Conquer Club

As many of you probably know, recent movies and books have brought the Knights Templar into public view. People who wouldn't normally know anything about them at least know that they existed, or exist, depending on what your personal beliefs are.

I, myself, have been doing quite a bit of studying of the Knights Templar. I have found out that the history of the Templar is full of mystery and speculation. One person says one thing, and another has a completely different opinion. Were they protectors of innocent pilgrims traveling along the roads of the Holy Land, or were they money-hungry mercenaries out to make a fortune?

Throughout my short stint here at CC, I have found many a learned person who possess intimate knowledge on a wide variety of subjects. I posted this to find out what the CC community believes about the Knights Templar. Please try to keep this on topic. I am really curious about this.

They were put down for shagging cats and as a mason I would like to say that cat love is perfectly normal.

I too have been doing a bit of research on them for awhile, most of it was the same general info, up until they were disbanded. Other then the leader and a couple hundered more executed, and their fleet dissapearing, not much is known about what happened afterwards. Some theories point to them helping the Swiss come into power, others, some going to Scotland.

As for before being disbanded, it started out as a small group of knightly-monks that would safe-guard the pilgrims. But some evidence has been found at the Temple of Solomon (their namesake place), suggesting that they found something, what though, has never been found out. They also went on to make the standard banking system (at least it's predessor). And that is a short summary of what I know of them.

I have a book stating, specifically, the history of their origins, and who led them at which time. It also tells of their demise. I find it all very interesting. What is your honest opinion of them, MTG? I don't feel that I have studied them long enough, and anything I would have to say would be a guess right now. I would love to think that they WERE honest men who defended pilgrims, and just happened to stumble upon something spectacular.

I'm sure they're well connected with the Freemasons and are very traditional and religious.

FiveThreeEight wrote:I have a book stating, specifically, the history of their origins, and who led them at which time. It also tells of their demise. I find it all very interesting. What is your honest opinion of them, MTG? I don't feel that I have studied them long enough, and anything I would have to say would be a guess right now. I would love to think that they WERE honest men who defended pilgrims, and just happened to stumble upon something spectacular.

I believe that they were framed by the French King, who owed money to them. I believe )from what I have seen) that they were wrongly accused, but it was partially their fault for being so secretive. I also believe that they had many treasures that their naval fleet took, and dissappeared. Other then that, I am a bit unsure (though I find no merit in the Da Vinci Code type of thing).

That's my take, and I'm sure Guiscard will have something to say on this.

There isn't enough factual evidence about the Templars to make any conclusion. They were destroyed by the Pope and the emperor of France, possibly for financial reasons, possibly religious. The Templars are the JFK of the middle ages.

I'm actually waiting for Guicard to chime in on this.

As far as the Templars actually finding the sarcophagus of Jesus' spouse, I find that very hard to believe. However, I guess anything is possible. I will tell you this:

My reading on this subject has changed many of my beliefs on religion.

One more thing. What do you guys have to say on the belief that one of the Templars' goal in the Holy Land was to unite the three major religions?

I don't believe I have heard that one before, but I seriously doubt it. Due to them being Catholic Zealots.

I would say something, but I might have to kill the entire population on CC if I do...

muy_thaiguy wrote:I don't believe I have heard that one before, but I seriously doubt it. Due to them being Catholic Zealots.

I have heard that uniting the three main religions existing in Jerusalem was one of the goals of the Templars, and that their relationship with Catholicism was a ruse that allowed them to establish themselves in the Holy Land. Pretty far-fetched, I know.

FiveThreeEight wrote:I have a book stating, specifically, the history of their origins, and who led them at which time. It also tells of their demise. I find it all very interesting. What is your honest opinion of them, MTG? I don't feel that I have studied them long enough, and anything I would have to say would be a guess right now. I would love to think that they WERE honest men who defended pilgrims, and just happened to stumble upon something spectacular.

May I ask whose book you're referring to? Is it Nicholson, or perhaps Howarth?

To be honest I've not studied the orders in particular detail, that isn't really my specific area. To be honest, though, the academic world doesn't give a whole lot of truck to the whole Dan Brown mythological stuff. Don't have a whole lot to say on the matter really.

As for interesting facts, one my favorite tidbits is that there is a theory that the Templars 'caused' the disaster at Hattin. Henry II, as penance for Becket, vowed to take the cross. The situation on England and France meant it would be fairly impossible for him to travel east without the Angevin empire falling apart, so he gave a very significant monetary contribution instead. This was given into the care of the Templars to use in an appropriate way. When it came to Hattin, the King would most likely have wanted to act in a more reserved manner, as he had before and as he was advised by Raymond, but it seems the Grand Master may have encouraged him to act because otherwise Henry's purse would have remained unused and would possibly have been reclaimed. Use it or lose it, as it were. Not seeking a pitched battle would have almost certainly avoided the destruction of the crusader forces and, consequently, the fall of Jerusalem.

As for source material, the Internet Medieval Sourcebook has a good section on the orders, and the Templars specifically. I'd take a look if you want to see the material historians are taking their information from. St. Bernard of Clairvaux's 'In praise of...' is a good contemporary(ish) summary of the importance and role of the orders at the time.

As for their role in the Holy Land? Uniting the religions is certainly far fetched. I've not really seen any mention of that at conferences or in the journals and suchlike... Holy Blood, Holy Grail isn't really that well thought of, as you might guess... As far as I am aware there is no documentary or archaeological evidence of them 'discovering' anything whatsoever.

Edit: Link for the sourcebook http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook1k. ... r%20Orders

... I heard, or read (cannot recall) that Friday the 13th's "spookiness" is the historical leftover from the day so many of the knights were burned at the stake.

... Is this the case? Granted, it's not "deep thinking history", but I'm curious all the same.

