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Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:20 pm

Surprised to see nobody here talking about the Mattis resignation.

For the record:
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/12/mattis-letter2.pdf

I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, Trump is a lying, cheating dirtbag and it's always nice to see anything that causes him embarrassment.

On the other hand, interventionism is almost always a bad thing. Ending America's pointless adventures in Syria and Afghanistan is the right thing to do.

Since the announcement of the Syria pullout, there has been a swarm of generals, former generals, diplomats, former diplomats, pundits and miscellaneous self-proclaimed experts lining up to condemn the pullout, coalescing of course around Mattis' resignation and other resignations such as McGurk's. If truth could be determined by numbers, they'd certainly be in the right. But they're not. You have to remember that this is the military-industrial complex, these are the people who earn their incomes from perpetuating wars, the people that we have been warned against by thinkers as diverse as Dwight Eisenhower and George Orwell, James Madison and Noam Chomsky, Milton Friedman and Georges Sorel. The Mattises and the McGurks have earned their bread and butter -- a very nice grade of bread and butter -- from coming up with reasons why America should continue to fly around the world, beating the shit out of Third World countries who refuse to kowtow. Now that there is a chance the gravy train might slow down -- definitely not stop, but slow down just a little -- they are closing ranks to protect their jobs.

I hate liars, I hate cheats, I hate blowhards. For all these reasons, I hate Trump, who tells lie after lie from dawn till dusk, who has cheated millions, and who is the hardest-blowing blowhard ever. It would be great if I could just move with the mob and revel in his embarrassment over the Mattis resignation.

Nonetheless, if I am to remain intellectually and morally honest, I have to admit that this time he's doing the right thing. The military-industrial complex that is closing ranks against him are the long-term enemy. For all his wrongs, this time Trump is right, and it would be a shame if he was to back down in the face of the generals.
ā€œā€ŽLife is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.ā€
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby saxitoxin on Sat Dec 22, 2018 3:29 pm

Dukasaur wrote:Surprised to see nobody here talking about the Mattis resignation.

For the record:
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/12/mattis-letter2.pdf

I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, Trump is a lying, cheating dirtbag and it's always nice to see anything that causes him embarrassment.

On the other hand, interventionism is almost always a bad thing. Ending America's pointless adventures in Syria and Afghanistan is the right thing to do.

Since the announcement of the Syria pullout, there has been a swarm of generals, former generals, diplomats, former diplomats, pundits and miscellaneous self-proclaimed experts lining up to condemn the pullout, coalescing of course around Mattis' resignation and other resignations such as McGurk's. If truth could be determined by numbers, they'd certainly be in the right. But they're not. You have to remember that this is the military-industrial complex, these are the people who earn their incomes from perpetuating wars, the people that we have been warned against by thinkers as diverse as Dwight Eisenhower and George Orwell, James Madison and Noam Chomsky, Milton Friedman and Georges Sorel. The Mattises and the McGurks have earned their bread and butter -- a very nice grade of bread and butter -- from coming up with reasons why America should continue to fly around the world, beating the shit out of Third World countries who refuse to kowtow. Now that there is a chance the gravy train might slow down -- definitely not stop, but slow down just a little -- they are closing ranks to protect their jobs.

I hate liars, I hate cheats, I hate blowhards. For all these reasons, I hate Trump, who tells lie after lie from dawn till dusk, who has cheated millions, and who is the hardest-blowing blowhard ever. It would be great if I could just move with the mob and revel in his embarrassment over the Mattis resignation.

Nonetheless, if I am to remain intellectually and morally honest, I have to admit that this time he's doing the right thing. The military-industrial complex that is closing ranks against him are the long-term enemy. For all his wrongs, this time Trump is right, and it would be a shame if he was to back down in the face of the generals.


Trump is your broccoli. You agree it's good for you but you still don't like it;
- You liked Trump ending the Trans Pacific Partnership
- You liked Trump pulling U.S. troops out of Syria
etc., etc.

Rationally, you like Trump. Emotionally, you don't like Trump.

Right now you are being ruled by emotion. This is the way the lying press - owned by billionaire plutocrats like Michael Bloomberg and John Stankey - use their noise machines to churn up endless fake news* designed to make Trump look bad win public support. They can turn black into white and up into down.

Let reason prevail.

* before anyone asks for an example see here and then here and here and here
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby riskllama on Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:22 pm

you didn't ask why he is pulling out, duk. i am reasonably certain it's not for any of the right reasons.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby HitRed on Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:30 pm

I expected the news media would report:

US troops would be out of danger
US media would be out of danger from covering the conflict
This would save everyone a lot of money

I was wrong.

