Conquer Club

Dropping that bomb on Hiroshima. One day now, one day.....


My runner ups: Electing Bush president. Starting the Iraq war. Bombing Pearl Harbor (for the Japanese at least).

demon7896 wrote:Dropping that bomb on Hiroshima. One day now, one day.....


My runner ups: Electing Bush president. Starting the Iraq war. Bombing Pearl Harbor (for the Japanese at least).

Bush, Bush, and American Empire

making me.

... Yes. BAD! BAD AMERICA! We should all be put to death!! BAD! BAD!

...

i'd say women's suffrage outranks the atom bomb

Oh please, there's no such thing as the biggest mistake in human history. Sure, mistakes have been made and we feel the effects of them now, but in the future things will even out and a new balance of power will emerge and for a while all will be good and then we'll go through this whole cycle again: balance of power, something happens to upset balance, superpower emerges, superpower diminishes, balance of power is restored.

Looking back, I don't think I'd change anything in history, ever.

Hmm - coming down from the trees?
-coming out of the water?
- the internal combustion engine?
-TV?

Biggest mistake in human history

Industrial Civilisation

the biggest mistake in human history:

challenging Chuck Norris to a fight.

The Peace of Paris, 1783.

Digital watches. People still think they're a pretty neat idea.


They are wrong.

bbqpenguin wrote:i'd say women's suffrage outranks the atom bomb

At last, some truth on the forums

Hologram wrote:Oh please, there's no such thing as the biggest mistake in human history. Sure, mistakes have been made and we feel the effects of them now, but in the future things will even out and a new balance of power will emerge and for a while all will be good and then we'll go through this whole cycle again: balance of power, something happens to upset balance, superpower emerges, superpower diminishes, balance of power is restored.

Looking back, I don't think I'd change anything in history, ever.

Then you are a ...hmm, its not flame wars, so i guess you are just a WIBBLE.
Auschwitz? Pol Pot? The battle of the Somme? Slavery?

These were all necessary for the balance of power, mmm?
Give me strength.

the biggest mistake was conceiving the guy who made this topic

I'm with those who say there is no one such thing.

In recent memory, I would have to say supporting Hitler.

As for Hiroshima, etc. They WERE tragedies, no mistake. But, I quote an interview I heard from one of the original creators.

"The bomb was dropped, not because they wanted to kill Japanese, but to save American lives." We can say in retrospect that Japan was already defeated, etc. However, at the time, the country was facing Kamakazi, other horrors. Did many innocent folks die from the bomb? Yes, but, we cannot either forget that many more would have died on BOTH sides had the war continued.

ALSO, ask anyone from China, or most of Asia, about how peaceful the intentions of the Japanese were at that time, how many innnocent lives the JAPANESE took in their conquest.

We cannot look back without remembering that things were VERY different back then. Japan of today is not the Japan of yesterday. (nor, for that matter, are we)

PLAYER57832 wrote:I'm with those who say there is no one such thing.

In recent memory, I would have to say supporting Hitler.

As for Hiroshima, etc. They WERE tragedies, no mistake. But, I quote an interview I heard from one of the original creators.

"The bomb was dropped, not because they wanted to kill Japanese, but to save American lives." We can say in retrospect that Japan was already defeated, etc. However, at the time, the country was facing Kamakazi, other horrors. Did many innocent folks die from the bomb? Yes, but, we cannot either forget that many more would have died on BOTH sides had the war continued.

ALSO, ask anyone from China, or most of Asia, about how peaceful the intentions of the Japanese were at that time, how many innnocent lives the JAPANESE took in their conquest.

We cannot look back without remembering that things were VERY different back then. Japan of today is not the Japan of yesterday. (nor, for that matter, are we)

Just as a side note -- not many people realize that almost every Japanese city was already obliterated by fire-bombing. Why do you think they chose such obscure cities instead of Tokyo or Osaka or Yokohama? Over 50%, and very often over 75%, of almost every Japanese city had been annihilated already.

Balsiefen wrote:Digital watches. People still think they're a pretty neat idea.

Nurse! There's a spillage of "Douglas Adams Syndrome" in aisle 4! Bring the towels, stat!

