thought of as ideal.

Nothing really needs to be done to explain the relationship between simplicity and happiness as negative competition only results in arbitrary and needless complexity that is detrimental to everyone. What about individual motivation in a happy-oriented ethical system?
I have investigated a lot of different mindsets and the only one that I think leads to the happiness of others is selflessness. "Kindness" or sympathy towards others would only go so far as it would be skewed towards those in your immediate vicinity which would breed xenophobia (an excess of empathy leads to hostility towards those who aren't as similar to you as you thought they were) and since this would cause unnecessary war and genocide, it cannot be ethical. As I said before, it means nothing if you only act ethically while it's attractive or out of obedience to some entity that might not always be there, so neither of these work, either. Furthermore, I have concocted a very lengthy argument for why selflessness directly leads to the individual's happiness and will be happy to reveal it, if pressed, but this first post is already long enough as it is. Assuming this, ethical egoism is also faulty simply because it would not fulfill its own premise that by pursuing happiness, one could gain happiness.

It is important to note that selflessness of this form would not lead to mindless destruction of the self as this would not promote simplicity. A critique of utilitarianism is that one could never go to sleep because better actions could always be taken and that one would be prompted to sawing off limbs whenever possible; this is not a lacking of my theory as such arbitrary selflessness would only lead to needless complexity and therefore be avoided easily because it would not possess the same unstoppable nature as negative competition has. Responsibility and respect would go relatively unchanged as concepts when comparing their incarnations in both generic objective ethics and happy-centered ethics. A small addition to the concept of respect would be forgiveness as you could not be grateful for what you have nor mindful of the future if you were constantly concerned with the past. Again, my theory would have the advantage over utilitarianism that it does not advise doctors to collect people off the street in order to harvest their organs for the greater good as this does is neither responsible nor respectful (and in all likelihood, does not lead to simplicity). Additionally, since my system does ultimately hold that the ends do justify the means (though this path needs to be tread extremely carefully), you would not be prevented from killing a single person in order to save the world as you would in deontological systems.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:45 pm

Did you write that yourself? Is it all your own work?
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Re: Ethics

Postby Nobuo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:56 pm

The theory itself is my own work. Of course, I make allusions to theories that I'm responding to that I have found to be insufficient descriptions of ethics (it's not as if I'm producing anything completely out of a vacuum here--I had inspiration). I'm very interested to here your views on the above, suggs, as, if I recall correctly, you claimed to be a relativist.
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Re: Ethics

Postby Dancing Mustard on Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:59 pm

Well it was a very long post. Well done.
Wayne wrote:Wow, with a voice like that Dancing Mustard must get all the babes!

Garth wrote:Yeah, I bet he's totally studly and buff.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:05 pm

thoughts as i am reading it:

think simplicity and utility are the same thing (in the way you describe them) - or perhaps simplicity is a component of utility - you mention a few times how, for a value to be optimised, it has to be simple.
thinking about it, iy does seem as if you are saying that for greatest efficiency to be reached, it has to be simple.
This isn't really a significant objection, because you could maybe just reduce your hierarchy to four.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:11 pm

But another thing that leaps to the eye, is what about all the things you have left out as criteria for what makes an act good?

-justice
-love
-pleasure seeking/hedonism
-courage
-honesty
-power (thats for Nap and the Nietsche boys ;) )

etc

and here we run into the first real problem with your approach, and yes I'm afraid relativism rears its ugly head.
What makes your list, and what doesnt'?
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Re: Ethics

Postby jiminski on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:13 pm

suggs wrote:thoughts as i am reading it:

think simplicity and utility are the same thing (in the way you describe them) - or perhaps simplicity is a component of utility - you mention a few times how, for a value to be optimised, it has to be simple.
thinking about it, iy does seem as if you are saying that for greatest efficiency to be reached, it has to be simple.
This isn't really a significant objection, because you could maybe just reduce your hierarchy to four.


I am sorry i have not really read it except to skim .. but i think he means Utility in the Bentham sense i.e decisions on morality are based upon the greatest positive use and bringer of happiness to 'society'. hehe i am very likely completely wrong and i will edit this post later once i read the post ;)
Last edited by jiminski on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:16 pm

You said:

"However, the general purpose of ethics is no secret as it is identical to the only real desire of humankind: happiness."