---

I am sure:

the US will leave Syria and likely/hopefully Afghanistan.
that Assad will kill anyone that he has too to retake Syria.
Afghanistan will fall into the abyss.

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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby HitRed on Sat Dec 22, 2018 4:43 pm

The media is praising Mad Dog Mattis for following his personal conscience. So did Trump. He again is the guy standing alone. Congressional leaders, military leaders, media and world leaders mostly think he is wrong here. Time after time he stands alone.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby riskllama on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:27 pm

HitRed wrote:The media is praising Mad Dog Mattis for following his personal conscience. So did Trump. He again is the guy standing alone. Congressional leaders, military leaders, media and world leaders mostly think he is wrong here. Time after time he stands alone.


riskllama wrote:you didn't ask why he is pulling out, duk. i am reasonably certain it's not for any of the right reasons.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby HitRed on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:50 pm

riskllama wrote:
HitRed wrote:The media is praising Mad Dog Mattis for following his personal conscience. So did Trump. He again is the guy standing alone. Congressional leaders, military leaders, media and world leaders mostly think he is wrong here. Time after time he stands alone.


riskllama wrote:you didn't ask why he is pulling out, duk. i am reasonably certain it's not for any of the right reasons.


No oil! :lol:
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby armati on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:54 pm

Trump’s accomplishments…..
Ponder this list…. (Some are solely due to Trump; others not so much. But are you listening too much to left-wing bias which is ubiquitous?)

