Conquer Club

Bernie Sanders wrote:America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Dukasaur wrote:Batista was a sadist who enjoyed killing and torturing his opponents. As bad as Castro's regime was, I think it was probably better than what might have happened if Batista had stayed in power.

Dukasaur wrote:

Bernie Sanders wrote:America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

Dukasaur wrote:About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

betiko wrote:i completely agree with Don.

Donelladan wrote:

betiko wrote:i completely agree with Don.

Gonna mark this day ! So, Shall we agree for Melanchon as our next president now ?

muy_thaiguy wrote:Well, asking the thousands upon thousands of Cuban exiles and their descendants...

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/26/us/miami- ... -reaction/

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/26/us/mi ... .html?_r=0

http://www.businessinsider.com/fidel-ca ... ng-2016-11

I get the feeling they weren't exactly fond of Fidel Castro.

Upon his seizure of power, Batista inherited a country that was relatively prosperous for Latin America. Although a third of the population still lived in poverty, Cuba was one of the five most developed countries in the region (According to the figures of the government of Batista).[36] In the 1950s, Cuba's gross domestic product (GDP) per capita was roughly equal to that of Italy at the time, although Cuba's per-capita GDP was still only a sixth of that of the United States.[37] Moreover, although corruption and inequality were rife under Batista, Cuban industrial workers' wages rose significantly.[37] According to the International Labor Organization, the average industrial salary in Cuba was the world's eighth-highest in 1958, and the average agricultural wage was higher than some European nations. However, despite an array of positive indicators, in 1953, the average Cuban family only had an income of $6.00 a week, 15% to 20% of the labor force was chronically unemployed, and only a third of the homes had running water.[38]

riskllama wrote:ya gotta respect a guy who snubbed the US for 5 decades...

Symmetry wrote:For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

mrswdk wrote:

Symmetry wrote:For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

Dukasaur wrote:

mrswdk wrote:

Symmetry wrote:For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

It's not a coincidence, I don't think. The U.S. has plenty of other bases it could have used for its political prison. I think Gitmo was chosen largely because Castro's repressive regime provided a secondary security cordon around the prison. Ramstein AFB or Camp Zama would have been the site of daily protests by both civil libertarians anti-American activists, and would provide a network of lawyers and journalists to any escaped prisoners. Gitmo is unique in that neither lawyers nor journalists have much pull in Havana, and unofficial protests are not allowed.

Dukasaur wrote:

Bernie Sanders wrote:America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

Also, it's "should have" and not "should of".

About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Batista was a sadist who enjoyed killing and torturing his opponents. As bad as Castro's regime was, I think it was probably better than what might have happened if Batista had stayed in power.

mrswdk wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:

mrswdk wrote:

Symmetry wrote:For some reason, whenever US criticism of Castro comes up, I think of the part of Cuba that is still American controlled- Guantanemo Bay. It's not entirely a fair comparison, obviously, but it's just odd to hear people saying that he was a awful when a democracy houses its own political prisoners there.

LOL, this. Who is the biggest human rights abuser in Cuba? Answer: the US Government.

It's not a coincidence, I don't think. The U.S. has plenty of other bases it could have used for its political prison. I think Gitmo was chosen largely because Castro's repressive regime provided a secondary security cordon around the prison. Ramstein AFB or Camp Zama would have been the site of daily protests by both civil libertarians anti-American activists, and would provide a network of lawyers and journalists to any escaped prisoners. Gitmo is unique in that neither lawyers nor journalists have much pull in Havana, and unofficial protests are not allowed.

Given the link I posted elsewhere yesterday about how US journalists have willingly suppressed information that might embarrass the US Government, the fact that the US Government and its departments are immune from lawsuits under US law, and the fact that protests have to be sanctioned by the US Government before they can go ahead, that doesn't sound any different to the US. Given that the US is the Land of the Free, I guess we can conclude that Cubans also enjoy unprecedented political freedoms (^0^)

Donelladan wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:

Bernie Sanders wrote:America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

You know that life expectancy in Cuba is higher than in US ? Ofc, if you fight the regime I guess it strongly lower your life expectancy there

Dukasaur wrote:About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Weird points. The "failure" of the economy in Cuba is mainly due to the fall of the URSS regime coupled with the US embargo.
People had lot of problem feeding themselves only after 1989 when the URSS fell.
Nowadays even with the "obsolete economic theories" Cuba is still doing better than most of South American country if we speak about feeding, educating and taking care of the health of their citizens. Which is imo, way more important than having a so-called good economy. Because what the point of having a good economy if the vast majority of the people in your country can't afford education or health care ?

Castro can be criticized, but I would more do it about the freedom of speech, the political prisoners, etc... , rather than about his economic choices, whose results can only be considered taking into account the US embargo...

GoranZ wrote:

Donelladan wrote:

Dukasaur wrote:

Bernie Sanders wrote:America created Fidel Castro. They supported their puppet Batista who was corrupt and evil himself. Batista ran away, as Castro forces closed in for the kill.
Now we have the same Cubans who ran away from the fight and now claim they are the true patriots of Cuba. They should of stayed and fought for democracy and freedom. Now we see these so-called freedom fighters basking in the freedom of Miami celebrating Casto's death.

Have you ever lived in a Communist dictatorship? "Staying and fighting" is not an option unless you want to avoid growing old. Escaping to freedom is the best option for most people in that situation.

You know that life expectancy in Cuba is higher than in US ? Ofc, if you fight the regime I guess it strongly lower your life expectancy there

Dukasaur wrote:About Castro: I don't think he was a monster. He began with good intentions, I'm sure, but he was trapped by his belief in obsolete economic theories, and he was unable to challenge his own assumptions. Most people are not. Most of us only are open to new ideas when defeat makes it obvious that our old ideas aren't working. Those who are never defeated miss that kind of mind-cleansing benefit.

Weird points. The "failure" of the economy in Cuba is mainly due to the fall of the URSS regime coupled with the US embargo.
People had lot of problem feeding themselves only after 1989 when the URSS fell.
Nowadays even with the "obsolete economic theories" Cuba is still doing better than most of South American country if we speak about feeding, educating and taking care of the health of their citizens. Which is imo, way more important than having a so-called good economy. Because what the point of having a good economy if the vast majority of the people in your country can't afford education or health care ?

Castro can be criticized, but I would more do it about the freedom of speech, the political prisoners, etc... , rather than about his economic choices, whose results can only be considered taking into account the US embargo...

Nice sum up, too bad a lot of people are under an influence of US marketing propaganda of how bad Cuba is.

When it comes to healthcare, the whole world should adopt the Cuban model. The sooner, the better.
Cuba’s Health Care System: a Model for the World