Conquer Club

Investing in the future technologies pays off. China, Japan, Europe and even Russia does it, but US doesn't. Will US pay the price for that negligence?

China has the largest high-speed railway in the world, with 15,500 miles of track and most major cities covered by the network.
I recently took China's fastest "G" train from Beijing to the northwestern city of Xi'an, which cuts an 11-hour journey — roughly the distance between New York and Chicago — to 4.5 hours.
I found the experience delightful, with relatively cheap tickets, painless security, comfortable seats, air-conditioned cabins, and plenty of legroom.
It left me thinking about how far behind US infrastructure has become, when most comparable journeys still require expensive and tiring air travel.

I rode China's superfast bullet train that could go from New York to Chicago in 4.5 hours — and it shows how far behind the US really is

TL;DR
Depends on where you are, and which part of the US you’re talking about. NYC is 5 hours behind London, but Honolulu is 11 hours beind. Meanwhile Beijing is a full 12 hours ahead of Detroit, and 15 hours ahead of Seattle.

Now if you’re in South America, you may in some instances actually be behind the US, proving that it is possible for the US to get ahead. In fact, parts of the US are ahead of other parts, which is why Southerners think they’re so much better than Californians. That also has to do with religion and politics (just trying to keep this thread On Topic, given the forum we’re in), but we can save that for another day.

Serbia wrote:Southerners think they’re so much better than Californians.

they aren't

mookiemcgee wrote:

Serbia wrote:Southerners think they’re so much better than Californians.

they aren't

But they ARE ahead of you. Because Science.

Serbia wrote:

mookiemcgee wrote:

Serbia wrote:Southerners think they’re so much better than Californians.

they aren't

But they ARE ahead of you. Because Science.

Maybe, but Iceland is WAY ahead of the South.

What a useless comparison. Unless the u.s. population somehow skyrockets and rivals China's 25+ megacities (or whatever the number actually is) there's no reason for a hyper fast train to the other side of the country.

Also Serbia is obviously right.

mookiemcgee wrote:

Serbia wrote:

mookiemcgee wrote:

Serbia wrote:Southerners think they’re so much better than Californians.

they aren't

But they ARE ahead of you. Because Science.

Maybe, but Iceland is WAY ahead of the South.

I should know, I’ve been to both the South and Iceland.

I guess that means Serbia is way behind the USA and China?

How far behind the US really is?

mookiemcgee wrote:I guess that means Serbia is way behind the USA and China?

No. Serbia is behind China by 6 hours, yet ahead of Boston by 6 hours. So Serbia is pretty much awesome because of the poetic 6s.

Are you from the Southern part of California? Might explain your reasoning some.

Dukasaur wrote:

Judging from the video and the actual numbers if US copies what Canada is doing(especially in healthcare and education) the things will correct it self in 20-30 years.
Button line... Trumps tax reform is crap. Richer become even more rich, middle class will start to fall behind, but the averages will be the same.

I have quite orthodox view on how to determine if a country is doing good or not...
How big is the percentage of population that is middle class? The bigger the better the country is doing.

How far behind the US really is?

- Sacha Baron Cohen

GoranZ wrote:Animated map that shows how radically a high-speed train system would improve travel in the US

I love how the dakotas, Montana and wyoming never see any high speed rail ever according to the video. Karel is gonna have to keep catching the bus!

GoranZ wrote:Animated map that shows how radically a high-speed train system would improve travel in the US

It's a wonderful idea ... in theory. But you are going to need far more than 67%.

There is a vast difference between Europe and the US and it's not just distance (let's face it, the entire European Continent is about the size of the east coast of the US and we are talking cross continent here which is vastly longer distances) but about the love of the automobile. Getting there is only half the problem; getting around once you get there is the other half. There are other things involved as well but the bottom line is that it is going to be very difficult to get a passenger rail system to be profitable in the US (in fact it never was). Most of the older railroads were built upon the backs of freight cargo and they died with the decision of the federal government to assist those veterans coming back from the European part of WWII who maintained the truck supply system. Using a vague excuse of national security and the desire for a whole lot of "runways" to land nuclear bomb carrying bombers they created the Eisenhower Interstate System which basically killed commercial freight.

