Conquer Club

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

That's a big HELL NO!

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

Firstly, "the liberals"? What liberals? The ones from Amsterdam?

Secondly, Snorri was oversimplifying, but he isn't wrong. He's referring to Manifest Destiny -- you may have heard of it? Say, the Trail of Tears, perchance?

I suppose there's no way you'd know anything about how the Proclamation of 1763 led to the American Revolution and why it pissed off the colonists.

Firstly, "the liberals"? What liberals? The ones from Amsterdam?

Secondly, Snorri was oversimplifying, but he isn't wrong. He's referring to Manifest Destiny -- you may have heard of it? Say, the Trail of Tears, perchance?

The Trail of Tears is partially associated with Manifest Destiny, just as the Union Pacific Railroad was, and the Oregon, Bozemon, and California Trails. Also included (if not the exact same thing) as Westward Expansion. But that was back in the mid 19th century and the early 20th at the latest, not the entire history though, therein lies the problem of this incredibly oversimplified argument. Which, ironically enough, Americans are often accused of this very thing.

Of course it is irresponsible to say something like that. There were many factors involved in the founding of America. Different people groups from Europe had different kinds of relationships with native indian tribes. To generalize and say that we just wanted to live wherever we wanted is not correct. I do believe that there were gross atrocities committed against the indians but we also have made attempts to make up for them.

CoffeeCream wrote:Of course it is irresponsible to say something like that. There were many factors involved in the founding of America. Different people groups from Europe had different kinds of relationships with native indian tribes. To generalize and say that we just wanted to live wherever we wanted is not correct. I do believe that there were gross atrocities committed against the indians but we also have made attempts to make up for them.

This is true. But we're talking about Americans' thinking they had a right to live wherever they desired. Now, what else was Manifest Destiny but a rationalization for going to live where the colonists wanted -- namely, the West?

For that matter, how did they get here in the first place...?

In any case, taken out of context, it does seem like a gross generalization; but Snorri was just using over-simplification as a rhetorical device to get his point across.

Actually, it was to make the country be from coast to coast or "Sea to shining sea," if you will. The people moving out West were there to cement it, making more the whole "live where you want to" bit at best, secondary, not primary.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Actually, it was to make the country be from coast to coast or "Sea to shining sea," if you will. The people moving out West were there to cement it, making more the whole "live where you want to" bit at best, secondary, not primary.

No, it was because they believed they had the right to it.

I have the primary documents to prove it.

InkL0sed wrote:This is true. But we're talking about Americans' thinking they had a right to live wherever they desired. Now, what else was Manifest Destiny but a rationalization for going to live where the colonists wanted -- namely, the West?

If this was true then Americans wouldn't have stopped with just expanding west. Remember, there were other national powers that were rushing to take over that territory as well. You had the Russians & Spanish for starters. We shouldn't assume that American Indians would have been treated any better under their empires than ours.

InkL0sed wrote:For that matter, how did they get here in the first place...?

The pilgrims came over here to flee religious persecution. They actually got along with the tribe that they came into contact with. John Smith is a whole different kind of situation. He was a jerk in my opinion. We can't lump everyone into one big group.

InkL0sed wrote:In any case, taken out of context, it does seem like a gross generalization; but Snorri was just using over-simplification as a rhetorical device to get his point across.

Yeah, he's a good guy I know I've said things many times that if I had stopped to think about it I would probably take it back. If Snorri is allowed to use over-simplification as a style of argument then shouldn't everyone else be allowed to use it as well to get across their points?

Well, CC, everyone does. Of course that's somewhat oversimplified, but I think it gets the point across.

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

Well American history certainly seems like that white americans felt they had the right to take whatever land they wanted from the indians, and if they didn't comply, they would kill them.

Wow, sounds like today, just replace the word 'indians' with 'middle easterns' and add the word 'oil' with 'land' and you're just about on the money

A broad generalisation, yes, but hey... you brought this up -

radiojake wrote:

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

Well American history certainly seems like that white americans felt they had the right to take whatever land they wanted from the indians, and if they didn't comply, they would kill them.

Wow, sounds like today, just replace the word 'indians' with 'middle easterns' and add the word 'oil' with 'land' and you're just about on the money

A broad generalisation, yes, but hey... you brought this up -

Without any offence but since you are from Australia you have done the same things to Aborigines, haven't you?

Ntetos wrote:

radiojake wrote:

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

Well American history certainly seems like that white americans felt they had the right to take whatever land they wanted from the indians, and if they didn't comply, they would kill them.

Wow, sounds like today, just replace the word 'indians' with 'middle easterns' and add the word 'oil' with 'land' and you're just about on the money

A broad generalisation, yes, but hey... you brought this up -

Without any offence but since you are from Australia you have done the same things to Aborigines, haven't you?

At least they stopped doing it. Right?

MeDeFe wrote:Well, CC, everyone does. Of course that's somewhat oversimplified, but I think it gets the point across.

How can you say that? not everyone in CC does that. Huh, you'll be using irony and other unfair clever things like that next.

jonesthecurl wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:Well, CC, everyone does. Of course that's somewhat oversimplified, but I think it gets the point across.

