Conquer Club

For those who believe in Christianity:

In all the Bible stuff about the Garden of Eden, why is Satan the bad guy for getting Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge? Like, surely if God is trying to keep humans ignorant while Satan is trying to educate them then Satan is the good guy?

Or is the Bible saying that greater authorities should control the flow of information to those they govern, and that it is wrong (perhaps even harmful) for the governed to be shown all the unfiltered facts of the world around them?

Prometheus was such a great hero.

Dukasaur wrote:

Duk's linking of this video illustrates the point where the ironic becomes the offensive.

mrswdk wrote:For those who believe in Christianity:

In all the Bible stuff about the Garden of Eden, why is Satan the bad guy for getting Eve to eat from the Tree of Knowledge? Like, surely if God is trying to keep humans ignorant while Satan is trying to educate them then Satan is the good guy?

Or is the Bible saying that greater authorities should control the flow of information to those they govern, and that it is wrong (perhaps even harmful) for the governed to be shown all the unfiltered facts of the world around them?

We've already had this discussion (although AoG was the one who posted the question). Basically, the fundamental sin that all cultures around the world agree on is Hubris.

Both sides of this debate agree Hubris is a crime. The Christians say "who do you think you are, telling God what to do?" and the atheists say "who does God think he is, telling us what to do?"

It all comes down to hubris and arrogance, the two most repulsive traits in any human being.

I never understood how they were supposed to know it was wrong before eating the fruit which made them know right from wrong...

didn't God clearly state "the rules"?
*shrugs*

jonesthecurl wrote:I never understood how they were supposed to know it was wrong before eating the fruit which made them know right from wrong...

He told them. They were TOLD!

But how were they supposed to know it was wrong to disobey?

jonesthecurl wrote:But how were they supposed to know it was wrong to disobey?

It's the core statement of religion. They weren't supposed to know anything. Knowing is called science. Religion is a state of believing without any evidence, and that's the whole point of the story. It sets up everything that is to come after. "Believe, Obey, and DO NOT ask impertinent questions."

They didn't have knowledge of good or evil, but they had a choice between the words of God and the words of the Serpent. They chose the words of the Serpent (who did apparently have knowledge of evil). After they had knowledge of good and evil, they each tried to deflect blame (Adam blamed his wife and Eve blamed the serpent).

However, your entire question misses a crucial point because of thousands of years of Christian theology. There is no sin mentioned in the Genesis account. Sin was only ascribed to that action later. Rather, there was an account of "you didn't listen to me so you are getting punished". They weren't being punished for sin per se (because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil) but for disobedience.

The point of the story is not "sin is bad" but rather that "disobedience is sin".

He should have never let them just stroll out of that fancy-ass Eden resort. He should have held them until the cops showed up. A little jail time would have scared those kids straight.

The serpent was bad because if it were not for his deceiving them into thinking they would be equal to God by eating from the tree of knowledge. They could have remained in the garden naked and innocent.

DoomYoshi wrote:There is no sin mentioned in the Genesis account. Sin was only ascribed to that action later. Rather, there was an account of "you didn't listen to me so you are getting punished". They weren't being punished for sin per se (because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil) but for disobedience.

The point of the story is not "sin is bad" but rather that "disobedience is sin".

As you say disobedience was not sin, but it got them kicked out of Eden and seperated from the tree of knowledge and more importantly the tree of life.

Sin was not mentioned until Cain became so angry with his brother that he was scowling.

Then God asked him why he was angry and warned him to do well, asking a leading question, and finally warned him, "If you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door and it's desire is for you. But you must master it."

He did not and instead he became possessed by it.

I think God had a fetish and wanted to witness some incest. I mean, Adam and Eve were the first two human beings, right? Therefor, their kids would have had to bang each other, thus, we're all related in some form another.

God is a sick and cruel (being).

DoomYoshi wrote:They didn't have knowledge of good or evil, but they had a choice between the words of God and the words of the Serpent. They chose the words of the Serpent (who did apparently have knowledge of evil). After they had knowledge of good and evil, they each tried to deflect blame (Adam blamed his wife and Eve blamed the serpent).

