Conquer Club

Tiananmen Square protests; Do not forget:

The enduring image of a lone man confronting Chinese tanks has come to stand for the bloody showdown between thousands of protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square, and hardliners in the Communist Party who ordered in the army.
On June 4, 1989, soldiers surrounding the square started shooting.

Wuerkaixi, one of the student leaders, managed to escape. Thirty years later, banned from China and living in exile, he's still haunted.

"I am a survivor of a massacre," he said. "We just thought they were going to send in a group of police with their, you know, batons."
In fact, they sent in troops and tanks. Hundreds – maybe thousands – died.

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.
There is nothing in this vast square to remind anybody of the events of 30 years ago – not a statue, not a monument, not even a tiny plaque. The events of June 4, 1989 have been erased from Chinese history.

Mrswdk will support the tanks going in.

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.

Not true. Maybe they were asking for ID in the run up to the anniversary, but they don’t normally.

Tiananmen Square is like Central Park or Trafalgar Square. It’s known all over China as a landmark location that’s worth visiting and that’s somewhere to go to mark big events. Most people are aware of the crackdown but that’s not what defines the square.

That is your ONLY REBUTTAL? Not the censorship? Not the repression of Democracy? Not the killing of many, even hundreds of protestors?

Good Move, mrswdk, good move. Good defense of FREEDOM. Great defense of Democracy......

.....NOT,.....! (that is for fake burn who has a difficult time with facetious comments.....)

JP

mrswdk wrote:

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.

Not true. Maybe they were asking for ID in the run up to the anniversary, but they don’t normally.

Tiananmen Square is like Central Park or Trafalgar Square. It’s known all over China as a landmark location that’s worth visiting and that’s somewhere to go to mark big events. Most people are aware of the crackdown but that’s not what defines the square.

jusplay4fun wrote:the repression of Democracy

What do you think democracy is? People in the UK sometimes talk about how the country is the world's 'oldest democracy', and yet most people in the UK feel that their government does not listen to people like them (source - page 17). So what is democracy?

In any case, 'the Tiananmen Square protests were about democracy' is a line trotted out every year in English-language media but isn't actually true. The gathering in Tiananmen Square wasn't one single protest movement protesting any one single issue. It was a lot of different groups of people who had each turned up with various different complaints about the government. Some people were calling for 'more democracy' but the majority of grievances being aired were about official corruption or were people who wanted the government to enact different economic policies. This is pretty well documented if Western journalists could actually be bothered to do their research. Nuance doesn't sell papers though, so none of them do.

It sure doesn't feel like thirty years ago.

mrswdk wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:the repression of Democracy

What do you think democracy is? People in the UK sometimes talk about how the country is the world's 'oldest democracy', and yet most people in the UK feel that their government does not listen to people like them (source - page 17). So what is democracy?

In any case, 'the Tiananmen Square protests were about democracy' is a line trotted out every year in English-language media but isn't actually true. The gathering in Tiananmen Square wasn't one single protest movement protesting any one single issue. It was a lot of different groups of people who had each turned up with various different complaints about the government. Some people were calling for 'more democracy' but the majority of grievances being aired were about official corruption or were people who wanted the government to enact different economic policies. This is pretty well documented if Western journalists could actually be bothered to do their research. Nuance doesn't sell papers though, so none of them do.

Nuances aside, transparency and democracy were common threads running through all the protests.

Of course the protestors were not a homogenous group. Large-scale movements are usually "big-tent" conglomerations of smaller movements, who may not agree with each other on every single particular. "Get the government to stop fucking the people" is the rough-cut common theme that unites them all, from the slave revolts in Sumeria in 2500 BC to the streets of Khartoum yesterday morning.

As I just mentioned to munkee, democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding whats for dinner.

What the heck is so great about democracy?
The founders of the U.S. knew democracy was nothing special, which is why they attempted to create a republic.

This years of the U.S. spouting they are spreading democracy (which is bs) has people believing in it.(because they are stupid and dont even know their country is a republic)

Most people are stupid, few people even study issues, intelligent well educated types that actually know what they are talking about are massively outnumbered by those that know/understand zip.

But democracy says all votes/opinions are equal.
In reality, democracy has intellectual inferiors deciding whats best for a society.
Whats so great about democracy?

Have no fear tho, if votes counted people wouldnt be allowed to do it.

armati wrote:As I just mentioned to munkee, democracy is 2 wolves and 1 sheep deciding whats for dinner.

What the heck is so great about democracy?
The founders of the U.S. knew democracy was nothing special, which is why they attempted to create a republic.

