Conquer Club

Thousands of HK pro democracy protesters assembled outside the US consulate waving American flags and singing an out of tune version of the Star Spangled Banner. They praised Donald J Trump.and called for American benevolence.

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/pol ... ights-help

While the US has no interest in acquiring yellow colonies, and dumped the Phillipines like a bad habit, Trump empathizes with the unattainable dreams of the protesters and calls on the Greenlandic population to pay heed.

Greenland, Our Future Heritage

Why colonize Green Land, less people more oil?

Hong Kong seems like a better choice for manufacturing, apart from the population being enlightened and possibly wanting to live too well to be factory workers.

the citizens of Hong Kong have more respect for the American Flag then the American left...

You're mighty stunned. Not every flag burning piece of garbage is part of the left.

Furthermore, even if it does not seem like it, there are probably lots of gender confused lefties that understand how lucky they are to live in a country that tolerates and in many ways supports alternate lifestyles.

Patriotic democrats are still a thing.

Hey this is a great idea... let’s go to war with China over Hong Kong!

Idiotic.

What do these protestors hope to accomplish?
Maybe get on the news... I hope that’s it because that’s all they’ll get.

Even Trump isn’t dumb enough to push China too hard over Hong Kong. He may use the protests as some sort of leverage... but he’d throw Hong Kong under the bus in five seconds if he could get a favorable trade deal that would help the economy and help him win election next November.

Trump doesn’t give a shit about Human Rights in the USA, he won’t even give half a shit over Human Rights somewhere else!

I also think most Americans don’t really care (or think) about Human Rights elsewhere. There may be some lip service from the Left, but when pressed even the people that do care wouldn’t want any more action than a strongly worded statement.

The simple fact is that unless you’re talking about a very weak country (which China isn’t) we (the USA and other European powers) are toothless in our ability to act in any meaningful way. Words won’t sway China... sanctions hurt us as much as they hurt China... and we aren’t getting the military involved. If anyone was dumb enough to get the military involved... the pain and suffering of people increases 100fold over whatever complaints they currently have now.

The protesters are not thinking it would take war. They think things would work out easy and not turn into war.

They are protesting in the hopes that Trump will phone up the government of China and say, "We'll buy Hong Kong.", and China will happily say, "Ok, that sounds great."

Then everyone in Hong Kong gets to be American and free like on movies and television shows they have seen.

the flag triggers..

2dimes wrote:The protesters are not thinking it would take war. They think things would work out easy and not turn into war.

They are protesting in the hopes that Trump will phone up the government of China and say, "We'll buy Hong Kong.", and China will happily say, "Ok, that sounds great."

Then everyone in Hong Kong gets to be American and free like on movies and television shows they have seen.

Then I guess they aren’t too smart if that’s how they think it’d play out.

jimboston wrote:

2dimes wrote:The protesters are not thinking it would take war. They think things would work out easy and not turn into war.

They are protesting in the hopes that Trump will phone up the government of China and say, "We'll buy Hong Kong.", and China will happily say, "Ok, that sounds great."

Then everyone in Hong Kong gets to be American and free like on movies and television shows they have seen.

Then I guess they aren’t too smart if that’s how they think it’d play out.

I was going to make an angry retort but then I calmed down. I realized that you're limited by your first-world viewpoint and you don't really get it.

Back in Czechoslovakia, people used to talk a lot about how one day NATO will invade and liberate us from the Russians. Never mind that if NATO had done that, it would probably have led to a nuclear war and the end of all mankind. People weren't thinking that far. They just saw the ugly Russian ogre, saw no hope of throwing him out, and dreamt of a white knight coming from the west to drive him out. It's a fairy tale, but it's what people tell themselves when it's the only source of hope they have.

The people of Hong Kong are clinging to hope that a white knight will rescue them. Red China is an ogre vastly bigger and more insensitive than Russia was. Britain chickened out and didn't fight for them. America is the biggest game in town. Of course they will tell themselves fairy tales that America will come to the rescue. If you think that's "stupid", you don't understand the nature of hope in hopeless situations.