MORE AMERICANS WORKING NOW THAN EVER BEFORE IN OUR HISTORY
250K JOBS ADDED IN OCTOBER
Manufacturing Confidence at an ALL TIME HIGH
Construction Jobs up more than 300K compared to last year
Food Stamp usage declines for 8 straight months
Middle Class income rises to HIGHEST on record
Consumer Confidence 18 YEAR HIGH
America is now the worlds largest oil producer
Fastest growing pace in 14 years for manufacturers
BLACK UNEMPLOYMENT RECORD LOW
Jobless claims lowest level since 1969
Trump secures 2026 World Cup for the USA
Consumer Confidence Highest in 18 years
Black Business Ownership Under Trump JUMPS 400 PERCENT in ONE YEAR
Youth Unemployment Hits 52 Year Low
Black Support for Trump DOUBLES to 29 percent
RECORD Number of Employed – 63 Percent labor participation
Worker pay rate hits highest level since 2008
Black and Hispanic Unemployment rates hit record low in April
Business Investments up 39 Percent Due to Tax Cuts
April 2018 Best Month in HISTORY for Budget according to CBO
Food Stamp Usage Drops Half Million in Single Month
Highest Ever Manufacturer Optimism over 94 Percent
Unemployment claims have fallen to a 45-year low
Trump Economy Explodes Record Number of Americans Employed Stocks Soar
FEB JOBS BLOWOUT 313K
GREAT AGAIN Household Net Worth Pushes Further Into Record Territory
U.S. Consumer Confidence Is at 17-Year High
US homebuilding permits soar to highest level since 2007
Economy to grow at 5.4% rate in first quarter
Roaring: Economic Optimism Index hits 13-year high, credit to tax cuts
U.S. jobless claims drop to near 45-year low
Wages jump to highest level since 2009 – up 2.9%
U.S. Oil Production Tops 10 Million Barrels A Day, First Time Since 1970
Trump Decreases Debt to GDP Ratio – First Time in Over 50 Years!
Jobless claims drop to lowest level in nearly 45 years
Apple to Invest $350 BILLION in US citing Trump Tax Plan
Utilities cutting rates, cite benefits of Trump tax reform
Over 100 companies giving ā€˜Trump Bonuses’ after tax victory
Black unemployment rate falls to record low
Trump adds 184,000 manufacturing jobs and continues growth trend
Manufacturing in the U.S. Just Accelerated to Its Best Year Since 2004
Nikki Haley negotiates $285M cut in ā€˜bloated’ UN budget
WIC Welfare Participation Hits 17-Year Low
U.S. home sales hit 11-year high
Manufacturing Optimism Reaches Another All-Time High – 94.6%
Economy adds 228K jobs in November
Mining up 28.6% – Leads the Nation in Growth
Broadcom will move back to U.S. — and bring tax money with it
US private sector added 235,000 jobs in Oct – Beats Expectations
Consumer confidence highest level since December 2000
Q3 GDP at 3 Percent – Beats Expectations
Ivanka Trump creates new World Bank initiative to foster Entrepreneurship among Women
Consumer Sentiment in U.S. Surges to 13-Year High
63.1%: Participation Rate Reaches Trump-Era High
Unemployment down to 4.2, wages rise .5%
New entrants from outside the labor market made up 3.2
U.S. Factories Expanding at 13 Year high
Dow posting first eight-quarter winning streak in 20 years
Home builder confidence at 12-year high
Manufacturer confidence at a 20-year high
Tech giants pledge millions to Trump initiative
Q2 GDP up 3.1%
Sales of new U.S. homes rebounded in August
Federal Reserve: Household Wealth in America at record high of $1.7 trillion – Rising property values and Financial gain
Surging stock market powers U.S. wealth to $96.2 trillion
Food Stamp Usage Has Fallen Every Month Under Trump
Median Incomes Climbing for First Time Since 2007
Trump has signed a $15 billion relief package for Texas in the wake of Hurricane Harvey
Jobless claims drop to 240,000 – hottest streak in 43 years
U.S. Consumer Sentiment Rose in August
Recovery Is Finally Trickling Down to Least-Educated Workers
U.S. Job Satisfaction Highest Level Since 2005
American manufacturing expanded in August at fastest pace in six years
Donald Trump Ends Obama Effort to Waive Work Requirements for Welfare
Consumer confidence strengthens in August, second-highest level since late 2000
President Trump Cuts More US Debt for a Longer Period of Time Than Any President
Pennsylvania coal company to open a SECOND coal mine
Summer Youth Unemployment Falls, Level Since 1969
In Trump era, American corporations are seeing their best earnings in 13 years
US trade deficit narrows as exports hit 2-1/2-year high
Milestone for Trump: 1 million new jobs in six months
National unemployment rate at 4.3% (lowest it’s been in 16 years)
13,000 jobs being created in WI – largest job announcement in WI history (Foxconn)
Black Unemployment, Lowest Level in 17 Years
Gas prices at a 12-year low
Some states are experiencing their lowest unemployment rates in their histories
Trump Announces $200 Million in Apprenticeship Funding
U.S. has record 6 million job openings, 6.8 million Americans are looking for jobs
CEO confidence highest since 2014
U.S. jobless rate falls to lowest level in 16 years
Trump signs bills that helps Veterans and Police officers by giving them Priority and Training
Government spending as percentage of GDP down
1000s of jobs being created through pact with Saudi Arabia
Executive Order on the Establishment of the American Technology Council
USA’s small business confidence is spurring a hiring and spending spree
Alibaba Takes First Step To Fulfilling Jack Ma And President Trump’s ā€˜One Million U.S. Jobs’ Promise
Slashing job-killing regulations left and right
Creating thousands of more jobs for immigration officers and border patrol
Signed a resolution encouraging women in entrepreneurship and STEM
Executive ordered all federal agencies to create task forces to cut regulations that hurt the economy
US Manufacturing Index at a 33-year high
Coal Miners are WINNING. Cut Regulations/Create Jobs/New Plant
US Economic Confidence Surges To Highest Level Ever Recorded By Gallup

Some of these NEVER would have happened under Hillary
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby armati on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:55 pm

Trump Signs Korean Trade Deal
Trump Blocks Chinese Purchase of Qualcomm due to National Security
TRUMP SIGNS TARIFF ORDER ON STEEL AND ALUMINUM
Trump Slaps 30% Tariffs on Solar Panels imported from China
Japan Freezes North Korea’s Assets after Trump’s Visit
U.S. Trade Deficit falls to 11-month low
Trump Fights for ā€˜America First’ as 4th Round of NAFTA Negotiations End
Crude Oil Shipment to India Highlights Expanding Energy Partnership
Trump Blocks China from buying Semi-Conductor company, Lattice
Crude oil shipment from Texas opens new vistas in India-U.S. ties
Argentina agrees to allow first U.S. pork imports in 25 years
Trump orders probe of China’s intellectual property practices
New memorandum to protect American IPs from China – Potentially save Billions of dollars and millions in jobs
Coal exports up 60%
China opens rice market for US exports for first time ever
U.S. makes final finding rebar exports from Taiwan
Renegotiating NAFTA with Canada and Mexico in order to make better trade deals – May terminate
United States and Mexico finalize sugar trade deal
First U.S. Natural Gas Shipped to Poland
Signed an Arms Deal worth more than $350 billion and various other investment agreements with Saudi Arabia
China, U.S. reach trade agreement on beef, poultry and natural gas
Trump orders a study on abuses of U.S. trade agreements – WTO
Trump slaps tariffs on Canadian lumber imports
Increased tariffs on Canadian lumber by 20% (worth $1 billion)
China buys more U.S. coal, sends to North Korea
Trans Pacific Partnership (TPP) TERMINATED
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby armati on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:55 pm

