Serious Debating Business (Firearms Control, Religion, Etc)

[Dancing Mustard]

It was a saturday morning, and Dancing Mustard awoke from his bed feeling a curious sense of joy. He rose, showered and scrubbed his teeth, pausing only to give himself a cheeky wink in the bathroom mirror.
After his breakfast (from which he was extra careful to dust the rat droppings before consuming) he flipped open his laptop, sat down on his bed, and began to peruse the CC forums for intelligent viewpoints on topical matters. He flipped through many topics most of them started by intelligent, rational human beings with the propensity to espouse sensible viewpoints and to make valid contributions to the subject at hand, and he saw that these were good. However many of the threads were hijacked by evil 'trolls', who seemed to do nothing but insult other posters and spew bullshit backed by pseudo-intellectual jargon.
"Alas" said Dancing Mustard "This kind of fucking shite is ruining many good topics here on CC, and I'm sick of having to wade through all of this wank to get to the sensible people talking."
But what could he do? He was but one man, and he was not blessed with the power of murdering people via the internet.
"I have it!" he shouted "I could just start a 'clan' (or a 'discussion group' if you will) that only admits sensible people with functioning brains, and which excludes retarded trolls, then those sensible people could sucessfully discuss all of the contentious topics that usually get hijacked by retarded twats".


Thus I have had a vision. What do you think? Instead of trying to talk sense to stupid-people, why not just relocate the discussion so away from them until they grow up?

[suggs]

Its a bloody good idea. I now wish my intellectual age was more than 5.
The only possibel problem I could see is the danger of everyone agreeing with each other. So (from my point of view) it would be cool to get the likes of LUns101 and...er, other cool right wing people.

I'll have the rat droppings if you're going to waste them.

Up the Mustard!

[MeDeFe]

Of course there'll have to be cool right-wing people and don't forget the Christian leftists.

Where can one sign up for joining?

[daddy1gringo]

I'd like to give it a try, assuming that you chaps consider me reasonable. (Nobody but other JF's has mentioned me on the love-fest thread )

[the_fatty]

I would join, if you want me.

[MeDeFe]

I'd like to give it a try, assuming that you chaps consider me reasonable. (Nobody but other JF's has mentioned me on the love-fest thread )

Well, I haven't posted there yet, and you abandoned the discussion about absolute truth, relativism and universals. Even though I granted you that the sort of statements you described exist, though I did not at all agree with your terminology of calling them "absolute".

[the_fatty]

lol, DM, i now that i have looked through more of the stuf that is posted in here, i really hope you let me join. Some to these topics are just stupid:

Gay Penguins!
Old People!
i lost my virginity

and many more...

[CrazyAnglican]

How about a games subgroup on that one, where you actually debate things out and come to a consensus on who has the best points (whether you agree with them or not)?

I think the weakness in some of our threads is that they never end. There should be a place to get in, say what you have to say, and get out. If you are tempted to post your argument from page 47 to answer a challenge on page 92, it gets a little old.

I'd like to join if I qualify as serious (and not merely humorless).

[Guiscard]

I'm not all that sure I want to see debates taken out of such a public forum. It makes it much harder for everyone to get involved, for good or bad. It smacks a little of elitism - and I think that's a bad thing. One of the things I find most useful in debates here at CC is that the idiotic opinions of trolls often spark some of the most interesting discussions, even if it is in an attempt to belittle their meaningless opinions. We shouldn't lose that.

[Colossus]

I agree with ^.

[spurgistan]

I'm not all that sure I want to see debates taken out of such a public forum. It makes it much harder for everyone to get involved, for good or bad. It smacks a little of elitism - and I think that's a bad thing. One of the things I find most useful in debates here at CC is that the idiotic opinions of trolls often spark some of the most interesting discussions, even if it is in an attempt to belittle their meaningless opinions. We shouldn't lose that.

I'm sort of wavering. On one hand, it's possible the people who this group would exclude would be the precise sort of troll who don't really add anything to an argument (Dekloren, to use a recent example, posting his almost dangerously sensible "Liek, conspiracy forum fo teh 1337") Those sort of things only serve to derail whatever sort of marginal production the thread might have had into angrily bashing the troll over the head. And yes - elitism - that would depend on whether we're talking about just keeping the trolls out or actually trying to elevate the discourse, setting up some sort of CC debate club. Not a wholly awful idea, actually.

On the other hand, there's the stuff you said.

[Colossus]

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with establishing a clan for folks who want a more isolated venue in which to carry out our intellectual bickering, but I agree with Guiscard that doing so will limit the discussion in a way that it is not limited now. Though the unfettered access that the IK forum enjoys means we have to put up with intellectual detritus like Deklorean, it also means that new people can easily jump in and offer fresh viewpoints. You won't get that in a clan.

If there were a clan, I'd probably ask to join because I enjoy our little debates, but I'm not convinced that it would lead to better discussion.

If such a group were arranged, who gets to say who's in and who's out?

[Frigidus]

Well, in case all reasonable debate ends up moving to the user group, I have no choice but to join.