Dukasaur wrote:

jimboston wrote:

2dimes wrote:The protesters are not thinking it would take war. They think things would work out easy and not turn into war.

They are protesting in the hopes that Trump will phone up the government of China and say, "We'll buy Hong Kong.", and China will happily say, "Ok, that sounds great."

Then everyone in Hong Kong gets to be American and free like on movies and television shows they have seen.

Then I guess they aren’t too smart if that’s how they think it’d play out.

I was going to make an angry retort but then I calmed down. I realized that you're limited by your first-world viewpoint and you don't really get it.

Back in Czechoslovakia, people used to talk a lot about how one day NATO will invade and liberate us from the Russians. Never mind that if NATO had done that, it would probably have led to a nuclear war and the end of all mankind. People weren't thinking that far. They just saw the ugly Russian ogre, saw no hope of throwing him out, and dreamt of a white knight coming from the west to drive him out. It's a fairy tale, but it's what people tell themselves when it's the only source of hope they have.

The people of Hong Kong are clinging to hope that a white knight will rescue them. Red China is an ogre vastly bigger and more insensitive than Russia was. Britain chickened out and didn't fight for them. America is the biggest game in town. Of course they will tell themselves fairy tales that America will come to the rescue. If you think that's "stupid", you don't understand the nature of hope in hopeless situations.

Perhaps.

I will admit I have no life experience that could relate to theirs.

That said... a few points.

I don’t believe problems in HK are as serious as those experienced by Eastern Europeans under the Iron Curtain. HK is still relatively prosperous. Their problems are more freedom based and less survival based. I’m not saying they can’t change or get worse. I’m talking about the current situation.

I also think HKers have better access to info about the politics of the US, and therefore maybe they should have a more realistic understanding of the political and military realities of the modern world.

Again... I’m not living their experience... so maybe there’s a gray area between hope and what I casually called “stupidity”... and so maybe that word was wrong.

I think my assessment of the reality of the US ability/interest of getting involved was fair.

Chinese exports to the US have fallen 16% in the last 12 months and they've only made up a fraction of that in new markets. We need the protesters to take this right to the brink and then go over the edge so that the PLA brutally invades and European and Canadian human rights do gooders force their governments to boycott Chinese goods and Beijing has to roll over to Trump's MAGA trade requirements.

Chaos in Hong Kong = FOUR MORE YEARS OF DJT!!!

I'm sure the President has the CIA handing out bags of cash to the protest leaders already but it's time to double it. We need a PLA invasion ASAP.

Time is running out. If this tinderbox doesn't explode in the next week we'll need 100 CIA ex Afghan AK47s with filed off serial numbers to make their way into the hands of the angriest and craziest demonstrators. Not enough to stage a revolution, just enough throw a healthy dose of kerosene onto the fire.

jimboston wrote:
I will admit I have no life experience that could relate to theirs.

Thanks. And I admit I was probably harder on you than I needed to be.

Fair enough I might be ignorant of what's really going on in Hong Kong, but from what I have been lead to believe, even if it is deteriorating a bit, it's currently still a reasonably comfortable place to live.

I also don't know the severity of what might happen in the future but over all, China seems to be improving.

saxitoxin wrote:Time is running out. If this tinderbox doesn't explode in the next week we'll need 100 CIA ex Afghan AK47s with filed off serial numbers to make their way into the hands of the angriest and craziest demonstrators. Not enough to stage a revolution, just enough throw a healthy dose of kerosene onto the fire.

You’re a sadistic little f*ck.... or are you?

My theory... Saxi is spouting the opposite of what he truly thinks here... and is seeing who jumps on board with his plan.

Then when he convinces someone to be Radically Right, he’ll do a switchroo and see if he can get that same person to move Left.

Dukasaur wrote:Britain chickened out and didn't fight for them.

Presumably you think the UK also ‘chickened out’ when it failed to give diplomatic and material support to the rioters in Ferguson, the French yellow vest protesters, opposition parties running against corrupt Trudeau, etc?

