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Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 7:59 pm
by DoomYoshi
The classic argument is between reason and divination. The Greek philosophers argued that through reason only can one know the world while the Middle Eastern approach claimed that only through divine insight can one know the world. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas blended these two concepts and made Christianity successful for many years.

Since then, science has come to present itself as superior to both of these methods. I have usually used randomization as my main knowledge method. I only believe it if it has been randomized.

The problem with reason is that it is patently ridiculous. No person has ever been shown to be able to participate in the act of reasoning. Instead, all studies of the matter show that humans decide first and then use "reason" to justify their decisions. Of course, you have the obvious triumphs of reason like Aristotle stating that women aren't as intelligent because they have less teeth.

Science, in theory, can overcome these problems with reason by using data. While our own human minds see patterns where they aren't and fail to perceive them where they are, numbers don't lie. The problem is that people are completely incompetent at knowing how to interpret data. Physics has become an unexperimental metaphysics, with theories rated on how "mathematically beautiful" they are, rather than with how they correspond with reality. Experimental psychology recently had a great shadow overcast when only 30 of 100 experiments were repeatable (is it any wonder?). Nutritional studies are approaching a 50% retraction rate. Most of the biological studies are questionable because they don't start with a firm molecular basis. Until you understand the molecule, you can't understand the cell or the organ or the organism or the ecosystem. Economics is a bit less grounded in reality than metaphysics. The only place where science is superior is in Chemistry, where the Nobel prize went to somebody who used Scotch tape on a pencil tip over and over again.

I only included randomization because it grounded me for many years. I realize that most people don't consider it a legitimate form of knowledge. I am beginning to think that randomness doesn't exist since all proofs of randomness start with the assumption: "Assume an infinite random sequence". I don't think any such sequence exists.

All that's left is Divine Inspiration. Only through Jesus can one know the world. Only with the Holy Spirit can one have wisdom. Only with God is anything possible.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 10:59 pm
by warmonger1981
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neostoicism


Neostoicism is a practical philosophy which holds that the basic rule of good life is that the human should not yield to the passions, but submit to God. Neostoicism recognizes four passions: greed, joy, fear and sorrow. Although the human has the free will, everything that happens (even if it is wrong because of the human) is under control of God and finally it tends to the good. The human who complies with this rule is free, because he is not overcome by the instincts. He is also calm, because all the material pleasures and sufferings are irrelevant for him. Finally, he is really, spiritually happy, because he lives close to God.

How about that Doom?


I believe that chaos on a micro creates harmony on a larger overall scale. Complex systems of infinite reactions on a minute scale creates a perfect balance on a whole. There might be a boom bust cycle but nature has a way of working things out.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2016 11:50 pm
by TA1LGUNN3R
Doom wrote:The problem with reason is that it is patently ridiculous. No person has ever been shown to be able to participate in the act of reasoning. Instead, all studies of the matter show that humans decide first and then use "reason" to justify their decisions. Of course, you have the obvious triumphs of reason like Aristotle stating that women aren't as intelligent because they have less teeth.


That reminds me of something Heinlein wrote, unfortunately i can't find it and don't remember where it came from. It was similar, and it said something along the lines of reason or logic never revealed something not already known by the person. Reason is really a formalization or statement of something of which you've already drawn a conclusion or are convinced about.

I think that's largely true. I can say, however, that on a few occasions I've modified something i believed when presented with something truer, or where the logical conclusion reveals an inconsistency.

-TG

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:19 am
by jonesthecurl
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:
Doom wrote:The problem with reason is that it is patently ridiculous. No person has ever been shown to be able to participate in the act of reasoning. Instead, all studies of the matter show that humans decide first and then use "reason" to justify their decisions. Of course, you have the obvious triumphs of reason like Aristotle stating that women aren't as intelligent because they have less teeth.


That reminds me of something Heinlein wrote, unfortunately i can't find it and don't remember where it came from. It was similar, and it said something along the lines of reason or logic never revealed something not already known by the person. Reason is really a formalization or statement of something of which you've already drawn a conclusion or are convinced about.

I think that's largely true. I can say, however, that on a few occasions I've modified something i believed when presented with something truer, or where the logical conclusion reveals an inconsistency.

-TG


It's from "Tunnel in the Sky".
I don't have a copy immediately available, but it goes something like this...

"You use Logic like some people use dope. Logic only tells you what you already know"
"Then what use is logic?"
"Ask me an easy one."

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:47 am
by warmonger1981
A crazy person can make anything seem logical.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:40 am
by DoomYoshi
In this article, the author hopes that science can be fixed and, like an alcoholic, can become better only when the problem is faced.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/political-science/2016/jun/08/how-should-we-treat-sciences-growing-pains

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:27 pm
by riskllama
'heineken?!?!?!, f*ck that shit!!!"
PABST BLUE RIBBON!!!

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:56 pm
by Metsfanmax
DoomYoshi wrote:Physics has become an unexperimental metaphysics, with theories rated on how "mathematically beautiful" they are, rather than with how they correspond with reality.


Yes, it's true, the only thing physicists work on is string theory.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 4:28 pm
by Symmetry
Intuition? Or even the subconcious?

I ain't ready to attribute all knowledge to the God's ghost yet. Nor am I sympathetic to a God of the gaps theology. Have faith, if that's your thing, but don't expect me to believe that creativity is exclusively divine.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:52 pm
by DoomYoshi
The first ever psychology paper worth half a shit has been published. Maybe there is some hope for the field.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:10 pm
by Symmetry
DoomYoshi wrote:The first ever psychology paper worth half a shit has been published. Maybe there is some hope for the field.


Do you care about what other people think of you?

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:37 pm
by DoomYoshi
Symmetry wrote:
DoomYoshi wrote:The first ever psychology paper worth half a shit has been published. Maybe there is some hope for the field.


Do you care about what other people think of you?


Yes.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 4:11 pm
by DoomYoshi
There is No Scientific Method

Not as salacious as it sounds, actually a neat little read.

In 1970, I had the chance to attend a lecture by Stephen Spender. He described in some detail the stages through which he would pass in crafting a poem. He jotted on a blackboard some lines of verse from successive drafts of one of his poems, asking whether these lines (a) expressed what he wanted to express and (b) did so in the desired form. He then amended the lines to bring them closer either to the meaning he wanted to communicate or to the poetic form of that communication.

I was immediately struck by the similarities between his editing process and those associated with scientific investigation and began to wonder whether there was such a thing as a scientific method. Maybe the method on which science relies exists wherever we find systematic investigation. In saying there is no scientific method, what I mean, more precisely, is that there is no distinctly scientific method.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:22 pm
by DoomYoshi
The Enlightenment’s original motive was to make analysis of the world possible by tearing the right to define reality away from divine authority to individual reason. Descartes’ ‘I think therefore I am’ moved the seat of knowledge into the human mind


This has led directly to a world that the author describes as "post-fact".

https://granta.com/why-were-post-fact/

The truth is there is no hope for most of humanity and we are all miserable wretches. One way to cope with this information is with religion but the modern method is message boards. Each are equally divorced from reality. Any worldview, or even any self view in which you care about yourself is faulty.

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:38 pm
by riskllama
i have thought this to be the case for some time now and wondered if it was simply what happens to you when you get older...
in any case, thx for sharing, D?Y

Re: Four Methods of Knowledge

PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:32 pm
by warmonger1981
I watched this about a month ago. Found it interesting.

Ted Talk with Rupert Sheldrake


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JKHUaNAxsTg