However, your entire question misses a crucial point because of thousands of years of Christian theology. There is no sin mentioned in the Genesis account. Sin was only ascribed to that action later. Rather, there was an account of "you didn't listen to me so you are getting punished". They weren't being punished for sin per se (because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil) but for disobedience.

The point of the story is not "sin is bad" but rather that "disobedience is sin".

So they were supposed to know what "sin" was before they could distinguish good from evil?

Dukasaur wrote:

jonesthecurl wrote:But how were they supposed to know it was wrong to disobey?

It's the core statement of religion. They weren't supposed to know anything. Knowing is called science. Religion is a state of believing without any evidence ""

-------Like being a liberal or a CNN reporter... ...I think it wasn't right or wrong...More than it was Adam and Eve being able to go from being in their birthday suit........to seeing each other as having different parts for the 1st time...THEN IT WAS PARTY TIME,which would lead to more humans for God to take care of...When they ate the apple...God was probably thinking,"Damn myself,now I'll have to take care of billions of these little bastards. ... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

DoomYoshi wrote:However, your entire question misses a crucial point because of thousands of years of Christian theology. There is no sin mentioned in the Genesis account.

There was no sin mentioned in my OP.

They weren't being punished for sin per se (because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil) but for disobedience.

The point of the story is not "sin is bad" but rather that "disobedience is sin".

My original question still stands. Why is God (who hid knowledge) the good guy and Satan (who gave knowledge) the bad guy? Making a rule means God is the good guy?

jonesthecurl wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:They didn't have knowledge of good or evil, but they had a choice between the words of God and the words of the Serpent. They chose the words of the Serpent (who did apparently have knowledge of evil). After they had knowledge of good and evil, they each tried to deflect blame (Adam blamed his wife and Eve blamed the serpent).

However, your entire question misses a crucial point because of thousands of years of Christian theology. There is no sin mentioned in the Genesis account. Sin was only ascribed to that action later. Rather, there was an account of "you didn't listen to me so you are getting punished". They weren't being punished for sin per se (because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil) but for disobedience.

The point of the story is not "sin is bad" but rather that "disobedience is sin".

So they were supposed to know what "sin" was before they could distinguish good from evil?

No, they were about to learn what sin was by doing it. Ignorance to the law is no exception. Especially for people who had a personal relationship with the creator and knew they could trust him.

mrswdk wrote:

DoomYoshi wrote:However, your entire question misses a crucial point because of thousands of years of Christian theology. There is no sin mentioned in the Genesis account.

There was no sin mentioned in my OP.

They weren't being punished for sin per se (because they didn't have knowledge of good and evil) but for disobedience.

The point of the story is not "sin is bad" but rather that "disobedience is sin".

My original question still stands. Why is God (who hid knowledge) the good guy and Satan (who gave knowledge) the bad guy? Making a rule means God is the good guy?

That statement was addressed to you. Satan didn't actually give knowledge. He gave fake news. All the knowledge was God's, who also gave science and understanding to man (he let him name all the animals for example). It's not like this is knowledge of physics or math we are talking about. It wasn't agricultural or meteorological or useful knowledge. It's knowledge of good and evil, the squishy philosophies. The evil is things like censorship and political correctness.

DoomYoshi wrote:That statement was addressed to you. Satan didn't actually give knowledge. He gave fake news. All the knowledge was God's, who also gave science and understanding to man (he let him name all the animals for example). It's not like this is knowledge of physics or math we are talking about. It wasn't agricultural or meteorological or useful knowledge. It's knowledge of good and evil, the squishy philosophies. The evil is things like censorship and political correctness.

Censorship like when God forbade Adam and Eve to learn about good and evil.

-----You asked why is satan wrong.....Because,like Adam and Eve...God also created satan,who was jealous of humans...But most of all...God made satan,Adam, and Eve, so that makes God the good guy...Because he is numero ...uno...God brought all 3 into this world,God can take them out, but will most likely let some lower angel do it for him,because, he is numero uno... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...

Sophia....Are you familiar??