NO.
That is the position of Utilitarianism.
The "purpose of ethics" is to work out how to live the "best" life.
That may be to the greatest happiness of the greatest number. (Bentham, Mill etc)
Or it may be to always act in way that you would will your act to be acted on by everyone else. (Kant)
Or it may be to act in a way that means you perfect yourself as ahuman being, ie maximise your potential (Aristotle)
etc
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:19 pm

Yes, Jim he does mean it in that sense, ie Utility=happiness.
But my point was that really, in this case, simplicity is very similar - Nobou seemed to be saying that it for an act to be maximum utility, it should be simple.
I kinda regret posting that bit, because I don't really think its a very pertinent point on my part, or even an important part of Nobo's system.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:22 pm

So, to sum up, your ethical system is based on the primary value being selflessness?
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Re: Ethics

Postby jiminski on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:24 pm

suggs wrote:Yes, Jim he does mean it in that sense, ie Utility=happiness.
But my point was that really, in this case, simplicity is very similar - Nobou seemed to be saying that it for an act to be maximum utility, it should be simple.
I kinda regret posting that bit, because I don't really think its a very pertinent point on my part, or even an important part of Nobo's system.


well you never know the gravity he places on that aspect of his thought... it may be a point he is pleased to clarify.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:26 pm

A problem is, you (surprisingly, given the length of your post) don't explain how you come to that conclusion.
Please spell out for me why you think selflessness is the important value, or rathtr, in your terms, promotes the greatest utility?

And thats another problem - altho you profess not to like Utilitarianism, your ethical system is basically Rule Utilitarianism -its still the greatest happiness for the greatest number , dressed up in slightly different clothes.
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Re: Ethics

Postby Nobuo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:28 pm

Simplicity is on a grander scale than utility--it allows for the intervention of governmental forces into personal lives only when things would escalate out of control otherwise. The individual should make decisions for himself taking into consideration utility (but only after simplicity, motivation, responsibility, and respect) and not subject others to his perceptions of what the future will be like.

As far as the various components of virtue that you described, I argue that all virtue is, in fact, the same thing: selflessness and would therefore come secondary to simplicity in importance in my hierarchy. Again, I maintain that through hedonism you do not gain happiness (it is only through virtue that happiness can be attained) and I can reveal my argument for this later once the basics of my theory are established. Therefore, I see no reason why relativism needs to come in at all except for the fact that happiness is not necessarily the value ethics should follow.

Tell me a better motivation from which happiness would flow than from selflessness, Suggs, and I'll make that the motivation of happiness based ethics.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:32 pm

Well, you alluded to a few -the opposite, self -interest or egoism is an option.
Or, domianting and controlling other people (ok, thats not really what Nietsche said), but that was a popular root to happiness in the 20th century.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:35 pm

Or love.
Or honesty.
etc
we're back to the fundamental problem with ethics -its deciding these "fundamental" values which always trips the moral philosopher up.
The Romans seemed quite happy with honour being the beset route to happiness.
Yet that seems a bit absurd to us.
But equally, talk to a dealer on Wall street, and he'd laugh in your face if you calimed that selflessness was the answer.
So, yes, I'm afraid relativism does come into it.
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Re: Ethics

Postby jiminski on Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:42 pm

I think the point is that selflessness and selfishness are not mutually exclusive.

If we use a 'trick' like Rousseau uses in employing the 'Social Contract', the 2 can sit quite happily on the same pedestal.
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Postby Nobuo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:04 pm

What is love? I claim that love is the urge on the part of one entity to completely merge with another and therefore necessarily puts that entity's interests first. Thus, I do not think that true love can be anything but selfless as it is fundamentally oriented beyond the self. If you lust for something, on the other hand, you only care about how it furthers your own goals and will therefore discard it as soon as it fails in this aspect. Lust will lead to unnecessary complexity and therefore contradict the first ethical precept of simplicity--if everyone is lusting after the same thing they will resort to more and more violent methods of attaining that thing and therefore no one will be happy. Similarly, it is necessary to distinguish love from sympathy as this only leads to xenophobia, as described in the first post.