This years of the U.S. spouting they are spreading democracy (which is bs) has people believing in it.(because they are stupid and dont even know their country is a republic)

Most people are stupid, few people even study issues, intelligent well educated types that actually know what they are talking about are massively outnumbered by those that know/understand zip.

But democracy says all votes/opinions are equal.
In reality, democracy has intellectual inferiors deciding whats best for a society.
Whats so great about democracy?

Have no fear tho, if votes counted people wouldnt be allowed to do it.

And the superior alternative you are offering up is??? You seem like a Stalin kind of guy to me, do I have that about right?

I know you love to post quotes out of context, here's a great one in context:

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947 wrote:Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

or maybe you prefer:

Mark Twain wrote:But in this country we have one great privilege which they don't have in other countries. When a thing gets to be absolutely unbearable the people can rise up and throw it off. That's the finest asset we've got - the ballot box.

jusplay4fun wrote:Tiananmen Square protests; Do not forget:

The enduring image of a lone man confronting Chinese tanks has come to stand for the bloody showdown between thousands of protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square, and hardliners in the Communist Party who ordered in the army.
On June 4, 1989, soldiers surrounding the square started shooting.

Wuerkaixi, one of the student leaders, managed to escape. Thirty years later, banned from China and living in exile, he's still haunted.

"I am a survivor of a massacre," he said. "We just thought they were going to send in a group of police with their, you know, batons."
In fact, they sent in troops and tanks. Hundreds – maybe thousands – died.

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.
There is nothing in this vast square to remind anybody of the events of 30 years ago – not a statue, not a monument, not even a tiny plaque. The events of June 4, 1989 have been erased from Chinese history.

How weird! You appear to have written a post, almost word for word, identical to that of one of CNN's!

So anyway: here's the original, with links and attribution to the people who did the work, and ya know, the actual photographs:

Tiananmen Square, 30 years later

mrswdk wrote:

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.

Not true. Maybe they were asking for ID in the run up to the anniversary, but they don’t normally.

Tiananmen Square is like Central Park or Trafalgar Square. It’s known all over China as a landmark location that’s worth visiting and that’s somewhere to go to mark big events. Most people are aware of the crackdown but that’s not what defines the square.

It was true 30 years ago.... I believe that’s what his saying no?

The point is that protests by the people, especially by young college students, were going on in China and NOT just in Beijing. And the second point is the repression by the Government. Whether the protests were specifically for "democracy" or against government policy or corruption in the government is NOT the main point. The main points are 1) the protests by MANY and 2) repression of FREE Expression by the Chinese Government and 3) the continued censorship of those events.

Again, your prejudiced world view does not allow you to see beyond your myopic range. China does not have history of freedom of expression or democracy. Neither does most of the world, while we are speaking of the larger world view.

mrswdk wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:the repression of Democracy

What do you think democracy is? People in the UK sometimes talk about how the country is the world's 'oldest democracy', and yet most people in the UK feel that their government does not listen to people like them (source - page 17). So what is democracy?

In any case, 'the Tiananmen Square protests were about democracy' is a line trotted out every year in English-language media but isn't actually true. The gathering in Tiananmen Square wasn't one single protest movement protesting any one single issue. It was a lot of different groups of people who had each turned up with various different complaints about the government. Some people were calling for 'more democracy' but the majority of grievances being aired were about official corruption or were people who wanted the government to enact different economic policies. This is pretty well documented if Western journalists could actually be bothered to do their research. Nuance doesn't sell papers though, so none of them do.

so we can expect that YOU will cite all your quotes from here on, Symm?

Was I there to report those events? Hardly.

Symmetry wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:Tiananmen Square protests; Do not forget:

The enduring image of a lone man confronting Chinese tanks has come to stand for the bloody showdown between thousands of protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square, and hardliners in the Communist Party who ordered in the army.
On June 4, 1989, soldiers surrounding the square started shooting.

Wuerkaixi, one of the student leaders, managed to escape. Thirty years later, banned from China and living in exile, he's still haunted.

"I am a survivor of a massacre," he said. "We just thought they were going to send in a group of police with their, you know, batons."
In fact, they sent in troops and tanks. Hundreds – maybe thousands – died.

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.
There is nothing in this vast square to remind anybody of the events of 30 years ago – not a statue, not a monument, not even a tiny plaque. The events of June 4, 1989 have been erased from Chinese history.

How weird! You appear to have written a post, almost word for word, identical to that of one of CNN's!

So anyway: here's the original, with links and attribution to the people who did the work, and ya know, the actual photographs:

Tiananmen Square, 30 years later

jusplay4fun wrote:so we can expect that YOU will cite all your quotes from here on, Symm?

