Conquer Club

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New poll shows rising Palestinian support for violence – report
March 23, 2008, 4:55 PM (GMT+02:00)

Palestinian pollster Khalil Shikaki told the New York Times in Ramallah that 84 percent of the Palestinians polled supported the March 6 attack on the Mercaz Harav yeshiva in which 8 young students were killed,.

He reported 64 percent supported the Hamas’ missile offensive against Israeli towns and 75 percent though the negotiations between Ehud Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas were without benefit and should be terminated. Shikaki said he was shocked by the survey taken last week because it showed greater Palestinian support for violence than any other he had conducted in the past 15 years.

No comments? Whether or not you side with Israel I would hope that the murder of non combatants at a university would be denounced. Hamas saying this is allright puts them on par with the Columbine and Virginia Tech killers.

We cannot comment on this as it's still under investigation.

In the meanwhile we got American Gladiators on tv for you.

While there has been fighting by both sides in the Israeli Palestinian conflict there is a fundamental difference in the way the two sides conduct battle.

The Israeli's target specific military targets, combatants (the guys who fire rockets from Gaza at Israeli civillians every day), weapons factories etc. Palestinian civillians are sometimes caught in the crossfire but you NEVER hear about a busload of Palestinian children blown up by a suicide bomber.

Palestinians target everyone and everything, it makes no difference whether they kill a 2 year old and his mother or a 20 year old soldier with a gun. They are more comparable to vandals than soldiers in that theyre goal is not to strike Israeli military instilations but rather to cause pain and suffering in any way that they can.

If the Israelis fought like the Palestinians there would be no more Palestinians. They would have been killed in a mass genocide by now. The disproportional civillian deaths on the Palestinian side could be largely avoided if groups like Hamas stopped using women and children as human shields.

While certainly i think most of us here do not condone the methods that the palestinians who are fighting against israel use, i think its important to recognize theres a some elements which lend fighting to occuring the way it does. As max weber said, the state has the monopoly on the legitamate use of force. When you have a state theres a certain way things can and should be done, and you can argue about how well israel does in living up to the standards it should. However, without a state, there is no single group which defines how fighting is supposed to occur. As a result theres no one to punish the tactics used by those who employ terrorist methods.

got tonkaed wrote:While certainly i think most of us here do not condone the methods that the palestinians who are fighting against israel use, i think its important to recognize theres a some elements which lend fighting to occuring the way it does. As max weber said, the state has the monopoly on the legitamate use of force. When you have a state theres a certain way things can and should be done, and you can argue about how well israel does in living up to the standards it should. However, without a state, there is no single group which defines how fighting is supposed to occur. As a result theres no one to punish the tactics used by those who employ terrorist methods.

The idea that the Palestinians do not have a state is a myth. They have a President (Mahmoud Abbas), they have a government (Hamas), and they have millions of dollars in aid from Iran which they use to kill Israelis and themselves as evidenced by the civil war they recently had in the Gaza Strip.

The great irony is that if they stopped targetting civillians and war mongering against Israel they would have their state, probably already. Look at the history between Egypt and Israel. They were once bitter rivals but now they are civil. Israel gave them back the Sinai which contained oil resources so it is completely irrational to place the blame on Israel in these conflicts.

i dont call being fenced in by a wall and a sea blockade being a free state.
44 medicines have ran this year in palestine

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Aidan Kerr wrote:i dont call being fenced in by a wall and a sea blockade being a free state.
44 medicines have ran this year in palestine

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=6125356369

They do not have a free state. They have a terrorist state which launches rockets from their borders at anything in Israel that they can hit everyday. They have been imprisoned for their crimes against humanity.

what you fence in a nation of 3,760,000 because there government fucked up.

Aidan Kerr wrote:what you fence in a nation of 3,760,000 because there government fucked up.