InkL0sed wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:I'm with those who say there is no one such thing.In recent memory, I would have to say supporting Hitler.As for Hiroshima, etc.   They WERE tragedies, no mistake.  But, I quote an interview I heard from one of the original creators."The bomb was dropped, not because they wanted to kill Japanese, but to save American lives."   We can say in retrospect that Japan was already defeated, etc.  However, at the time, the country was facing Kamakazi, other horrors.  Did many innocent folks die from the bomb?  Yes, but, we cannot either forget that many more would have died on BOTH sides had the war continued.ALSO, ask anyone from China, or most of Asia, about how peaceful the intentions of the Japanese were at that time, how many innnocent lives the JAPANESE took in their conquest.   We cannot look back without remembering that things were VERY different back then.  Japan of today is not the Japan of yesterday.  (nor, for that matter, are we)

Just as a side note -- not many people realize that almost every Japanese city was already obliterated by fire-bombing. Why do you think they chose such obscure cities instead of Tokyo or Osaka or Yokohama? Over 50%, and very often over 75%, of almost every Japanese city had been annihilated already.

I don't dispute that.   My point is that it is easy to look back and see such things.   At the time, the perspective was quite different.  Also, many still argue, even today, that Japan still represented a threat, that they had vowed to fight to the very last person.     Many today, talking about the bomb find it easy to condemn the US, but conveniently "forget" the context.  They forget just how truly aggressive Japan actually was.  They forget that the world could easily have looked very different today.  

I don't know if things would have turned out better or worse without dropping of the bomb.  I DO  know that while we can change our perceptions of history (and often should), we cannot change the actual events.   

Winston Churchill said it best " he who forgets history is doomed to repeat it". The same could be said for those who attempt to rewrite it, who attempt to put our current mores on the folk of the past. LEARNING history means learning not just events, but the context.

If we forget that the Germans were, prior to Hitler, a civilized people with knowledge of science and culture, and insist on framing them solely as this horrible, racist and totalitarian people unlike ourselves, then we ignore will signs that we might possibly be following similar tracks.

THAT is why history is so very important, why TRUTH, unbiased, unvarnished truth, is so important.

I do not say that the bomb was a wonderful thing by any means. I say only that to lable it "the worst mistake of humanity" while ignoring the deeds of Japan (or Germany, for that matter), is a complete misreading of events of the time. I say that such statements do not reflect a true reading of history. It also is to forget just how close the Germans were to creating THEIR own bomb. 

Yeah, I'm with ya. The sad truth of it is that the Japs were fighting to the last man- dropping the bomb saved loads of Allied lives.
I admit I'm bias - my Grandad was setting sail for the Pacific when they dropped it. I doubt i would be here now if Truman hadnt done his thing.

Hmm. Perhaps Truman DID blunder

I'm not coming down with "atom bomb" as worst mistake, but to say that it's use seemed justified at the time does not mean it wasn't a mistake - surely that's what a mistake is.

"It seemed like a good idea at the time".

First time I got married - seemed like a perfectly reasonable idea. Worst mistake I ever made. But it was only in hindsight I could tell that.

PLAYER57832 wrote:

InkL0sed wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:I'm with those who say there is no one such thing.In recent memory, I would have to say supporting Hitler.As for Hiroshima, etc. They WERE tragedies, no mistake. But, I quote an interview I heard from one of the original creators."The bomb was dropped, not because they wanted to kill Japanese, but to save American lives." We can say in retrospect that Japan was already defeated, etc. However, at the time, the country was facing Kamakazi, other horrors. Did many innocent folks die from the bomb? Yes, but, we cannot either forget that many more would have died on BOTH sides had the war continued.ALSO, ask anyone from China, or most of Asia, about how peaceful the intentions of the Japanese were at that time, how many innnocent lives the JAPANESE took in their conquest. We cannot look back without remembering that things were VERY different back then. Japan of today is not the Japan of yesterday. (nor, for that matter, are we)

Just as a side note -- not many people realize that almost every Japanese city was already obliterated by fire-bombing. Why do you think they chose such obscure cities instead of Tokyo or Osaka or Yokohama? Over 50%, and very often over 75%, of almost every Japanese city had been annihilated already.

I don't dispute that. My point is that it is easy to look back and see such things. At the time, the perspective was quite different. Also, many still argue, even today, that Japan still represented a threat, that they had vowed to fight to the very last person. Many today, talking about the bomb find it easy to condemn the US, but conveniently "forget" the context. They forget just how truly aggressive Japan actually was. They forget that the world could easily have looked very different today.