What about Trump’s record:

Trump signs VA Mission Act
Enhancing Veteran Care Act
VA seeks partnerships to build and improve health-care facilities
VA announces Veterans Coordinated Access & Rewarding Experiences Act
VA, Ginnie Mae create task force to address mortgage refinancing issues
Telemedicine: An important tool for Veterans health
Trump Signs Bill to Streamline VA Disability Claims Appeals Process
Trump signs ā€˜Forever GI Bill,’ boosting aid to student vets
VA expands Tele-Health access
VA fires more than 500 feds under Trump, even before new accountability law
Trump signs VA accountability act into law, promises better care for veterans
Trump Administration Streamlines Veteran Medical Records
White House to launch veterans’ complaint hotline
Accountability and Whistleblower Protection at VA
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby armati on Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:57 pm

Thses were from posts at another site I frequent, I havnt checked them out.

I did see a mention of the americns defeating isis in Syria.

Complete bs so there could be more bs in the lists.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby armati on Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:34 pm

We wont know for awhile if these "pull outs" are really going to happen or not for awhile(60-100 days), there is also a chance they could be redeployed to the Ukraine as Poroshenko seems to be pushing war and wants nato support.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby mrswdk on Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:43 pm

riskllama wrote:you didn't ask why he is pulling out, duk. i am reasonably certain it's not for any of the right reasons.


llama never pulls out.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby riskllama on Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:12 pm

mrswdk wrote:
riskllama wrote:you didn't ask why he is pulling out, duk. i am reasonably certain it's not for any of the right reasons.


llama never pulls out.


i never seem to come up w/a good enough reason...*shrugs*
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Dec 22, 2018 9:40 pm

armati wrote:Thses were from posts at another site I frequent, I havnt checked them out.

I did see a mention of the americns defeating isis in Syria.

Complete bs so there could be more bs in the lists.


Yeah, it's mostly BS.

About 80% of the list just reflects the fact that the U.S. economy is booming. The boom began long before Trump and he's just been riding the wave. It has nothing to do with him.

Most of the things not directly related to the boom are equally BS. For instance, "Signed an Arms Deal worth more than $350 billion and various other investment agreements with Saudi Arabia". A: selling arms to a criminal dictatorship is nothing to be proud of and B: the U.S. has always sold arms to the Saudis, so even if it was something to be proud of, it's nothing new.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby Dukasaur on Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:23 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Dukasaur wrote:Surprised to see nobody here talking about the Mattis resignation.

For the record:
https://d3i6fh83elv35t.cloudfront.net/static/2018/12/mattis-letter2.pdf

I'm of two minds here. On the one hand, Trump is a lying, cheating dirtbag and it's always nice to see anything that causes him embarrassment.

On the other hand, interventionism is almost always a bad thing. Ending America's pointless adventures in Syria and Afghanistan is the right thing to do.

Since the announcement of the Syria pullout, there has been a swarm of generals, former generals, diplomats, former diplomats, pundits and miscellaneous self-proclaimed experts lining up to condemn the pullout, coalescing of course around Mattis' resignation and other resignations such as McGurk's. If truth could be determined by numbers, they'd certainly be in the right. But they're not. You have to remember that this is the military-industrial complex, these are the people who earn their incomes from perpetuating wars, the people that we have been warned against by thinkers as diverse as Dwight Eisenhower and George Orwell, James Madison and Noam Chomsky, Milton Friedman and Georges Sorel. The Mattises and the McGurks have earned their bread and butter -- a very nice grade of bread and butter -- from coming up with reasons why America should continue to fly around the world, beating the shit out of Third World countries who refuse to kowtow. Now that there is a chance the gravy train might slow down -- definitely not stop, but slow down just a little -- they are closing ranks to protect their jobs.

I hate liars, I hate cheats, I hate blowhards. For all these reasons, I hate Trump, who tells lie after lie from dawn till dusk, who has cheated millions, and who is the hardest-blowing blowhard ever. It would be great if I could just move with the mob and revel in his embarrassment over the Mattis resignation.

Nonetheless, if I am to remain intellectually and morally honest, I have to admit that this time he's doing the right thing. The military-industrial complex that is closing ranks against him are the long-term enemy. For all his wrongs, this time Trump is right, and it would be a shame if he was to back down in the face of the generals.