Or should the internal affairs of those countries not to be meddled in because their leaders are white enough to know what they’re doing?

inb4 ‘Peking’

I think the British, French and Germans all chickened out by failing to directly condemn Trump for his sanctions on Iran, despite the fact all three governments are clearly opposed to them. That is what a poule looks like.

Do you know which were the only major governments to stand up for the Iranian people whose livelihoods are being trashed by Trump The Bully? China and Russia. But apparently they’re the bad guys.

mrswdk wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:Britain chickened out and didn't fight for them.

Presumably you think the UK also ‘chickened out’ when it failed to give diplomatic and material support to the rioters in Ferguson, the French yellow vest protesters, opposition parties running against corrupt Trudeau, etc?

I don't know what responsibility you think that the UK has to French protestors. They were never British subjects. The people of Hong Kong, on the other hand, were born in a British colony. Yes, the land belonged to China, but the people did not. They had every right to believe that Her Majesty's protection would extend over them forever. The passage of the British Nationality Act in 1981 was an abrogation of Her Majesty's responsibility to the people of many colonies, not just Hong Kong. Shortly after that, the Sino-British Joint Declaration cemented their fate.

Critics said, and I am one of them, that Britain made no real effort to fight for Hong Kong in the 1984 negotiations. It's true that Hong Kong, the territory, had to be handed back. There's no way that the waning power of Britain could have held a territory against the rising power of China, when it was on China's doorstep and on on the other side of the planet from Britain. That the territory had to go back to China in the end was inevitable, but Britain could have fought for the people. They could have been given British citizenship, and a spirited, hard-nosed negotiation could have secured that concession from China. Britain simply rolled over. Of course, it would have been hard for the British to make that case when they themselves cut the legs out from under those people with the British Nationality Act.

Makes one wonder if the Sino-British Joint Declaration was already in someone's mind when they drafted the BNA.

mrswdk wrote:I think the British, French and Germans all chickened out by failing to directly condemn Trump for his sanctions on Iran, despite the fact all three governments are clearly opposed to them. That is what a poule looks like.

I don't disagree. Despicable, disgusting, abject cowardice.

mrswdk wrote:Do you know which were the only major governments to stand up for the Iranian people whose livelihoods are being trashed by Trump The Bully? China and Russia. But apparently they’re the bad guys.

Yes, they're still the bad guys. They didn't stand up for Iran out of the kindness of their hearts, you can be sure of that. They have their own imperialistic schemes which are furthered by resisting the American schemes.

The UK didn’t make Hong Kongers British citizens because they never were British citizens. They were people born in a colony owned by the UK. If people in Hong Kong think the British government ever looked at them as equals to someone born in Manchester or Edinburgh then they are kidding themselves. By the time the UK handed Hong Kong back it had been letting all British people directly vote for their government representatives for something like 60-70 years. It never even came close to giving Hong Kongers that same privilege.

Also, Hong Kong has never been ‘on China’s doorstep’. Hong Kong is and always has been a part of China. The UK invading China and forcing it to let the UK temporarily administer Hong Kong as a colony doesn’t change that.

>Trump puts unjust economic sanctions on the ordinary people of Iran
>China and Russia object
>Duk: ‘cynical move by China and Russia!’

Putin could donate half his net worth to a social care charity and in the West* it would still be treated as a PR stunt to distract people from the conflict in Ukraine.


*in Germany’s defense they are sometimes a bit fairer with Russia than the United States of McCarthy and its lackeys

mrswdk wrote:The UK didn’t make Hong Kongers British citizens because they never were British citizens. They were people born in a colony owned by the UK. If people in Hong Kong think the British government ever looked at them as equals to someone born in Manchester or Edinburgh then they are kidding themselves. By the time the UK handed Hong Kong back it had been letting all British people directly vote for their government representatives for something like 60-70 years. It never even came close to giving Hong Kongers that same privilege.

