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A real, non-trolling question for christians

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A real, non-trolling question for christians

Postby heavycola on Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:52 am

Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?
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Postby Strife on Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:56 am

I have a question to add; If jesus is god and god is god, who is the real god? Is it god or jesus?
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Postby lord voldemort on Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:57 am

old testament gear id assume. simple short answer is jesus's new covenant with us requires not to do all that stuff now. ie sacrificing lambs etc. i think that answers your question im open for discussion
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Postby lord voldemort on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:01 am

Strife wrote:I have a question to add; If jesus is god and god is god, who is the real god? Is it god or jesus?


all the same person as such, holy trinity, god jesus holy spirit. all the same "being" but work in diferent ways, god as god, jesus as human form died for our sins etc and holy spirit lives within us always
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Postby Strife on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:04 am

lord voldemort wrote:
Strife wrote:I have a question to add; If jesus is god and god is god, who is the real god? Is it god or jesus?


all the same person as such, holy trinity, god jesus holy spirit. all the same "being" but work in diferent ways, god as god, jesus as human form died for our sins etc and holy spirit lives within us always
So jesus, in a sense, inpregnated his own mother? :-s
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Postby diddle on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:09 am

The rules are a little....... flexible.
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Postby HayesA on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:13 am

diddle wrote:The rules are a little....... flexible.


Which certainly do not make them laws. No law, or even rule should be "flexible." Either it's true, or it is not.
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Postby Minister Masket on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:16 am

diddle wrote:The rules are a little....... flexible.

These are the ones that some consider to be....un-natural.
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Postby lord voldemort on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:25 am

HayesA wrote:
diddle wrote:The rules are a little....... flexible.


Which certainly do not make them laws. No law, or even rule should be "flexible." Either it's true, or it is not.


it was a law back in ot times...but the point of jesus was that he got rid of all those traditions..

Strife wrote:So jesus, in a sense, inpregnated his own mother?

yer jesus is god god is holy spirit holy spirit is jesus, so yes, and god didnt impregnate mary, he blessed her and joseph with a child..ie had josephs dna
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Postby comic boy on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:43 am

lord voldemort wrote:old testament gear id assume. simple short answer is jesus's new covenant with us requires not to do all that stuff now. ie sacrificing lambs etc. i think that answers your question im open for discussion


Does it specificaly say in the New Testament that these laws are no longer applicable ?
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Postby lord voldemort on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:48 am

comic boy wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:old testament gear id assume. simple short answer is jesus's new covenant with us requires not to do all that stuff now. ie sacrificing lambs etc. i think that answers your question im open for discussion


Does it specificaly say in the New Testament that these laws are no longer applicable ?


um, dnt think so, let me get bak to you on that.

but it is doubtful, the majority of traditions were thrown out to say after the acts 2 church movement. ie the christian church today

but like i said thats the simple answer, im sure i could write a whole paper on it and im sure i will have to at one stage during my studies. il email my lecturer see what she says if u want a specific answer.
but yer short answer is that most traditions, inc those were phased out. obviously that comes with society changes too.
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Re: A real, non-trolling question for christians

Postby jay_a2j on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:55 am

heavycola wrote:Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?



Jesus came and fulfilled the law. OT "Eye for an eye", later Jesus says, "You have heard "Eye for an eye" but I tell you , if someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also." Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, that's why. Good question. :wink:
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Re: A real, non-trolling question for christians

Postby lord voldemort on Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:56 am

jay_a2j wrote:
heavycola wrote:Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?



Jesus came and fulfilled the law. OT "Eye for an eye", later Jesus says, "You have heard "Eye for an eye" but I tell you , if someone strikes you on the right cheek turn to him the other also." Jesus was the fulfillment of the law, that's why. Good question. :wink:


thats better than my simple answer!! of jesus fixed it lol
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Postby Nephilim on Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:12 pm

another important idea w/ this is supercessionism, the notion that jesus/christianity supercede moses/mosaic laws. for me, this is complicated for lots of reasons, one of them being jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-19

inerrancy refers to the complete inspiration of every word of the Bible and it's "truthiness" on every subject it addresses, as i'm sure you know, heavy c. so it seems your question really gets at selective obedience more than inerrancy. so, i think the real answer is, Xty moved away from a branch of judaism into a gentile and worldwide religion, and folks began to say that one didn't have to become a jew to become a Xtn (notably st paul). but of course we shouldn't forget that paul remained a good jew even after his "conversion" to christ.

good question, dude. another one is: how come Xtns don't follow all the "commands" in the NT, like greeting each other w/ a holy kiss and giving to anyone who asks of you? turning the other cheek would be nice too....

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Postby lord voldemort on Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:15 pm

the important thing though is to realise we all screw up and jc died for us so its all good as such!![/b]
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Postby heavycola on Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:32 pm

Thanks for the replies.

i like the 'turn the other cheek' directive - i might spend sunday waiting outside churches and slapping people as they come out*



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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:39 pm

lord voldemort wrote:the important thing though is to realise we all screw up and jc died for us so its all good as such!!

I don't think Jean Chrétien Image died for our sins...
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Postby Optimus Prime on Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:00 pm

I would jump in on this, but you fellas don't think I'm Christian cause I'm Mormon,...looks like a good discussion so far though.
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Postby PLAYER57832 on Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:08 pm

My history of religion (tongue somewhat in cheek)

First you had these folks who called themselves Jews. Primary distinction was that they believed in one God. After a time, that wasn't enough. Rules had to be established. In came the ten commandments, followed by what is generally referred to as the Mosaic laws (after this guy named Moses).