Was I there to report those events? Hardly.

Symmetry wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:Tiananmen Square protests; Do not forget:

The enduring image of a lone man confronting Chinese tanks has come to stand for the bloody showdown between thousands of protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square, and hardliners in the Communist Party who ordered in the army.
On June 4, 1989, soldiers surrounding the square started shooting.

Wuerkaixi, one of the student leaders, managed to escape. Thirty years later, banned from China and living in exile, he's still haunted.

"I am a survivor of a massacre," he said. "We just thought they were going to send in a group of police with their, you know, batons."
In fact, they sent in troops and tanks. Hundreds – maybe thousands – died.

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.
There is nothing in this vast square to remind anybody of the events of 30 years ago – not a statue, not a monument, not even a tiny plaque. The events of June 4, 1989 have been erased from Chinese history.

How weird! You appear to have written a post, almost word for word, identical to that of one of CNN's!

So anyway: here's the original, with links and attribution to the people who did the work, and ya know, the actual photographs:

Tiananmen Square, 30 years later

Like it's my fault that I caught you passing off other people's work as your own?

Do you know what clued me in? Take a guess, please...

i was about to search for the quote by Churchill, but I see and read that Mookie beat me to it:

I know you love to post quotes out of context, here's a great one in context:

Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947 wrote:
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…’

For those that want the exact statements by Mookie, one can read up.

And notice that Troll called Symm does not answer the questions posed or discuss the main point, but wants to nitpick who quotes what. Yes, Symm, CNN was there in Beijing 30 years ago. I was not. Were you? I doubt mrsdwk was there; that person was hiding in the shadows, as usual.

because you are a troll?

Symmetry wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:so we can expect that YOU will cite all your quotes from here on, Symm?

Was I there to report those events? Hardly.

Symmetry wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:Tiananmen Square protests; Do not forget:

The enduring image of a lone man confronting Chinese tanks has come to stand for the bloody showdown between thousands of protesters in Beijing's Tiananmen Square, and hardliners in the Communist Party who ordered in the army.
On June 4, 1989, soldiers surrounding the square started shooting.

Wuerkaixi, one of the student leaders, managed to escape. Thirty years later, banned from China and living in exile, he's still haunted.

"I am a survivor of a massacre," he said. "We just thought they were going to send in a group of police with their, you know, batons."
In fact, they sent in troops and tanks. Hundreds – maybe thousands – died.

Posing as tourists, correspondent Elizabeth Palmer and her crew visited Tiananmen Square, still such a sensitive location that visitors have to show ID just to get in.
There is nothing in this vast square to remind anybody of the events of 30 years ago – not a statue, not a monument, not even a tiny plaque. The events of June 4, 1989 have been erased from Chinese history.

How weird! You appear to have written a post, almost word for word, identical to that of one of CNN's!

So anyway: here's the original, with links and attribution to the people who did the work, and ya know, the actual photographs:

Tiananmen Square, 30 years later

Like it's my fault that I caught you passing off other people's work as your own?

Do you know what clued me in? Take a guess, please...

And symm, please avoid use of ellipses. That is so uncool.

Nope- here are some of the ways that you got caught:

It was that you suddenly had a command of language far beyond your capabilities. It made me think "Jp4 is just not capable of crafting that kind of sentence". Maybe as a one off, sure, but a few in a row? That ain't you. You're more the kind of person who would try to use someone else's words to troll people.

The second sign of your plagiarism was of course that you were obviously entirely ignorant of the subject you were plagiarising.

I mean, really, dude, did you really expect to post a thread about this without the iconic picture and have nobody call you out? Mate, it's literally mentioned in the stuff that you copy-pasted as if your own.

You didn't even read your own plagiarised post!

Ellipses, kid...

PUTS ON SUNGLASSES

...are just a sign that you're missing something.

Dukasaur wrote:

mrswdk wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:the repression of Democracy

What do you think democracy is? People in the UK sometimes talk about how the country is the world's 'oldest democracy', and yet most people in the UK feel that their government does not listen to people like them (source - page 17). So what is democracy?

In any case, 'the Tiananmen Square protests were about democracy' is a line trotted out every year in English-language media but isn't actually true. The gathering in Tiananmen Square wasn't one single protest movement protesting any one single issue. It was a lot of different groups of people who had each turned up with various different complaints about the government. Some people were calling for 'more democracy' but the majority of grievances being aired were about official corruption or were people who wanted the government to enact different economic policies. This is pretty well documented if Western journalists could actually be bothered to do their research. Nuance doesn't sell papers though, so none of them do.