High speed rail would basically form a similar problem to hub and spoke airport designs. With rare exceptions, (Etihad Airways is a good example of a hub and spoke system airline) this has been put aside by the airlines because the annoyances of having to go to the spoke in the first place (along with connecting flights) is more than having a slower and smaller place going directly from point A to point B. Now the rail system isn't a point to point system either so it's not a direct alternative to high speed rail lines, but rail still has to compete with air.

This is all before the necessary cost to implement the tracks. You have to get all new right of ways and whole new track infrastructure since the existing rail system is basically designed for freight because that is where the money is. When you add government it becomes a money pit.

Just one element of this would be CASHR(California High-Speed Rail) ... approved in 2008, started in 2015 and the first segment won't be finished until 2027 with the first phase in 2033.

Using a base flying off the seat of my pants calculation, the proposal would be of an order of timescale as that of building pyramids and medieval cathedral construction.

mookiemcgee wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Animated map that shows how radically a high-speed train system would improve travel in the US

I love how the dakotas, Montana and wyoming never see any high speed rail ever according to the video. Karel is gonna have to keep catching the bus!

You need people to ride the train, there are less people in those states combined than most of the higher density states.

2dimes wrote:

mookiemcgee wrote:

GoranZ wrote:Animated map that shows how radically a high-speed train system would improve travel in the US

I love how the dakotas, Montana and wyoming never see any high speed rail ever according to the video. Karel is gonna have to keep catching the bus!

You need people to ride the train, there are less people in those states combined than most of the higher density states.

Oh I completely understand the why, just think it's funny.

Interesting though that no one ever talks about high speed trains for moving product rather than people. In the current system passenger trains make up a small percentage of total trains. I guess it's a weight/cost thing that prevents high speed for freight as even being part of the conversation?

One of the problems with the system is that the track owners give priority to freight, so the Amtrak passenger trains are often hours late. As a passenger, the other no-no for me is that trains often cost more than planes. I went from Salt lake City to Oakland when I was loooking for somewhere to live in CA some while ago. The train was five hours late at the beginning, and about 12 by the end. The fare (not sleeper fare) was bout the same as an air fare, and if you wanted a sleeper it was stupidly expensive. Train was nice though.

mookiemcgee wrote:Interesting though that no one ever talks about high speed trains for moving product rather than people. In the current system passenger trains make up a small percentage of total trains. I guess it's a weight/cost thing that prevents high speed for freight as even being part of the conversation?

I wouldn't say that. Gordon Danby (who really invented the original Mag Lev system that eventually wound up in Japan) Son's next generation Mag Lev system is first and foremost designed for high speed freight transport.

Original proposal in 2009
2011 article
This year as a part of the 555 Epcal purchase.

@tzor But China has 25.000 km of high-speed railway lines. EU has 10.000 km less then China. And Chinese are building more then what EU currently has atm.
If Chinese can do it, US should also be able to do the same... Not to mention US size is comparable to the Chinese.

China is a strange nation at times and it's probably illogical to compare other nations to it because of that. There are whole cities that have been built that are unoccupied. The reason is simple ... construction projects give prestige to local officials. I'm going to guess that these lines are never going to make a profit. There was an article on the Financial Times, but it's behind a paywall. Here is one from ECNS China high speed rail: lucrative in east, loss-making in center and west: "The report said many high-speed rail lines connecting major cities in the central and western regions continue to lose money, and some are far from breaking even."

So in short if you solve the right of way issues, there is a good argument for a EU style design, which is the East Coast corridor. A West Coast corridor is less feasible but possible. Intercontinental systems are not going to get the necessary investment.