A lot of stuff happened. The groups split. Rules changed, were added, etc. Around 0 B.C. (convenient, that), things were perhaps particularly interesting. As happens with humans, different folks had different ideas about all this and had split off to form their own groups. The Pharassees, the Sadducees, etc, etc. As is the way with humans, they couldn't stick to just religious differences, there were power struggles, outright corruption and the general fracass called "politics". These folks called "Romans" had their say as well. About this time was born a man named "Jesus". He grew up, looked around and said "aha" ... the rules are great, but you have lost sight of their porpose. Remember above all else to love thy God and love thy neighbor as thyself. The rest is ... detail.

Of course this upset a good many folks, so they had to get rid of him. Except ... he became even more popular. Unfortunately, it didn't solve things. More recent ideas have been to a. fix the corruption, clarify problems, make a few changes, but stay (more or less) with the old rules and system -- most of these folks call themselves "Jews", though in some cases the changes were great indeed. b. Change the rules, add some more ... take what this Jesus guy said and go further ... thereby have we Islam. c. Oh yeah, back to that Jesus guy. We have one group who want one leader to clarify things .. they call him Pope and became Roman Catholics. Another groups said "hey, no way .. we want to decide for ourselves".. they tend to be called "protestant". Similar divisions occured within each of the other religions in this tale, but this story is long enough.


And to all the scholars out there .. don't take this too seriously... it is a somewhat tongue in cheek (though generally valid, I believe) response to a beer-based question.

And, in case you feel I didn't answer your question closely enough ... The law is a guide. Though it comes from God, it is put forward by humans. It contains the truth, but is not itself the whole truth. Christ told us, in the end, that we should follow the law, but remember to above all else "love our god and love our neighbors". That is the heart of ALL the commandments. The true purpose of the law is to help us to follow those two dictates. Many of the dictates to which you point are now considered (by some, NOT ALL!) to be cultural norms and not true laws. Women wearing hair covering is another example. The new testament says that if you are in an area where uncovered hair signals harlotry, then Christian women should cover their hair. Some folks take this to mean women should cover their hair ALWAYS. Others do not.
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Postby btownmeggy on Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:12 pm

MeDeFe wrote:
lord voldemort wrote:the important thing though is to realise we all screw up and jc died for us so its all good as such!!

I don't think Jean Chrétien Image died for our sins...


I believe he was referring to Jimmy Carter.
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Postby bryguy on Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:20 pm

i found a little altered version of the song "Hello mudda, hello fadda"

it was a religious version, but i cant find it now :cry:
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Postby vtmarik on Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:11 pm

So wait, there are all these OT laws and such, but since Jesus came and we have the NT, we don't really have to follow the OT laws since he came and made new ones?

If that's true, then why do conservative Christian pundits keep referring to Leviticus when talking about homosexuality? Why do they refer to any OT teaching or law when the only reason it is in the Bible in the first place is to provide context for the NT?
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Postby sheepofdumb on Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:21 pm

lord voldemort wrote:
HayesA wrote:
diddle wrote:The rules are a little....... flexible.


Which certainly do not make them laws. No law, or even rule should be "flexible." Either it's true, or it is not.


it was a law back in ot times...but the point of jesus was that he got rid of all those traditions..

Strife wrote:So jesus, in a sense, inpregnated his own mother?

yer jesus is god god is holy spirit holy spirit is jesus, so yes, and god didnt impregnate mary, he blessed her and joseph with a child..ie had josephs dna


I can agree with you up till the you say God didn't impregnate Mary. God did impregnate Mary. It wasn't a impregnation but he did impregnate her. Jesus, or God, took on the shell of a human. Therefore he can be all God, on a spiritual sense, and all human, in a physical sense.
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Postby Chris7He on Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:48 pm

lord voldemort wrote:
Strife wrote:I have a question to add; If jesus is god and god is god, who is the real god? Is it god or jesus?


all the same person as such, holy trinity, god jesus holy spirit. all the same "being" but work in diferent ways, god as god, jesus as human form died for our sins etc and holy spirit lives within us always


Bullshit. Why did was God pleased with Jesus or why did Jesus refer to God as the father? Is God schizophrenic? If so, then which 'personality' is the true God?
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Re: A real, non-trolling question for christians

Postby Gregrios on Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:48 pm

heavycola wrote:Apols for another religion thread but I have a question and this forum is the only place where i rub shoulders with christians of a more fundamental bent.

I am not trolling although I might argue with you a bit.

Anyway - drunken conversation last night and the following came up:

If the bible is god's inerrant word, why is it OK for christians to wear two different kinds of cloth, cut their hair at the temples (all the laws in the pentateuch, basically) when the bible explicitly says these are forbidden? Why is it OK to disregard those bits of the bible?


None of those things are considered sinning. Do you really think that God would condemn someone for cutting their hair? I'm just going with logic here because he's a caring and just God. If someone cut their hair or wore more than 2 pieces of clothes, than big deal. The only consequences would probably be that that person would deny themselves of heavenly luxaries. The main thing that God expects from us is not to sin. Sin is simply not doing the right thing when you know the difference between right and wrong. There's a misconception out there that sinning is breaking the 10 commandments. It is true, but that's not all of it. Not to sin is to obey the 10 commandments and do the right thing when you know what is right. These are exactly the same thing.
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