Innocent black man punished by racist Californian government

[bigtoughralf]

A black man has spent most of his life locked up in the US for a crime committed by another black man, under the US Government's 'They're All Guilty of Something' statute.

Poor Maurice Hastings spent 38 years behind bars - facing all manner of violent and sexual abuse in one of America's notorious prisons - during which time he repeatedly protested his innocence.

Now, defenders have managed to collate so much irrefutable evidence that US authorities have had no choice but to let him go. As compensation for losing almost all of his life sitting in prison, Maurice was offered a verbal statement from the presiding judge acknowledging that the government did an oopsie:

A US man who spent nearly four decades in prison for murder has been released after new DNA evidence pointed to a different person.

LA County District Attorney George Gascón described his conviction as a "terrible injustice".

[jimboston]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

[bigtoughralf]

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy)

IOW white guy over here's comfortable with a bit of black collateral in the system

[jimboston]

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy)

IOW white guy over here's comfortable with a bit of black collateral in the system

I never said I was comfortable with it.

I said it sucks.

I also pointed out that you like to throw rocks, and not provide solutions.

I also pointed out in accuracies in your post.

I also pointed out that Ireland has not been known as a mecca of enlighten non-biased civilization.

You seem to focus on one thing that I never stated and ignore all the actual points I did make.

Has JP4 hacked your account?

[bigtoughralf]

you like to throw rocks, and not provide solutions.

Black guys banged up in prison for decades on dubious-at-best evidence just because they looked shifty. Don't think it really needs me to point out what the solution might be does it?

I also pointed out that Ireland has not been known as a mecca of enlighten non-biased civilization.

Maybe the judge should have mentioned that at the end of his verdict. I'm sure it would bring comfort to Maurice to know that while he may have spent 40 years of his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit, at least he's not in Ireland surrounded by stupid Paddies.

[mookiemcgee]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

To the best of my knowledge he's entitled to $140/day that he was incarcerated in CA. He may have other avenues to sue for more, but that usually requires some evidence of wrongful acts by the DA/police. So $1.5m "virtually guaranteed", I'd rather have my 30 years back but it's not nothing. I wonder if people wrongfully convicted in China get anything? They probably get killed so the state doesn't have to acknowledge any mistake

[jimboston]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

To the best of my knowledge he's entitled to $140/day that he was incarcerated in CA. He may have other avenues to sue for more, but that usually requires some evidence of wrongful acts by the DA/police. So $1.5m "virtually guaranteed", I'd rather have my 30 years back but it's not nothing. I wonder if people wrongfully convicted in China get anything? They probably get killed so the state doesn't have to acknowledge any mistake

I agree no amount of money gives you your life back.

[jimboston]

you like to throw rocks, and not provide solutions.

Black guys banged up in prison for decades on dubious-at-best evidence just because they looked shifty. Don't think it really needs me to point out what the solution might be does it?

I also pointed out that Ireland has not been known as a mecca of enlighten non-biased civilization.

Maybe the judge should have mentioned that at the end of his verdict. I'm sure it would bring comfort to Maurice to know that while he may have spent 40 years of his life in prison for a crime he didn't commit, at least he's not in Ireland surrounded by stupid Paddies.

More rocks… you have an unlimited pile of them?

I’ve never said I support bad policing or wrongful prosecution.

I do believe there are steps we can take to minimize this stuff… but nothing we say here changes anything that has occurred in the past and nothing we say here will likely impact the future.

I also believe that way way more guilty people go free… which I think is necessary to try to minimize the number of innocents who are convicted.

What’s your solution? No legal system?

… and yeah I never said all you Mics were stupid. I just pointed out that your society has its’ own bias problems.

I’m sure you know more about ‘The Troubles’ than I do… your country’s biases are religion based not race based, but they exist and are just as real.

You in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.

[bigtoughralf]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

To the best of my knowledge he's entitled to $140/day that he was incarcerated in CA. He may have other avenues to sue for more, but that usually requires some evidence of wrongful acts by the DA/police. So $1.5m "virtually guaranteed", I'd rather have my 30 years back but it's not nothing. I wonder if people wrongfully convicted in China get anything? They probably get killed so the state doesn't have to acknowledge any mistake

This Chinese man got approx. $70 compensation for each day he was wrongfully imprisoned. That's about half the amount you're saying Americans get, but then China's average income is about 1/6th of America's so Zhang Yuhuan's $70 will go a lot further than Maurice Hastings' $140.

Fewer people wasting away in prison, fewer wrongful convictions, more generous state aid to support the occasional mistake. Chinese justice rules! Maybe the States could learn from China?