Trump is your broccoli. You agree it's good for you but you still don't like it;
- You liked Trump ending the Trans Pacific Partnership
- You liked Trump pulling U.S. troops out of Syria
etc., etc.

Rationally, you like Trump. Emotionally, you don't like Trump.

You may call it 'emotion', but I call it 'respect for ethics.' If ethics is emotionalism, then so be it, call me emotional.

I've never denied that I agree with plenty of Trump's policies. There's plenty of others that I don't agree with. But neither the policy areas where I agree with him nor the policy areas where I disagree with him are the really decisive things.

The first absolute unforgivable is the way he has elevated lying to a completely new level. All politicians lie, always have and always will. But in the past, politicians who got caught in a whopper have always had the decency to be ashamed or at least pretend to be ashamed. They apologize, issue corrections, walk back their lies, whatever. By showing remorse when they get caught lying, politician have kept at least some semblance of respect for the truth. Trump is the first major political character who shows not the slightest shred of remorse when he gets caught lying. He doubles down and repeats the same false statement 100 times. Whether it's something like saying he only took a small loan from his father, or that Micheal Flynn didn't negotiate with the Russians, or that the tax bill didn't benefit him personally, he just runs with it despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. The total disregard for truth will be Trumps most lasting legacy. Policies come and policies go, but the fact the politicians of the future will no longer even show a passing respect for the truth is probably the end of any meaning to the term "democracy" and you can lay it squarely at Trump's feet.

The second thing that is absolutely unforgivable is that he has exploited the peculiarities of the American legal system to build an entire empire on a policy of ripping off contractors. This article (in Fortune, hardly a left-wing rag) describes in detail how it works. Basically, in most civilized countries, when you sue someone for non-payment, the loser pays the legal costs for both. The U.S. is pretty much unique in that it doesn't allow contractors who sue for their money to recover their legal costs. Thus, when Trump builds a hotel, agrees to pay $100,000 to a carpet installer and then only pays him $70,000, he does it in the cynical knowledge that the installer will decide to not bother suing for the missing $30,000 because legal costs would eat up the benefit of the lawsuit. Despite this, most American businesses choose to operate responsibly. Once again, though, now that Trump has made famous a policy of building an empire by ripping off contractors, others will follow suit. Just as his getting away with constant lying will change the political landscape forever, his getting away with constant thieving will change the business landscape forever.

He really is a despicable cretin. The fact that I agree with some of the policies of his administration doesn't change that.

Anyway, he deserves support for withdrawing from the imperialist adventure in Syria, and if he holds strong and doesn't back down in the face of the military-industrial complex, I will have at least one thing to respect him for.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby riskllama on Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:56 pm

worst. potus. ever.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby karel on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:35 pm

we don't belong over there,glad we leaving them hell holes
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby HitRed on Mon Dec 24, 2018 1:45 pm

If you haven't won over the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan in 17 years then you won't. - HitRed
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:07 pm

HitRed wrote:If you haven't won over the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan in 17 years then you won't. - HitRed


Uh it has to do with Syria, not Afghanistan.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby HitRed on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:11 pm

tzor wrote:
HitRed wrote:If you haven't won over the hearts and minds of the people of Afghanistan in 17 years then you won't. - HitRed


Uh it has to do with Syria, not Afghanistan.


Mattis was upset about the US pulling out of Syria and 1/2 our troops out of Afghanistan. Both belong in this thread.

Ending America's pointless adventures in Syria and Afghanistan is the right thing to do. - Opening thread by Duka.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby tzor on Mon Dec 24, 2018 2:28 pm

HitRed wrote:Mattis was upset about the US pulling out of Syria and 1/2 our troops out of Afghanistan. Both belong in this thread.

Ending America's pointless adventures in Syria and Afghanistan is the right thing to do. - Opening thread by Duka.


"Trump's decision to withdraw from Syria was a major contributing factor to Mattis' departure, and was part of their discussion in the 45-minute conversation on Thursday, as the two men aired their differences, officials told Reuters."

It's the Neocons in Washington who are mostly upset about Afghanistan, not Mattis. Honestly, Russia has been there before and has learned that lesson well. China might think about it but that's a win'win for us if they do.

Syria, on the other hand, is wanted by everybody. The genocide of the Kurds is almost guaranteed at this point.
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Re: Nobody talking about Mattis?

Postby armati on Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:00 pm

Hezbollah and the Syrian army have said they will protect the Kurds.

Im certain an agreement will be worked out just as with the ypg and the sdf.
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