...

Nobunaga wrote:... I heard, or read (cannot recall) that Friday the 13th's "spookiness" is the historical leftover from the day so many of the knights were burned at the stake.

... Is this the case? Granted, it's not "deep thinking history", but I'm curious all the same.

...

Thats one theory, yes. It relates to the mass arrest of Templars by the King of France in 1307, I believe...

Then again, 13 is a generally unlucky number (as 12 is complete - 12 months, 12 tribes, 12 signs of the zodiac etc. etc.) and Friday was the date Jesus was crucified...

Guiscard wrote:Thats one theory, yes. It relates to the mass arrest of Templars by the King of France in 1307, I believe...

Then again, 13 is a generally unlucky number (as 12 is complete - 12 months, 12 tribes, 12 signs of the zodiac etc. etc.) and Friday was the date Jesus was crucified...

Also, there were 13 people at the table during the last supper (Jesus plus 12 apostles)

Hey Guiscard, what I was reffering to was that some archeologists that were in the Israel/Palestine area (or something like that) came across a holding or what was left of the Temple of Solomon (I think, I can't remember the exact details at the moment) possibly found something of value there, due to the Dead Sea Scrolls being found there (in recent times) yet there was evidence that the Templars were there first.

muy_thaiguy wrote:Hey Guiscard, what I was reffering to
was that some archeologists that were in the Israel/Palestine area (or something like that) came across a holding or what was left of the Temple of Solomon (I think, I can't remember the exact details at the moment) possibly found something of value there, due to the Dead Sea Scrolls being found there (in recent times) yet there was evidence that the Templars were there first.

The location of the temple on Temple Mount isn't exactly debated (hence the name). There was some evidence found after construction on the mount in 1999, and I think last year they found some artifacts from the first temple period. You might perhaps be referring to the tunnels found in the 19th century by the PEF, but thats not really anything mysterious.

As for the dead sea scrolls, I don't really know to what you are referring. If whatever claim you have read had any respectability I'm sure I would have come across it in academic circles. No offence, but it is most likely Holy Blood, Holy Grail-esque pseudo-historical bunk.

I'm sure all these conspiracy books and websites make great reading, and it makes great fiction, but I'm afraid thats all it is. Fiction.

The Templars were nothing more than a military order, given their own rule, who gained fairly extensive land holdings throughout Europe. Like any group who held significant power, they made their enemies and, eventually, that was their downfall. Nothing mysterious in that. Real history gives us much more exciting stories than Dan Brown ever could, in my opinion.

I remember something about the Templars supposedly praying to Baphomet the demonic god of money, greed, and wealth; and that part of their intiation was to consume ejaculations from other members. Is this true?

DaGip wrote:I remember something about the Templars supposedly praying to Baphomet the demonic god of money, greed, and wealth; and that part of their intiation was to consume ejaculations from other members. Is this true?

No.

Chris7He wrote:I'm sure they're well connected with the Freemasons and are very traditional and religious.

Just because the Freemasons invoked the Templar 'mythology' doesn't mean they ever had any connection. There's a 400 year gap. No connection whatsoever other than Masonic writers included Templar imagery and titles to enhance the 'mystical' or 'secretive' elements of freemasonry.

Again, Dan Brown bollocks.

I don't buy the "Holy Blood Holy Grail" stuff one bit. It was a TV program about the Templars that has been shown a few times. All I'm saying is, is that I think they found some gold or something like that and decided to safegaurd it.

muy_thaiguy wrote:I don't buy the "Holy Blood Holy Grail" stuff one bit. It was a TV program about the Templars that has been shown a few times. All I'm saying is, is that I think they found some gold or something like that and decided to safegaurd it.

They had a lot of gold. They acted as moneylenders and banking establishments on numerous occasions. If you've got any more detail, though, I'm sure I could elaborate on what academics have said about the subject.

Guiscard wrote:

DaGip wrote:I remember something about the Templars supposedly praying to Baphomet the demonic god of money, greed, and wealth; and that part of their intiation was to consume ejaculations from other members. Is this true?

No.

Here is a link to the Baphomet thing:

http://www.templarhistory.com/baphomet.html

and here is from Wikipdia:

Debate continues as to whether the accusation of religious heresy had merit by the standards of the time. Under torture, some Templars admitted to homosexual acts, and to the worship of heads and a mystery known as Baphomet.

Now, as you all know, torture (according to Bush) is an excellent way to derive information that you want...so why shouldn't we believe all this to be true?

DaGip wrote:

Guiscard wrote:

DaGip wrote:I remember something about the Templars supposedly praying to Baphomet the demonic god of money, greed, and wealth; and that part of their intiation was to consume ejaculations from other members. Is this true?

No.

Here is a link to the Baphomet thing:

http://www.templarhistory.com/baphomet.html

and here is from Wikipdia:

Debate continues as to whether the accusation of religious heresy had merit by the standards of the time. Under torture, some Templars admitted to homosexual acts, and to the worship of heads and a mystery known as Baphomet.

Now, as you all know, torture (according to Bush) is an excellent way to derive information that you want...so why shouldn't we believe all this to be true?

The accusations of heresy weren't accepted by the Church as a true reflection of the Templar's practices. I can send you a PDF of Barbara Frale's description of the Chinon document, detailing the papal trial of the Templars, which absolves them of all heretical wrongdoing. Or else just type Chinon parchment into wikipedia.

As I said before, the answer is no.

Guiscard, I forget the book, or who wrote it. I'm at work, and would have to scour my library at home to see the author and title. As you say, it appears that the Templars were just what you say, a military order. If that is true, then my interest grows even more. You are right. Factual history gives us much better stories than any fiction could.

If anyone has any suggested reading, I would appreciate it. I'm planning on devoting a lot of my free time to this.