If they had one to begin with, there wouldn't be a problem for the Israelis to feel the fence were necessary. So, either the Palastinian government is ineffective or it is corrupt and sponcering the terrorists; take your pick of the two, that's all you get.

Aidan Kerr wrote:what you fence in a nation of 3,760,000 because there government fucked up.

Absolutely...

Should the Allied nations not have fought against the Nazis because they were afraid that Germans might be harmed? The answer to this should be obvious...

Palestinians elected Hamas in democratic fashion with full knowledge of their terrorist activities. People in a democracy are responsible for the actions of their elected leaders.

GabonX wrote:

got tonkaed wrote:While certainly i think most of us here do not condone the methods that the palestinians who are fighting against israel use, i think its important to recognize theres a some elements which lend fighting to occuring the way it does. As max weber said, the state has the monopoly on the legitamate use of force. When you have a state theres a certain way things can and should be done, and you can argue about how well israel does in living up to the standards it should. However, without a state, there is no single group which defines how fighting is supposed to occur. As a result theres no one to punish the tactics used by those who employ terrorist methods.

The idea that the Palestinians do not have a state is a myth. They have a President (Mahmoud Abbas), they have a government (Hamas), and they have millions of dollars in aid from Iran which they use to kill Israelis and themselves as evidenced by the civil war they recently had in the Gaza Strip.

The great irony is that if they stopped targetting civillians and war mongering against Israel they would have their state, probably already. Look at the history between Egypt and Israel. They were once bitter rivals but now they are civil. Israel gave them back the Sinai which contained oil resources so it is completely irrational to place the blame on Israel in these conflicts.

Where exactly is this current state? While people do recognize the palestinian state and the elements of it, including the president and the gov...you arent really talking about a state if there are still proposals going on for the creation of it.

Your basically tailoring everything around the issue to your side of the debate.

GabonX wrote:

Aidan Kerr wrote:what you fence in a nation of 3,760,000 because there government fucked up.

Absolutely...

Should the Allied nations not have fought against the Nazis because they were afraid that Germans might be harmed? The answer to this should be obvious...

Palestinians elected Hamas in democratic fashion with full knowledge of their terrorist activities. People in a democracy are responsible for the actions of their elected leaders.

Here here. If they can't reign in their people, and the people can't be bothered to elect proper officials, they fall under the need for sanction on their actions.

Palestinian's actions seem as terrorism to you, but in their point of view they are fighting for their country. They support Hamas because it has provided things like schools and other public services. I hate violence but since Israel is in war it can't expect not to have any civilian casualties at all while Palestinian civilians are killed. After all, the British may have regarded the American rebels as some kind of terrorists.

got tonkaed wrote:

GabonX wrote:

got tonkaed wrote:While certainly i think most of us here do not condone the methods that the palestinians who are fighting against israel use, i think its important to recognize theres a some elements which lend fighting to occuring the way it does. As max weber said, the state has the monopoly on the legitamate use of force. When you have a state theres a certain way things can and should be done, and you can argue about how well israel does in living up to the standards it should. However, without a state, there is no single group which defines how fighting is supposed to occur. As a result theres no one to punish the tactics used by those who employ terrorist methods.

The idea that the Palestinians do not have a state is a myth. They have a President (Mahmoud Abbas), they have a government (Hamas), and they have millions of dollars in aid from Iran which they use to kill Israelis and themselves as evidenced by the civil war they recently had in the Gaza Strip.

The great irony is that if they stopped targetting civillians and war mongering against Israel they would have their state, probably already. Look at the history between Egypt and Israel. They were once bitter rivals but now they are civil. Israel gave them back the Sinai which contained oil resources so it is completely irrational to place the blame on Israel in these conflicts.

Where exactly is this current state? While people do recognize the palestinian state and the elements of it, including the president and the gov...you arent really talking about a state if there are still proposals going on for the creation of it.

Your basically tailoring everything around the issue to your side of the debate.