What is courage? I claim that all courage is selflessly doing what is inconvenient. This is distinct from overconfidence, or hubris, which through its selfishness assumes that the self is infallible and thus leads to irresponsibility. Courage also implies that the individual fully understands the nature of their actions (you are not courageous if you do not realize what you are doing is dangerous) so that it must not be self-deluding--it must be responsible. All other virtues can be broken down into selflessness like this and I think that as long as you are being selfless in any way, you can proceed down to other considerations.

I claim, Suggs, that not only will rampant greed lead to negative competition (think of resource depletion or other self defeating behavior) but that it will not lead to the happiness of the individuals involved (as the pleasures they accumulate increase, their desire and expectation for pleasure only increases and thus will never be satisfied). I will do a more complete explanation for why selflessness and happiness are unshakably interrelated later, if you are still interested.

I am well aware of Locke and social contract theory, Jiminski, and such a theory resembles my foremost concern, simplicity. However, I do think that in order to be truly happy themselves, individuals have to not pursue their own happiness first.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:41 pm

Something about your use of "simplicity" I find makes me uneasy.

Look, imagine this scenario. I admit i haven't really thought this through, but it flags up my uneasiness:

A man and a woman are lost in a massive maze. They are separate, and completely unaware of each others existence.
They have been trying to find their way out for some time, and are quite tired. (Although in fact, both of them have hardly explored much of the maze at all -much going round in circles has occurred.)

All of a sudden, they hear a gunshot, followed by a child's scream. It sounds like both have happened OUTSIDE the Maze.
A second later, two men in white suits appear (though they of course, only see 1 man each!) They are in fact an Angel appearing in two different places at the same time.
"Listen carefully. There is not much time. A child has been shot outside the maze. I am powerless to intervene. The child is bleeding to death, and the ambulance will not arrive in time. But i have a map showing the way out of here, and some Holy Water which will cure the child. Go now!"

The woman looks at the map, takes the Holy Water, and 2 mins later is out of the maze.
She saves the child's life.

The other man is an atheist. He laughs at the angel, refuses to take the paper and walks off.
The other child dies.
But the man (who never escapes the maze) goes on to have some remarkable adventures in the Maze. At one point he saves a whole family from death by surprising a mugger in the maze.
He also discovers an underground well, with which he supplies the whole family with water.
In the end, a whole thriving community is born inside the Maze.
And indeed, they decide to call it heaven.

Now, who acted the most morally?
The womans action was clearly the simplest, and indeed had a great result.
But the man, (who also wasted most of his life before the happy events unfolded) clearly acted with a great deal of complexity.
And there is a strong case for saying he did the best thing.

So is simplicity a useful ethical principle? I'm not so sure.
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Re: Ethics

Postby Nobuo on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:10 pm

I really like examples; keep coming up with ones and I'll try to come up with responses. Personally, I'm better at thinking abstractly, so I tend to not use examples as much as I should.

You're thinking of simplicity in all the ways it could possibly be used as a term, not the way I use it. I confine the use of "simplicity" as a generalization for the reason why governments must intercede in individual affairs--to prevent them from competing with each other for some reason and through that competition defeat themselves. I am not implying that you should drink water instead of coffee, play tic-tac-toe instead of chess or adhere to any other connotation simplicity could have. On the one hand it's necessary to communicate things concisely while on the other it is necessary to convey meaning so I'm sorry if I've failed in finding the path of moderation here.

Simplicity doesn't enter into the equation here because neither individual is acting in a way that would escalate out of control (unless the child's parents held a grudge against the atheist and began killing off his family, ultimately leading to some sort of clan war--but that wouldn't really be his fault). Therefore, as long as both are acting selflessly, responsibly, and considering the consequences of their actions they are both doing the ethical thing. How can this still be objective? Both individuals have had different lives (necessary as they have such different views) and are therefore in different situations--the thought behind objective ethics is that there is one ethical thing to do in every situation. What is the point of all this ethics then, does it really mandate anything? Yes, if both individuals were acting ethically, the same considerations would be racing through their heads as they tried to make a decision--this must necessarily be the trademark of objective ethics. Additionally, we can, as rational observers, examine the arguments each made with themselves (if we had access to their thoughts) and determine which one was being more selfless, more responsible, etc. By adhering to relativism, you refuse this ability completely and instead hold that there is nothing that can be called objectively ethical.