I don't know if things would have turned out better or worse without dropping of the bomb. I DO know that while we can change our perceptions of history (and often should), we cannot change the actual events.

Winston Churchill said it best " he who forgets history is doomed to repeat it". The same could be said for those who attempt to rewrite it, who attempt to put our current mores on the folk of the past. LEARNING history means learning not just events, but the context.

If we forget that the Germans were, prior to Hitler, a civilized people with knowledge of science and culture, and insist on framing them solely as this horrible, racist and totalitarian people unlike ourselves, then we ignore will signs that we might possibly be following similar tracks.

THAT is why history is so very important, why TRUTH, unbiased, unvarnished truth, is so important.

I do not say that the bomb was a wonderful thing by any means. I say only that to lable it "the worst mistake of humanity" while ignoring the deeds of Japan (or Germany, for that matter), is a complete misreading of events of the time. I say that such statements do not reflect a true reading of history. It also is to forget just how close the Germans were to creating THEIR own bomb.

Whoa, chill. I'm not disagreeing with you (I don't know if I agree either -- the nuking of Japan is something of which I can't seem to find an opinion).

What the opposite side would mention here, however, is this: Japan was ready to surrender; but we were unwilling to let them keep their emperor -- THAT is why we saw fit to nuke the hell out of them. Which leads many to believe we were just intimidating Russia (though this could just be retrospective -- foreseeing the Cold War and whatnot), and wanting to end the war before they invaded Japan.

And then you could retort that Japan has done very well because of our help after the Cold War, which it probably would not have done had it been split like Germany had.

As for myself, I just don't know. I'm a pacifist, so I don't quite know what to make of decisions made during times of war.

You are just factually wrong. Still, no worries, we're only talking about history
The Japanese WERE NOT ready to surrender. They were fighting to the last man.
Go and read a decent book (not some gibberish some stoned 17 year old has cooked up on Wankipedia). Nial Ferguson's "The War of the World" is a good starting point.
Please desist from stating lies, it really GETS ON MY FUCKING WICK.

InkL0sed wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:

InkL0sed wrote:

PLAYER57832 wrote:I'm with those who say there is no one such thing.In recent memory, I would have to say supporting Hitler.As for Hiroshima, etc. They WERE tragedies, no mistake. But, I quote an interview I heard from one of the original creators."The bomb was dropped, not because they wanted to kill Japanese, but to save American lives." We can say in retrospect that Japan was already defeated, etc. However, at the time, the country was facing Kamakazi, other horrors. Did many innocent folks die from the bomb? Yes, but, we cannot either forget that many more would have died on BOTH sides had the war continued.ALSO, ask anyone from China, or most of Asia, about how peaceful the intentions of the Japanese were at that time, how many innnocent lives the JAPANESE took in their conquest. We cannot look back without remembering that things were VERY different back then. Japan of today is not the Japan of yesterday. (nor, for that matter, are we)

Just as a side note -- not many people realize that almost every Japanese city was already obliterated by fire-bombing. Why do you think they chose such obscure cities instead of Tokyo or Osaka or Yokohama? Over 50%, and very often over 75%, of almost every Japanese city had been annihilated already.

I don't dispute that. My point is that it is easy to look back and see such things. At the time, the perspective was quite different. Also, many still argue, even today, that Japan still represented a threat, that they had vowed to fight to the very last person. Many today, talking about the bomb find it easy to condemn the US, but conveniently "forget" the context. They forget just how truly aggressive Japan actually was. They forget that the world could easily have looked very different today.

I don't know if things would have turned out better or worse without dropping of the bomb. I DO know that while we can change our perceptions of history (and often should), we cannot change the actual events.

Winston Churchill said it best " he who forgets history is doomed to repeat it". The same could be said for those who attempt to rewrite it, who attempt to put our current mores on the folk of the past. LEARNING history means learning not just events, but the context.

If we forget that the Germans were, prior to Hitler, a civilized people with knowledge of science and culture, and insist on framing them solely as this horrible, racist and totalitarian people unlike ourselves, then we ignore will signs that we might possibly be following similar tracks.

THAT is why history is so very important, why TRUTH, unbiased, unvarnished truth, is so important.

I do not say that the bomb was a wonderful thing by any means. I say only that to lable it "the worst mistake of humanity" while ignoring the deeds of Japan (or Germany, for that matter), is a complete misreading of events of the time. I say that such statements do not reflect a true reading of history. It also is to forget just how close the Germans were to creating THEIR own bomb.