Nuances aside, transparency and democracy were common threads running through all the protests.

Nuance? 'Urban dwellers are not properly benefiting from economic reforms' has nothing to do with 'transparency' or 'democracy'.

mrswdk wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:

mrswdk wrote:

jusplay4fun wrote:the repression of Democracy

What do you think democracy is? People in the UK sometimes talk about how the country is the world's 'oldest democracy', and yet most people in the UK feel that their government does not listen to people like them (source - page 17). So what is democracy?

In any case, 'the Tiananmen Square protests were about democracy' is a line trotted out every year in English-language media but isn't actually true. The gathering in Tiananmen Square wasn't one single protest movement protesting any one single issue. It was a lot of different groups of people who had each turned up with various different complaints about the government. Some people were calling for 'more democracy' but the majority of grievances being aired were about official corruption or were people who wanted the government to enact different economic policies. This is pretty well documented if Western journalists could actually be bothered to do their research. Nuance doesn't sell papers though, so none of them do.

Nuances aside, transparency and democracy were common threads running through all the protests.

Nuance? 'Urban dwellers are not properly benefiting from economic reforms' has nothing to do with 'transparency' or 'democracy'.

Over they years I've read, watched, or listened to at least 50 interviews with Tiannanmen survivors. Five of the fifty were just this week, so it's fresh in my mind. I don't think a single one of the fifty said "urban dwellers were not properly benefiting from economic reforms."

Discussing the reasons why they were in the square, the various survivors talked about four separate, but closely-related themes:

• Transparency: The right to see the decision-making process in the government. The right to question the decision-makers and get honest answers.
• End of Censorship: The right to express themselves freely, including but not limited to criticizing the government.
• End of Corruption: The ability to bring complaints against corrupt officials.
• Basic democracy: Self-explanatory.

Here are the Seven Demands published by the student body:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests#Death_of_Hu_Yaobang

Affirm Hu Yaobang's views on democracy and freedom as correct.
Admit that the campaigns against spiritual pollution and bourgeois liberalization had been wrong.
Publish information on the income of state leaders and their family members.
Allow privately run newspapers and stop press censorship.
Increase funding for education and raise intellectuals' pay.
End restrictions on demonstrations in Beijing.
Provide objective coverage of students in official media.

The Tienanmen protest was an integral part of the wave of protests that swept across the communist world:

February 1988 Popular uprisings begin in Armenia and Azerbaijan
April 1988 Open protests begin in Kiev
November 1988 Gorbachev stops censorship in Soviet Union
February 1989 Kosovo miners strike begins the disintegration of Yugoslavia
April 1989 Russian troops massacre protestors in Tiflis. Sympathy for the protestors brings the Russian middle class to the side of the protestors.
May-June 1989 Students occupy Tienanmen
June 4th 1989, Chinese troops massacre student protestors, on the same day that Solidarity wins the first free election in post-communist Poland.
October 1989 Fall of Berlin Wall
November 1989 Velvet Revolution in Prague
December 1989 Romanian Revolution
June 1990 Russia withdraws from Soviet Union and the Comintern is basically dead, although the official end is 1991

Nuances indeed, but the students marching in Peking were part of a worldwide upheaval of resistance to communist dictatorship. Both by the list of demands quoted above and by the timing of events, it's very clear that they were not so different than the students marching in Kiev, in Bucharest, in Prague, in Berlin. Only the government they faced was just a little more savage and brutish than the governments in Kiev, in Bucharest, in Prague, in Berlin.

Dukasaur wrote:Over they years I've read, watched, or listened to at least 50 interviews with Tiannanmen survivors. Five of the fifty were just this week, so it's fresh in my mind. I don't think a single one of the fifty said "urban dwellers were not properly benefiting from economic reforms."

And yet, that is the reason why some urban workers and soldiers supported the protests, and why the government brought in soldiers from the countryside to help end them.

Here are the Seven Demands published by the student body

As your article says, that was a list written by the first group of students who started protesting immediately after the death of Hu Yaobang. They were just one of the many disparate groups of people who turned up to the Tiananmen protests. As your article also says, when the protests were at their peak the issue most commonly being protests by the various organised groups was official corruption.

the students marching in Peking Beijing were part of a worldwide upheaval

They were completely unrelated to anything happening outside the country. A domestic politician had just died and people were showing support for policy reforms he had been implementing since earlier in the 1980s - way before that timeline of yours starts.

Sometimes things happen in one place at the same time as things are also happening in a different place. A civil war broke out in Liberia in 1989 as well.