How can you say that? not everyone in CC does that. Huh, you'll be using irony and other unfair clever things like that next.

i think he was talking to CoffeeCream and not ConquerClub.

DAZMCFC wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:Well, CC, everyone does. Of course that's somewhat oversimplified, but I think it gets the point across.

How can you say that? not everyone in CC does that. Huh, you'll be using irony and other unfair clever things like that next.

i think he was talking to CoffeeCream and not ConquerClub.

I was, but even assuming that jones realized that, his statement makes sense, or am I oversimplifying things?

MeDeFe wrote:

DAZMCFC wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:

MeDeFe wrote:Well, CC, everyone does. Of course that's somewhat oversimplified, but I think it gets the point across.

How can you say that? not everyone in CC does that. Huh, you'll be using irony and other unfair clever things like that next.

i think he was talking to CoffeeCream and not ConquerClub.

I was, but even assuming that jones realized that his statement makes sense, or am I oversimplifying things?

Could you make it a bit simpler please?

jonesthecurl wrote:
Could you make it a bit simpler please?

Indeed. I don't think it gets the point across entirely.

jonesthecurl wrote:Could you make it a bit simpler please?

Done.

Whaa...?

CoffeeCream wrote:Of course it is irresponsible to say something like that. There were many factors involved in the founding of America. Different people groups from Europe had different kinds of relationships with native indian tribes. To generalize and say that we just wanted to live wherever we wanted is not correct. I do believe that there were gross atrocities committed against the indians but we also have made attempts to make up for them.

But...I didn't say anything about killing indians. I was pointing out that the pilgrims, even though it was understandable that they fleed, did actually decide they had every right to live wherever they wanted to. And that place turned out to be America.

It's not like they asked asylum there and would've left if the indians said they should leave. Plenty of room anyway so why would they? But the pilgrims weren't the only group though, or even the biggest one.

It was simply me telling bradley that saying "people don't have a right to life wherever they desire" in reference to immigrants is being extremely ignorant. I am not blaming you guys for it, I am just saying that it's a silly claim to make as a huge portion of the world has been doing that exact same thing all over history.

Snorri1234 wrote:But...I didn't say anything about killing indians. I was pointing out that the pilgrims, even though it was understandable that they fleed, did actually decide they had every right to live wherever they wanted to. And that place turned out to be America.

Let's see some quotes from the Pilgrims where they claimed that they believed they had the right to live wherever they wanted to. If you can't provide any then your statement is bullshit

Snorri1234 wrote:It was simply me telling bradley that saying "people don't have a right to life wherever they desire" in reference to immigrants is being extremely ignorant. I am not blaming you guys for it, I am just saying that it's a silly claim to make as a huge portion of the world has been doing that exact same thing all over history.

Once again, when you actually force a liberal to examine the ridiculousness of his or her statement, they change the terms by saying "what I was really saying was......" or "that was out of context". Most people who live in the world of reality know different.

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:But...I didn't say anything about killing indians. I was pointing out that the pilgrims, even though it was understandable that they fleed, did actually decide they had every right to live wherever they wanted to. And that place turned out to be America.

Let's see some quotes from the Pilgrims where they claimed that they believed they had the right to live wherever they wanted to. If you can't provide any then your statement is bullshit

They decided to live somewhere they wanted without any asking about asylum or whatever. This meant that they believed they had the right to live there. They were pretty peacefull about it, but later immigrants really didn't give a fcuk about the "indians" living there, which is pretty much a text-book example of them thinking they have the right to live there.
I don't need any quotes from them, as their actions speak for themselves.

If your whole point is that "wherever" is oversimplified as the Pilgrims didn't think they had the right to live in Wales or Norway or some such nonsense, then I must point out that maybe immigrants also don't believe they can live wherever they want, but just in the USA.

Snorri1234 wrote:It was simply me telling bradley that saying "people don't have a right to life wherever they desire" in reference to immigrants is being extremely ignorant. I am not blaming you guys for it, I am just saying that it's a silly claim to make as a huge portion of the world has been doing that exact same thing all over history.

Once again, when you actually force a liberal to examine the ridiculousness of his or her statement, they change the terms by saying "what I was really saying was......" or "that was out of context". Most people who live in the world of reality know different.

Except that it was out of context. You blatantly ignored the discussion there instead you said some bullshit about how I was simplifying things, which consequently was also the thing you were doing. You keep ignoring that this was about (mexican) immigrants who didn't have the right to life in the US just because they desired it, which is exactly what the earlier european immigrants thought.

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

You've gone from "descended from" to "are" - and your whole attack on Snorri here is wraught with logical flaws, that's just the first one I see.

The1exile wrote:

bradleybadly wrote:

Snorri1234 wrote:one of these days you'll have to face the fact almost everyone in your country is a descendent from a bunch of people who thought they had a right to live wherever they desire.

Yes, it's true folks. We Americans are just a bunch of people who thought we had a right to live wherever we desire. Here's how the liberals are educated to view us in their educational institutions. Is it true or just another example of liberal crap?

You've gone from "descended from" to "are" - and your whole attack on Snorri here is wraught with logical flaws, that's just the first one I see.

Well if I pointed out logical flaws in bradley's post all the time I'd never get anything done.