Whoa, chill. I'm not disagreeing with you (I don't know if I agree either -- the nuking of Japan is something of which I can't seem to find an opinion).

What the opposite side would mention here, however, is this: Japan was ready to surrender; but we were unwilling to let them keep their emperor -- THAT is why we saw fit to nuke the hell out of them. Which leads many to believe we were just intimidating Russia (though this could just be retrospective -- foreseeing the Cold War and whatnot), and wanting to end the war before they invaded Japan.

And then you could retort that Japan has done very well because of our help after the Cold War, which it probably would not have done had it been split like Germany had.

As for myself, I just don't know. I'm a pacifist, so I don't quite know what to make of decisions made during times of war.

Perhaps. I have never ever heard that Japan was completely ready to surrender, and I took APUSH. What I heard was that many (whether "many" constitutes a majority or simply a handful, I cannot say) high-ups in the Japanese Emperial government were indeed vying for a surrender on thier own terms, but had trouble getting Hirohito to even concede to a surrender, let alone one in which he would give up power in a country that thought him its god. What's more, I think that as a pacifist myself (YAY DIPLOMACY!!!) I think that the dropping of the bomb was one of the best possible options. I personally would have given the Japs the benefit of seeing a mushroom cloud develop on their coastline befor eone over their soil, but I think that the bombs saved American AND Japanese lives. Remember what the Japanese had done to POWs and the way that they pillaged China; they expected similar responses from us. I cant say where, but I HEARD THAT there was even propaganda telling the people of Japan to kill themselves and their families with honor instead of watching their families be beaten and raped by American soldiers. Aa for the thing with russia, we were not trying to intimidate them. We wanted them to never set foot in Japan at all. After seeing what Stalin had done to Eastern Europe, I think Truman was more than willing to risk a few lives for the future of Japanese sovergnity.

Here is my TOP TEN LIST OF MAN-MADE WORLD TRAGEDIES (although I likely have skipped over some biggies by accident, sorry)

10-Israeli-Palestinian Conflict in its entirety. This is beyond wrong, it is rediculous.

9-The emergence of violent terrorism. No mi gusta.

8-Mongol Horde. I dont know much about it, but I hear they did some sick stuff, so I think I'll put it in here.

7-Genocide in Darfur (Sudan). Why not something worse? Cause it's happening right now. As I type this. Blows your mind, huh?

6- Imperial Japan around WWII. It was pretty bad. Rape of Nanking and all that cool stuff.

5- Slavery throughout Human history. I just have problems with it, and nothing makes me sadder than to see liberties taken away like that, especially the brutal way slaves were treated in Brazil, the Carribbean, and the future United States. Also insert any form of discrimination here.

4- Appeasement of Hitler. He did great things for Germany, and I can see why he was allowed to come to power. But then he went beserk on the population. And then his neighbors. And the west stood by and watched.

3- Lenin and Trotsky letting Stalin come to power. Satlin did some great things for russia. He also killed millions in ethnic and political cleansings the likes of which have never been seen before or since. It was like the Holocaust, but minus the scientific experimentation and plus a whole lot of time. He had a nice moustache, though.

2- Mao Zedong's ruling over China. He had some good ups, sure. But the famine brought about by his policies killed millions upon millions of people and although it was not as malicious as teh previous two, it killed significantly more. His great leap forward tripped and fell backward on a rusty nail.

1- The systematic genocide of Native americans by white colonists in the new world, particularily in America. Yes, the holocaust was worse as was Stalin's ethnic cleansing, and indeed things seem to be turning out all right. But comparing what the tribes should have to what they do have, nothing has really had a greater impact on history I think than the mercantilist colonisation of the New World.

Now THERE are some mistakes for ya!

suggs wrote:You are just factually wrong. Still, no worries, we're only talking about history
The Japanese WERE NOT ready to surrender. They were fighting to the last man.
Go and read a decent book (not some gibberish some stoned 17 year old has cooked up on Wankipedia). Nial Ferguson's "The War of the World" is a good starting point.
Please desist from stating lies, it really GETS ON MY FUCKING WICK.

Again, chill. Like you said in that other thread, you need to get laid.

I'm not relying on Wikipedia, rather on my memory from the AP US history course I'm taking right now, and I remember that the Japanese were beginning to negotiate surrender, but not the unconditional one we wanted.

I'll go look it up in my textbook if you insist.