[bigtoughralf]

What’s your solution? No legal system?

That's right, there are only two possible systems: widespread punitive incarceration, or anarchy. There is no middle ground.

I’m sure you know more about ‘The Troubles’ than I do… your country’s biases are religion based not race based

First you were talking about Ireland, now you're talking about Northern Ireland. Next you're going to be quoting scenes from The Departed at me. Guess those 'Mics' [sic] are all the same to you though aren't they?

[jimboston]

What’s your solution? No legal system?

That's right, there are only two possible systems: widespread punitive incarceration, or anarchy. There is no middle ground.

There is… but you’re just bitchin’ and not honestly… so why would I think you’d be open to a real discussion?

I’m sure you know more about ‘The Troubles’ than I do… your country’s biases are religion based not race based

First you were talking about Ireland, now you're talking about Northern Ireland. Next you're going to be quoting scenes from The Departed at me. Guess those 'Mics' [sic] are all the same to you though aren't they?

The ‘Mics’ in the USA (like myself) who have been here for generations aren’t really Irish.

My whole point about biases in Ireland was a reference to the problems between Catholics and Protestants in the first place. These problems are not confined to the ‘borders’ of Northern Ireland, they have spilt out of Belfast and cause chaos and death not only in Ireland but in Great Britain as well.

That said the “construction” that separates “Ireland” from “Northern Ireland” is a false border imposed on the people by the colonial occupation of England. The actual people who live in “Ireland” and “Northern Ireland” are essentially the same. The ‘Mics’ who live in Boston and are characterized in movies like The Departed are similar genetically and share common surnames with true Irish, but are very different in terms of their current social constructs.

[saxitoxin]

Give him that LA bus voucher and he'll ask to go back to prison. Less of a chance of being robbed or raped in prison.

[mookiemcgee]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

To the best of my knowledge he's entitled to $140/day that he was incarcerated in CA. He may have other avenues to sue for more, but that usually requires some evidence of wrongful acts by the DA/police. So $1.5m "virtually guaranteed", I'd rather have my 30 years back but it's not nothing. I wonder if people wrongfully convicted in China get anything? They probably get killed so the state doesn't have to acknowledge any mistake

This Chinese man got approx. $70 compensation for each day he was wrongfully imprisoned. That's about half the amount you're saying Americans get, but then China's average income is about 1/6th of America's so Zhang Yuhuan's $70 will go a lot further than Maurice Hastings' $140.

Fewer people wasting away in prison, fewer wrongful convictions, more generous state aid to support the occasional mistake. Chinese justice rules! Maybe the States could learn from China?

From your story "the largest sum granted for any wrongful imprisonment". In CA anyone/everyone wrongfully imprisoned over a set amount of time gets the payout, and you don't have to hire Wang Fei at $2500/hour in order to do it.

[saxitoxin]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

To the best of my knowledge he's entitled to $140/day that he was incarcerated in CA. He may have other avenues to sue for more, but that usually requires some evidence of wrongful acts by the DA/police. So $1.5m "virtually guaranteed", I'd rather have my 30 years back but it's not nothing. I wonder if people wrongfully convicted in China get anything? They probably get killed so the state doesn't have to acknowledge any mistake

This Chinese man got approx. $70 compensation for each day he was wrongfully imprisoned. That's about half the amount you're saying Americans get, but then China's average income is about 1/6th of America's so Zhang Yuhuan's $70 will go a lot further than Maurice Hastings' $140.

Fewer people wasting away in prison, fewer wrongful convictions, more generous state aid to support the occasional mistake. Chinese justice rules! Maybe the States could learn from China?

From your story "the largest sum granted for any wrongful imprisonment". In CA anyone/everyone wrongfully imprisoned over a set amount of time gets the payout, and you don't have to hire Wang Fei at $2500/hour in order to do it.

Ralf gets Wang for free.

[mookiemcgee]

He has a right to sue the government for compensation. Implying he will get nothing is a falsehood.

What he does get will likely be capped by statute… and no matter how much he gets it will never “correct” the wrong imposed on him.

So yeah it sucks, and our legal system is biased and full of flaws.

When you come up with a better system (taking into account human prejudice and bias, as well as the weird pressures and incentives used to manage humans in any large bureaucracy) then your comments will have value beyond just pointing out flaws.

I don’t think you care to look any deeper than just pointing shit out and throwing stones.

I’m sure the Irish legal system is perfect and always has been.
No bias there.