The debate is much more one sided than many people will accept. Polling shows that 84% of Palestinians support terrorism. The Palestinians could have had their state by now but they continue to murder innocent people.

Their current state is divided in two, by their own action. Hamas violently ejected rival democraticaly elected Palestinians from Gaza. The cold hard reality of the issue is that many Palestinians, Arabs, and even Muslims in general DO NOT WANT PEACE, and these people make up the majority in Palestine.

Ntetos wrote:I hate violence but since Israel is in war it can't expect not to have any civilian casualties at all while Palestinian civilians are killed.

The difference is that the Palestinians are sending out suicide bombers with the specific intent to kill civilians. Israel's military is not specifically targeting civilians. It's unfortunate that it happens but that is not the objective of Israel's military.

GabonX wrote: The cold hard reality of the issue is that many Palestinians, Arabs, and even Muslims in general DO NOT WANT PEACE, and these people make up the majority in Palestine.

When one reads the Koran, one can see the obvious reason why.

Jenos Ridan wrote:

GabonX wrote: The cold hard reality of the issue is that many Palestinians, Arabs, and even Muslims in general DO NOT WANT PEACE, and these people make up the majority in Palestine.

When one reads the Koran, one can see the obvious reason why.

The problem is that the majority of people who read the Koran are Muslims. Westerners seem content to believe the blind assumption that Islam is a religion of Peace. Mohammad himself led a group of his converts to kill everyone in the Arabian peninsula who would not convert to Islam. This is a matter of historical fact.

We see that Islamic regions are plauged by war today and that their beginning was not much better. Their is plenty of bloodshed in between as well. Based on this can we really claim that Islam is a religion of peace?

Judaism isn't a religion of peace and neither is Christianity.

Ntetos wrote:Judaism isn't a religion of peace and neither is Christianity.

You could make that argument. Atrocities have been commited by both groups. The difference between these two groups and Islam is that neither of them still kills people just for the sake of killing people today.

Perhaps we should consider the possibility that religions, like people, mature over time. Islam may be an underdeveloped faith at this time.

Ntetos wrote: After all, the British may have regarded the American rebels as some kind of terrorists.

lol i hear this apologetic comment towards terrorism all the time, as if terrorism is dependant on one's point of view and the course of history books. No, American rebels never killed innocent civilians to create their independent state. There is a clear definition of terrorism. the american rebels were not terrorists.


Personally, I think that the whole thing is a vicious cycle. Palestinians get frustrated at their lack of a state, resort to violence, but by resorting to violence, israel retaliates and the international community loses faith in the palestinians' goal for a peaceful solution, and so on and so forth.

Palestinians should not support terrorism. They should separate from radicalism. They should stop acting like children with guns and start taking some responsibility in the international stage. The statistic of 84% supporting terrorism makes me believe that complete peace during the next 2 decades is almost unrealistic.

GabonX wrote:

Aidan Kerr wrote:i dont call being fenced in by a wall and a sea blockade being a free state.
44 medicines have ran this year in palestine

http://www.bebo.com/Profile.jsp?MemberId=6125356369

They do not have a free state. They have a terrorist state which launches rockets from their borders at anything in Israel that they can hit everyday. They have been imprisoned for their crimes against humanity.

Of course! It's so clear in black and white when you put it like that. Israel = heroic martyrs and Palestine = terrorist scum.
I can't believe I didn't think of it in these terms before. Thanks for straightening that out.

d.gishman wrote:

Ntetos wrote: After all, the British may have regarded the American rebels as some kind of terrorists.

No, American rebels never killed innocent civilians to create their independent state.

I think you should lay away the crack-pipe.

Jenos Ridan wrote:

GabonX wrote: The cold hard reality of the issue is that many Palestinians, Arabs, and even Muslims in general DO NOT WANT PEACE, and these people make up the majority in Palestine.

When one reads the Koran, one can see the obvious reason why.

WHY HELLO ThAR OLD TOPIC!