Almost all Gnostic systems of the Syrian or Egyptian type taught that the universe began with an original, unknowable God, referred to as the Parent or Bythos, or as the Monad by Monoimus. From this initial unitary beginning, the One spontaneously emanated further Aeons, being pairs of progressively 'lesser' beings in sequence. Together with the source from which they emanate they form the Pleroma, or fullness, of God, and thus should not be seen as distinct from the divine, but symbolic abstractions of the divine nature. The transition from the immaterial to the material, from the noumenal to the sensible, is brought about by a flaw, or a passion, or a sin, in one of the Aeons.

In most versions of the Gnostic mythos, it is Sophia who brings about this instability in the Pleroma, in turn bringing about the creation of materiality. According to some Gnostic texts, the crisis occurs as a result of Sophia trying to emanate without her syzygy or, in another tradition, because she tries to breach the barrier between herself and the unknowable Bythos. After cataclysmically falling from the Pleroma, Sophia's fear and anguish of losing her life (just as she lost the light of the One) causes confusion and longing to return to it. Because of these longings, matter (Greek: hylē, ὕλη) and soul (Greek: psychē, ψυχή) accidentally come into existence. The creation of the Demiurge (also known as Yaldabaoth, "Son of Chaos") is also a mistake made during this exile. The Demiurge proceeds to create the physical world in which we live, ignorant of Sophia, who nevertheless manages to infuse some spiritual spark or pneuma into his creation.

In the Pistis Sophia, Christ is sent from the Godhead in order to bring Sophia back into the fullness (Pleroma). Christ enables her to again see the light, bringing her knowledge of the spirit (Greek: pneuma, πνευμα). Christ is then sent to earth in the form of the man Jesus to give men the Gnosis needed to rescue themselves from the physical world and return to the spiritual world. In Gnosticism, the Gospel story of Jesus is itself allegorical: it is the Outer Mystery, used as an introduction to Gnosis, rather than being literally true in a historical context. For the Gnostics, the drama of the redemption of the Sophia through Christ or the Logos is the central drama of the universe. The Sophia resides in all of us as the Divine Spark.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophia_(Gnosticism)

First and I don't know why DoomYoshi is not sharing this..

Satan did not really show up in the bible until Chronicles? He only really got rolling when he shows up in Job. God asks, "Where were you?" He says, "Oh roaming about the earth." So... wanna make a bet?

Second it's not a matter of teaching you to blindly obey people. It's more about warning that you should choose to do the right thing or sin will ruin everything. Many church leaders for different reasons can't be trusted but that is neither supported or opposed by the serpent tricking Adam and Eve into gaining knowledge.

They were innocent like children. You tell a five year old, "Don't cross the busy street without an adult." Or "Don't eat too much candy." It's to protect them, not to prevent them from going to the store for a candy feast because you are oppressing them for fun.

If some stranger says, "Go ahead and cross the street. Pedestrians have the right away. The cars have to stop." Who is the "good guy"?

You have to be crazy to create a sentient race anymore. That's why fewer and fewer dieties are opting to become demiurges nowadays.

2dimes wrote:First and I don't know why DoomYoshi is not sharing this..

Satan did not really show up in the bible until Chronicles? He only really got rolling when he shows up in Job. God asks, "Where were you?" He says, "Oh roaming about the earth." So... wanna make a bet?

Second it's not a matter of teaching you to blindly obey people. It's more about warning that you should choose to do the right thing or sin will ruin everything. Many church leaders for different reasons can't be trusted but that is neither supported or opposed by the serpent tricking Adam and Eve into gaining knowledge.

They were innocent like children. You tell a five year old, "Don't cross the busy street without an adult." Or "Don't eat too much candy." It's to protect them, not to prevent them from going to the store for a candy feast because you are oppressing them for fun.

If some stranger says, "Go ahead and cross the street. Pedestrians have the right away. The cars have to stop." Who is the "good guy"?

I was thinking of doing the whole serpent is not satan thing but I thought it was insignificant to the actual answer. Your second example is great, except I still eat too much candy at times.

Anyways, the word Satan just means adversary. The first Satan is actually in the Torah and it is the angel of the Lord, which has also been imagined as a Christophany (by Justin Martyr at least). So, you heard it here first. Jesus is Satan (gasp). "The Satan" isn't introduced until Revelation, and that may just be because of Greek constantly throwing definite articles everywhere.