To the best of my knowledge he's entitled to $140/day that he was incarcerated in CA. He may have other avenues to sue for more, but that usually requires some evidence of wrongful acts by the DA/police. So $1.5m "virtually guaranteed", I'd rather have my 30 years back but it's not nothing. I wonder if people wrongfully convicted in China get anything? They probably get killed so the state doesn't have to acknowledge any mistake

This Chinese man got approx. $70 compensation for each day he was wrongfully imprisoned. That's about half the amount you're saying Americans get, but then China's average income is about 1/6th of America's so Zhang Yuhuan's $70 will go a lot further than Maurice Hastings' $140.

Fewer people wasting away in prison, fewer wrongful convictions, more generous state aid to support the occasional mistake. Chinese justice rules! Maybe the States could learn from China?

From your story "the largest sum granted for any wrongful imprisonment". In CA anyone/everyone wrongfully imprisoned over a set amount of time gets the payout, and you don't have to hire Wang Fei at $2500/hour in order to do it.

Ralf gets Wang for free.

Ralf Pwned

[bigtoughralf]

From your story "the largest sum granted for any wrongful imprisonment". In CA anyone/everyone wrongfully imprisoned over a set amount of time gets the payout, and you don't have to hire Wang Fei at $2500/hour in order to do it.

I guess when incarceration is such big business for a government that it locks up as many people per capita as North Korea, that government gets fairly efficient at processing the associated paper work.

In a free country like China, which uses prison much more sparingly, there is a bit more manual work to do to iron out all the creases after a mistake like this is identified.

[jimboston]

From your story "the largest sum granted for any wrongful imprisonment". In CA anyone/everyone wrongfully imprisoned over a set amount of time gets the payout, and you don't have to hire Wang Fei at $2500/hour in order to do it.

I guess when incarceration is such big business for a government that it locks up as many people per capita as North Korea, that government gets fairly efficient at processing the associated paper work.

In a free country like China, which uses prison much more sparingly, there is a bit more manual work to do to iron out all the creases after a mistake like this is identified.

and now it’s hammered home that you are incapable of having a real conversation.

[bigtoughralf]

US prisoners per 100,000 population: 600
China prisoners per 100,000 population: 130

Jim: 'people in the USA are so free*!'

*except for the millions undertaking slave labour while in jail for jaywalking

edit: corrected figures

[mookiemcgee]

In a free country like China

[bigtoughralf]

In a free country like China

What it's like inside an area temporarily quarantined due to a pandemic vs trying to cross an American road anywhere other than a government sanctioned Crossing Zone, at any point in time:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/15/us/tulsa ... index.html

[jimboston]

US prisoners per capita: 600
China prisoners per capita: 130

Jim: 'people in the USA are so free*!'

*except for the millions undertaking slave labour while in jail for jaywalking

I think what China defines as prison and what’s not prison is pretty loose.
Slave laboring in some conglomerate factory?

That’s even presuming China’s numbers are accurate… which I doubt.

[bigtoughralf]

Those aren't government statistics, they're World Prison Brief's independent estimates of China's likely prison population.

You could say 'but China also detains people outside of official prisons', but even if you take the most blood-curdling estimates of detainee numbers in Xinjiang - the sort of numbers that people put in reports titled 'Holocaust' while claiming everyone in Xinjiang has been killed twice - it would still only bring China's prison population up to about 1/3 of America's per capita rate.

So if you believe that China is a country that detains everyone its government vaguely dislikes to exterminate them and harvest their organs, America is still three times worse when it comes to detaining its citizens.

So yes, USA could learn from China (or literally any other country) when it comes to freedom.

[saxitoxin]

and now it’s hammered home

Too soon?

[jimboston]

I’m not arguing the point anymore because…

- I’m NOT defending the current legal system in the USA.
I believe it has many flaws and I can’t wholly defend it.
(Nor can I defend EVERY aspect of our gov’t, society, educational institutions, financial system, etc.)
There is much I would change.

- I don’t believe the stats or bias you bring to the table defending China.
Neither do I care enough to research and defend my anti-China bias.

- If the US sucks so bad why do people want to come here?
(and as I say that recognize China has become a more modern so emigration from China is likely down considerably since say the 1980’s.)

- I don’t ‘feel’ things here are as bad as your bias suggests… but again recognize that I am saying this as a college educated white man whose parents were also both college educated.

[bigtoughralf]

I didn't actually bring China into the conversation, mookie did. I was just pointing out that his whatabout argument is about as convincing as saxi pretending he doesn't like Trump any more.

- I don’t believe the stats or bias you bring to the table defending China.
Neither do I care enough to research and defend my anti-China bias.

Translation: 'I choose to ignore your statistics and independent evidence in favour of taking un-researched stances that fit with my prejudices'

Funny - that sounds just like the jury who convicted Maurice in the first place!