[WidowMakers]

I'm not all that sure I want to see debates taken out of such a public forum. It makes it much harder for everyone to get involved, for good or bad. It smacks a little of elitism - and I think that's a bad thing. One of the things I find most useful in debates here at CC is that the idiotic opinions of trolls often spark some of the most interesting discussions, even if it is in an attempt to belittle their meaningless opinions. We shouldn't lose that.

I'm sort of wavering. On one hand, it's possible the people who this group would exclude would be the precise sort of troll who don't really add anything to an argument (Dekloren, to use a recent example, posting his almost dangerously sensible "Liek, conspiracy forum fo teh 1337") Those sort of things only serve to derail whatever sort of marginal production the thread might have had into angrily bashing the troll over the head. And yes - elitism - that would depend on whether we're talking about just keeping the trolls out or actually trying to elevate the discourse, setting up some sort of CC debate club. Not a wholly awful idea, actually.

On the other hand, there's the stuff you said.

As a person who has enjoyed participating in several of these debates I am torn between both options. As described above a clan based debate forum has both advantages and disadvantages.

I have had so much other non CC stuff to do all of my threads have died as far as I know (I really hope to get back to them once I get some time). But as far as I am concerned even though the people involved disagreed about many issues, the conversation was, for the most part, well though out and debated. SO I did not really see to much abuse of the threads I was involved in.

I do have a solution however (I am not sure if it can be implemented) is ask for a separate sub forum called debates. There would be selected moderators for this particular sub forum only. The could manage the post and delete rude and unnecessary posts from spammers. Everyone could see and participate but only as long as they do it with respect to others opinions. Again I guarantee I will not agree with everything someone might say, but I also not be rude and disrespectful to them.

I think that is what we are really trying to achieve, correct?

-A debate sub forum
-moderated by several people who manage threads based on content not on their opinion of that content
-Personal attacks are not allowed
-spamming not allowed
-trolling not allowed
-did I miss anything?

WM

[OnlyAmbrose]

I'm not all that sure I want to see debates taken out of such a public forum. It makes it much harder for everyone to get involved, for good or bad. It smacks a little of elitism - and I think that's a bad thing. One of the things I find most useful in debates here at CC is that the idiotic opinions of trolls often spark some of the most interesting discussions, even if it is in an attempt to belittle their meaningless opinions. We shouldn't lose that.

I'm sort of wavering. On one hand, it's possible the people who this group would exclude would be the precise sort of troll who don't really add anything to an argument (Dekloren, to use a recent example, posting his almost dangerously sensible "Liek, conspiracy forum fo teh 1337") Those sort of things only serve to derail whatever sort of marginal production the thread might have had into angrily bashing the troll over the head. And yes - elitism - that would depend on whether we're talking about just keeping the trolls out or actually trying to elevate the discourse, setting up some sort of CC debate club. Not a wholly awful idea, actually.

On the other hand, there's the stuff you said.

As a person who has enjoyed participating in several of these debates I am torn between both options. As described above a clan based debate forum has both advantages and disadvantages.

I have had so much other non CC stuff to do all of my threads have died as far as I know (I really hope to get back to them once I get some time). But as far as I am concerned even though the people involved disagreed about many issues, the conversation was, for the most part, well though out and debated. SO I did not really see to much abuse of the threads I was involved in.

I do have a solution however (I am not sure if it can be implemented) is ask for a separate sub forum called debates. There would be selected moderators for this particular sub forum only. The could manage the post and delete rude and unnecessary posts from spammers. Everyone could see and participate but only as long as they do it with respect to others opinions. Again I guarantee I will not agree with everything someone might say, but I also not be rude and disrespectful to them.

I think that is what we are really trying to achieve, correct?

-A debate sub forum
-moderated by several people who manage threads based on content not on their opinion of that content
-Personal attacks are not allowed
-spamming not allowed
-trolling not allowed
-did I miss anything?

WM

Great idea. Whereas the clubhouse has traditionally been an anything-goes type of place the "debate forum" would be a bit more heavily moderated as far as spam and trolling goes. Spiffy idea

But I'm definitely in agreement with Guiscard, it's a bad idea to make it a private forum. A separate forum that is subject to moderation, on the other hand, sounds like a great idea.

[Guiscard]

I don't even think I'm in favour of a separate forum with heavier moderation. I really don't think the trolling is too much of an issue for most of the big threads I've been participating in. In fact, when someone does pop up and expose themselves for a class A idiot I, and others, rather enjoy shooting them down. And again, I'll reiterate the point that those posters do often spark interesting debates. The endless Mafia threads were cluttering up the forum, so a separate area for those was a good idea, but I think we should bee debates out in the open rather than hidden away or policed too heavily. Just look at the problems people have with Mods at the moment, and the disagreements in the Foundry (I used to get fairly involved, but got fed up in the end because as hard as people tried to impose order and moderation it didn't work). I say vote NO on clause 23!

