Conquer Club

I was just thinking, after reading another Ron Paul rant somewhere about the usage of the world 'liberty'. Now, I tend to think of this word as almost Americanised, as such, because I don't hear it used all that often here in Australia, and I always here it coming from the mouths of US politicians.

Dictionary.com wrote:1. freedom from arbitrary or despotic government or control.
2. freedom from external or foreign rule; independence.
3. freedom from control, interference, obligation, restriction, hampering conditions, etc.; power or right of doing, thinking, speaking, etc., according to choice.

OK, that sounds all well and good. But does the US (or anywhere) actually ever live up to it? Firstly, and this must be said, the 2nd and 3rd definitions pretty much rule out religious worshippers. They can't actually have liberty if they have God ruling over them, telling them how to live and where to worship and the such.

Also, just the very inherent fact that we have to get up each day and go work a shitty ass job because we pretty much have to. Doesn't sound like much liberty to me. Freedom from obligation? (well we have to go to work) restriction? (well I'm pretty sure only Amsterdam will let me smoke weed without cops busting my balls about it) -

My point, is the word liberty, seems to be just a convienient catch phrase or word. I don't think many people can have true liberty, if going by this definition. It's just kind of annoying to see people using the word so often, when it doesn't actually look like it is a realistic target (to achieve liberty for all)

"We must give up liberty to gain freedom"

-Rumsfeld

radiojake wrote:Firstly, and this must be said, the 2nd and 3rd definitions pretty much rule out religious worshippers.

"Liberty" when used in the context which Ron Paul supporters intend means liberty from government. If we're talking about religion, that means the liberty to decide whether to surrender your liberty to a God. Or not. I'm sure you don't disagree that the government should have no say in such a decision.

Even then, religious people are perfectly liberated. Free will. I can sin if I want to. Just as I can choose to be religious if I want to.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Even then, religious people are perfectly liberated. Free will. I can sin if I want to. Just as I can choose to be religious if I want to.

Granted, but you are told if you do sin, that you will end up in Hell. Doesn't sound like a massive choice.

Anyway, the religious spin wasn't what I was really aiming for. Just the fact that 'liberty' from government is total crap if you are talking in terms of voting in a new President. S/he is still gonna have cops busting you when you do something that they don't approve. The only liberty from government would be anarchy or no government, wouldn't it?

... Surprise surprise, I'm finding myself agreeing with Radio here.

... Imho, true, absolute liberty cannot be obtained in the modern age, but we can hope for and work for a government that comes closer to it than others.

... (here is where I tend to get into political rants, so I'll just leave it at that).

...

Let's not get ridiculous with semantics. "liberty" as we hope to see it is the happy medium between liberty from government and liberty from our fellow man.

radiojake wrote:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Even then, religious people are perfectly liberated. Free will. I can sin if I want to. Just as I can choose to be religious if I want to.

Granted, but you are told if you do sin, that you will end up in Hell. Doesn't sound like a massive choice.

You misunderstand
"The wages of sin is death" we all must ultimatly pay this price in the end. The choice is weather or not to be forgiven of the sins after death. Go to Heven or Hell. After your saved, thats it. No obligations, nothing. True freedom. Freedom from the nature of sin. At this point, you will be compelled, but never required, to do the right thing. This is true liberty, liberation from the evil, compulsive nature that every man and woman is born with.

Mr_Adams wrote:

radiojake wrote:

OnlyAmbrose wrote:Even then, religious people are perfectly liberated. Free will. I can sin if I want to. Just as I can choose to be religious if I want to.

Granted, but you are told if you do sin, that you will end up in Hell. Doesn't sound like a massive choice.

You misunderstand
"The wages of sin is death" we all must ultimatly pay this price in the end. The choice is weather or not to be forgiven of the sins after death. Go to Heven or Hell. After your saved, thats it. No obligations, nothing. True freedom. Freedom from the nature of sin. At this point, you will be compelled, but never required, to do the right thing. This is true liberty, liberation from the evil, compulsive nature that every man and woman is born with.

I hate to break it to you but whatever we do we are all gonna die and there isnt an afterlife,better not waste this one

comic boy wrote:
I hate to break it to you but whatever we do we are all gonna die and there isnt an afterlife,better not waste this one

Agreed. But there is enough religious threads already (even though I guess I was the one who first mentioned it in the thread, but was not my main point)

The more radicalJake posts, the more I want to see fascist police-state bobbies smack his dope-smoking hippie arse to the floor, and attack him with batons.

Having said this, a few savage beatings to christians wouldn't go a miss either.

So what you are saying is that the Ron-Paul-ites are taking liberties with the word liberty?

How libertarian.

Liberty is a retarded catchphrase, coined by the US. I'd rather be a rich guy in a dictatorship, then a poor guy in some liberal hippy welfare country.

This is how democracy fails, none of the politicians really deal with anything important (except Ron Paul, but his ideas are still batshit insane) and voters vote based off their preconceived perceptions of the candidates (ie, they think George Bush is some god abiding, all Texan cowboy, but it really turns out he's a coke snorting rich boy).

All democracy guarantees you, is a government that doesn't blatantly screw you over. They still do, they just have to cover it up and be sneaky.

so the American Civil War was just a waste of time, was it?
Tell that to the blacks, you fools.