That being said, you can't be called ethical simply because you stumble into encounters like the atheist did where good can be done nor can you be called ethical simply because you swoop from mountain to mountain in desperation trying to save everyone as the theist did. People are dying all over the world all the time and no one person can save them all (this would not be simple because such a system would easily topple over and the value the individual was pursuing would be negatively affected). On the other hand, you might get lucky and have an opportunity to do enormous good--this would not make you inherently more ethical than anyone else. Just the fact that we approach everything with selfless intention (bounded by simplicity and supplemented by responsibility and respect) is enough to say we are doing the right thing since we cannot know precisely what will happen in the future but we should be motivated to assist in its betterment.
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Re: Ethics

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:44 pm

People seem to be taking this thread seriously - I guess such a long post at the beginning has discouraged those with attention span of a stunned amoeba.

I spent a considerable part of my life trying to find the answer to the question "what is right action" - a question which I think cuts to the core of religions, ethics, philosophy, and self-esteem.

I read Nietsche, Kant, Plato, Gurdgieffe, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Koran, Bertrand Russel, CVarlos Castaneda, Ken Kesey, the Tibetan Book of the Dead, The Leviathan, Aleister Crowley, Anton La vey, works of Zen Buddism and straight Buddism, Colin Wilson, H G Wells, the Bhagavad-Gita, G B Shaw, the Arabian Nights and Sufi stories of Mulla Nasser-Udin, The Imitation of Christ, oh I could go on.

Rather than debate your own attempted formulation of a code of ethics and compare it to dozens of others, or enter into a searching examination of the terms of your essay, I'd like to offer you the end result of my own search for the principle of right action.
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Re: Ethics

Postby jonesthecurl on Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:58 pm

Sorry for the interruption - the Right Action at that exact moment was to go and check that that was a sleepy snort from one of my kids and not a bad dream...

Anyhow, I spent some while thinking that the best formulation of the "right thing to do" was the Golden Rule, expressed differently in various religions and cultures, but which we are most familiar with as "Do unto other as you would that they do unto you". But I decided against this in the end (Sorry Jesus) on the obvious basis that we don't all want the same thing.

The principle which guides my actions today is simple and personal:
I try as hard as I can to be the sort of person I'd admire if I met them.

Sounds trivial. But think about it. No sulking. No selfishness. No arguing with the family in public. No making up statistics on the spot. Treating people you meet with respect (that might be the "me" I want to admire me). No cruelty. No disrespect. No putting up with villains. No keeping quiet while arseholes abuse the disadvantaged.

Carry on the list for yourself.
The list you make defines who you are and what your ethics are.
A circular argument I know, but it is the result of years of thought and study, expansion and refinement of the principles.
And ultimately,whoever it is you aspire to be, the only practical gauge I've devised or encountered.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:58 am

To me, Jonesy (and this no bad thing) it really sounds like your ethics are pretty much indistinguishable from the Categorical Imperative.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:01 am

Nobuo - please give a clear definition of simplicity.
Do you mean "government intervention"?
Or some notion of equilibrium? ie a moral action that cn be effective because it will lead to some kinda of sustained and real effect?

Sorry to keep banging on about it.
But much of your argument seems to depend on it.
So far it sounds a bit vague, a bit too all embracing to be a useful concept.

A definition that is shorter than 4 lines would be good.
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Re: Ethics

Postby suggs on Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:03 am

Or Jones, from another angle: what if I admire people that physically hurt people to get their own way? By your definition, if I acted consistently by by own moral standards, i should physically hurt people as well.
And yet, intuitively, that doesn't sound very moral.
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Re: Ethics

Postby jonesthecurl on Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:49 am

Well, I guess that's where being an anarchist comes in: I am not responsible for anyone else's moral code, or behaviour - just my own. And at the end of the day so is everyone else. Whether they think they're an anarchist or not.
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