[comic boy]

I also like the idea of keeping a sub forum open but moderated to prevent trolls and Arsenal supporters ....Teddy would like to join as well please

[comic boy]

I also like the idea of keeping a sub forum open but moderated to prevent trolls and Arsenal supporters ....Teddy would like to join as well please

[muy_thaiguy]

I'm with Ambrose and WM on this one (Guiscard as well, of course) that making it a private sub-forum would alienate those who pop in and add their 2 cents to the conversation, carry it on, but otherwise wouldn't post. Not to mention few people actually go to the usergroups icon to see what groups there are (thoroughly at least). So, another subforum for private debates would probably be best in the circumstances. With heavy moderation to make sure spammers, trolls, and other such people's posts would be deleted.

[Gregrios]

It was a saturday morning, and Dancing Mustard awoke from his bed feeling a curious sense of joy. He rose, showered and scrubbed his teeth, pausing only to give himself a cheeky wink in the bathroom mirror.
After his breakfast (from which he was extra careful to dust the rat droppings before consuming) he flipped open his laptop, sat down on his bed, and began to peruse the CC forums for intelligent viewpoints on topical matters. He flipped through many topics most of them started by intelligent, rational human beings with the propensity to espouse sensible viewpoints and to make valid contributions to the subject at hand, and he saw that these were good. However many of the threads were hijacked by evil 'trolls', who seemed to do nothing but insult other posters and spew bullshit backed by pseudo-intellectual jargon.
"Alas" said Dancing Mustard "This kind of fucking shite is ruining many good topics here on CC, and I'm sick of having to wade through all of this wank to get to the sensible people talking."
But what could he do? He was but one man, and he was not blessed with the power of murdering people via the internet.
"I have it!" he shouted "I could just start a 'clan' (or a 'discussion group' if you will) that only admits sensible people with functioning brains, and which excludes retarded trolls, then those sensible people could sucessfully discuss all of the contentious topics that usually get hijacked by retarded twats".


Thus I have had a vision. What do you think? Instead of trying to talk sense to stupid-people, why not just relocate the discussion so away from them until they grow up?

Considering that your a troll yourself. I've got to question your motives.

I think your goal is the complete opposite of what you say it is. As I recall, you've been involved in almost every hijacking that's taken place.

That's my reasonable perspective.

[brooksieb]

I also like the idea of keeping a sub forum open but moderated to prevent trolls and Arsenal supporters ....Teddy would like to join as well please

lil fucker i know u were talking about me u TEAMIST!

[MR. Nate]

I'm certainly against a private forum. I'm a little less opposed to WM's proposal. I guess that I've kind of enjoyed some of the trolling / spamming, as it gives me a a chance to lash out a little. In fact, I tend not to post specifically forth the 2 or 3 people actually rigorously involved the actual debate, but more for the other people that read. So, I don't so much try to talk sense into stupid people as display intelligence in front of them.

So, I guess I'm actually opposed to both.

And, I agree with Gregrios, although I'll try to have an open mind.

[MeDeFe]

It was a saturday morning, and Dancing Mustard awoke from his bed feeling a curious sense of joy. He rose, showered and scrubbed his teeth, pausing only to give himself a cheeky wink in the bathroom mirror.
After his breakfast (from which he was extra careful to dust the rat droppings before consuming) he flipped open his laptop, sat down on his bed, and began to peruse the CC forums for intelligent viewpoints on topical matters. He flipped through many topics most of them started by intelligent, rational human beings with the propensity to espouse sensible viewpoints and to make valid contributions to the subject at hand, and he saw that these were good. However many of the threads were hijacked by evil 'trolls', who seemed to do nothing but insult other posters and spew bullshit backed by pseudo-intellectual jargon.
"Alas" said Dancing Mustard "This kind of fucking shite is ruining many good topics here on CC, and I'm sick of having to wade through all of this wank to get to the sensible people talking."
But what could he do? He was but one man, and he was not blessed with the power of murdering people via the internet.
"I have it!" he shouted "I could just start a 'clan' (or a 'discussion group' if you will) that only admits sensible people with functioning brains, and which excludes retarded trolls, then those sensible people could sucessfully discuss all of the contentious topics that usually get hijacked by retarded twats".


Thus I have had a vision. What do you think? Instead of trying to talk sense to stupid-people, why not just relocate the discussion so away from them until they grow up?

Considering that your a troll yourself. I've got to question your motives.

I think your goal is the complete opposite of what you say it is. As I recall, you've been involved in almost every hijacking that's taken place.

That's my reasonable perspective.

DM has also posted some of the wittiest and best formulated posts I've seen on these boards, so I think you're being a little one-sided.

[Guiscard]

DM has also posted some of the wittiest and best formulated posts I've seen on these boards, so I think you're being a little one-sided.

Hear, hear.

[luns101]

it would be cool to get the likes of LUns101 and...er, other cool right wing people.

I'll have to agree here with you on this point, it would be pretty cool to have me in on those rhetorical battles. Actually my philosophical skills aren't much more impressive than anything uttered by Master Po on Kung Fu.

Right now I'm doing a little tutorial on secular humanism in the JF forum. Perhaps when I'm finished with that I would be able to spend enough time to discuss things in a way that would do justice to a serious format.