Norse wrote:The more radicalJake posts, the more I want to see fascist police-state bobbies smack his dope-smoking hippie arse to the floor, and attack him with batons.

Having said this, a few savage beatings to christians wouldn't go a miss either.

radicaljake eh? I like it, makes me think of the ninja turtles. Thanks!

dinobot wrote:Liberty is a retarded catchphrase, coined by the US. I'd rather be a rich guy in a dictatorship, then a poor guy in some liberal hippy welfare country.

This is how democracy fails, none of the politicians really deal with anything important (except Ron Paul, but his ideas are still batshit insane) and voters vote based off their preconceived perceptions of the candidates (ie, they think George Bush is some god abiding, all Texan cowboy, but it really turns out he's a coke snorting rich boy).

All democracy guarantees you, is a government that doesn't blatantly screw you over. They still do, they just have to cover it up and be sneaky.

Good for you. Shows what morals you have. Meh I guess you already made a shitty impression so doesn't matter eh

Iliad wrote:

dinobot wrote:Liberty is a retarded catchphrase, coined by the US. I'd rather be a rich guy in a dictatorship, then a poor guy in some liberal hippy welfare country.

This is how democracy fails, none of the politicians really deal with anything important (except Ron Paul, but his ideas are still batshit insane) and voters vote based off their preconceived perceptions of the candidates (ie, they think George Bush is some god abiding, all Texan cowboy, but it really turns out he's a coke snorting rich boy).

All democracy guarantees you, is a government that doesn't blatantly screw you over. They still do, they just have to cover it up and be sneaky.

Good for you. Shows what morals you have. Meh I guess you already made a shitty impression so doesn't matter eh

It's better to actually live a good life, then to be a smug jack ass being raped by corporations and eating shit for breakfast. Maybe if you'd open your eyes, you'd realise that most of your countries leaders are retarded, immoral assholes who are frequently charged for embezzlement, corruption and a whole slough of fucked up personal problems (cheating on their wives, smoking crack, molesting children etc.).

The people who get into power in democracies, are asshole rich faggots, who don't really give a shit about the country. At least in dictatorships, you'll occasionally get a guy like Lenin (not saying his policies were good) who actually cares about the country and his ideals.

But whatever, have fun with your coke crazy president fucking every broad he see's.

wihout freedom, life is just shades of grey.


quick-somebody write that down!
wheres mustard when he is needed...

Power corrupts. It's a universal law

well *coughs in most pretentious style, whilst waving ebony tipped cane*
its actually just a saying of the Cambridge historian, Lord Acton:
"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
hes probabaly right, darn him.
Although Clem Atlee may have been an exception.

Norse wrote:
Having said this, a few savage beatings to christians wouldn't go a miss either.

We're not all squealing leftists trying to operate get "twade justice" (an abhorration to every sound economic principle ever devised if there ever was one).

Christianity is part of your cultural identity, you become some paganistic pseudo-identitary without recognising it.

Napoleon Ier wrote:Christianity is part of your cultural identity, you become some pseudo-identitary without recognising it.

You would, your average human being who doesn't see it as any better or worse than other religions wouldn't.

unriggable wrote:

Napoleon Ier wrote:Christianity is part of your cultural identity, you become some pseudo-identitary without recognising it.

You would, your average human being who doesn't see it as any better or worse than other religions wouldn't.

Your average human being is an idiot. Occidental culture is founded upon noth Christian and gréco-latin roots.

dinobot wrote:

Iliad wrote:

dinobot wrote:Liberty is a retarded catchphrase, coined by the US. I'd rather be a rich guy in a dictatorship, then a poor guy in some liberal hippy welfare country.

This is how democracy fails, none of the politicians really deal with anything important (except Ron Paul, but his ideas are still batshit insane) and voters vote based off their preconceived perceptions of the candidates (ie, they think George Bush is some god abiding, all Texan cowboy, but it really turns out he's a coke snorting rich boy).

All democracy guarantees you, is a government that doesn't blatantly screw you over. They still do, they just have to cover it up and be sneaky.

Good for you. Shows what morals you have. Meh I guess you already made a shitty impression so doesn't matter eh

It's better to actually live a good life, then to be a smug jack ass being raped by corporations and eating shit for breakfast. Maybe if you'd open your eyes, you'd realise that most of your countries leaders are retarded, immoral assholes who are frequently charged for embezzlement, corruption and a whole slough of fucked up personal problems (cheating on their wives, smoking crack, molesting children etc.).

The people who get into power in democracies, are asshole rich faggots, who don't really give a shit about the country. At least in dictatorships, you'll occasionally get a guy like Lenin (not saying his policies were good) who actually cares about the country and his ideals.

But whatever, have fun with your coke crazy president fucking every broad he see's.

Dude it's obvious that you are a kid and the leaders care about the country and we have a prime minister. Guess they haven't taught you that yet?

suggs wrote:well *coughs in most pretentious style, whilst waving ebony tipped cane*
its actually just a saying of the Cambridge historian, Lord Acton:
"power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely".
hes probabaly right, darn him.
Although Clem Atlee may have been an exception.

I bet that ebony came from non-sustainable forests, you heartless bastard

Napoleon Ier wrote:Your average human being is an idiot.

And that's why religion is a worldwide phenomena. People need reasons simple enough to understand but complicated enough to explain the unexplainable.