You're too young to remember, but I still remember when the inside front cover of my Canadian passport carried the words "A Canadian citizen is a British subject" and the inside back cover said something along the lines of "in places where a Canadian consulate is not available you may always seek protection at a British consulate or High Commission."

The Commonwealth used to mean something. Maybe it doesn't any more.

mrswdk wrote: Hong Kong is and always has been a part of China.

... from Wiki

“The Qin dynasty incorporated the Hong Kong area into China for the first time in 214 BCE, after conquering the indigenous Baiyue.”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Kong
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qin_cam ... Yue_tribes

Please be careful with your use of the words like ‘always’ and never.

Granted 2100+ years of “ownership” is a more significant/solid claim than 100 years of “administration”... but 2100 years is barely 1% of the amount of time humans have been living on this planet, so on that scale it’s not very significant at all.

I’m being a nit picker, but it’s because I get annoyed with some indigenous people’s claims, and desires to turn land “back” over to indigenous peoples. Especially when you look at the claim in relation to the history/archeological record... and you find the indigenous people had only conquered that land in question themselves. So if that’s the case shouldn’t it go to the people who where there BEFORE that? Then you get into the questions like ‘how far back’ should you go... or how long does a piece of land have to be held continuously for you to say “enough”.

One could argue that “who had the land before” is meaningless... and the only important questions maybe are..
-Who lives there NOW?
-What type of gov’t do these people living NOW want?
... or maybe
-What country/people want that land most and balance that against who can take/hold it militarily?

In the case of Hong Kong, you either believe...
- Hong Kong citizen’s should have the right to self determination.
-or-
- China wants Hong Kong most, and China is the only significant power willing to and capable of holding it militarily. Therefore Hong Kong belongs to China.

Who did what 100years ago, or 2200 years ago, is really meaningless to solving the problem today.

Dukasaur wrote:

mrswdk wrote:The UK didn’t make Hong Kongers British citizens because they never were British citizens. They were people born in a colony owned by the UK. If people in Hong Kong think the British government ever looked at them as equals to someone born in Manchester or Edinburgh then they are kidding themselves. By the time the UK handed Hong Kong back it had been letting all British people directly vote for their government representatives for something like 60-70 years. It never even came close to giving Hong Kongers that same privilege.

You're too young to remember, but I still remember when the inside front cover of my Canadian passport carried the words "A Canadian citizen is a British subject" and the inside back cover said something along the lines of "in places where a Canadian consulate is not available you may always seek protection at a British consulate or High Commission."

The Commonwealth used to mean something. Maybe it doesn't any more.

.. we’re Hong Kong citizens ever treated on par with Canadian subjects of the Crown?

I doubt it.

The Commonwealth definitely is not the same as it was... but it could rise again after Brexit if the UK worked to make some sort of Commonwealth Free Trade Zone?

jimboston wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:

mrswdk wrote:The UK didn’t make Hong Kongers British citizens because they never were British citizens. They were people born in a colony owned by the UK. If people in Hong Kong think the British government ever looked at them as equals to someone born in Manchester or Edinburgh then they are kidding themselves. By the time the UK handed Hong Kong back it had been letting all British people directly vote for their government representatives for something like 60-70 years. It never even came close to giving Hong Kongers that same privilege.

You're too young to remember, but I still remember when the inside front cover of my Canadian passport carried the words "A Canadian citizen is a British subject" and the inside back cover said something along the lines of "in places where a Canadian consulate is not available you may always seek protection at a British consulate or High Commission."

The Commonwealth used to mean something. Maybe it doesn't any more.

.. we’re Hong Kong citizens ever treated on par with Canadian subjects of the Crown?

I doubt it.

The Commonwealth definitely is not the same as it was... but it could rise again after Brexit if the UK worked to make some sort of Commonwealth Free Trade Zone?

As far as nations go, there was a pecking order and the Dominions like Canada and Australia ranked higher than colonies. Citizens of dependent territories, however, remained subjects of the British Crown. In 1981 there was a conscious decision made to split it up an make it harder for citizens of the colonies to claim Her Majesty's protection.