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Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 1:11 pmby The asylum
Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 1:32 pmby DoomYoshi
The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
I guess you failed to notice that the United Kingdom is ranked 39th this month but China is only ranked 137th! Guess you didn't get that memo...
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 1:45 pmby riskllama
I always thought the Chinese steel was of a lesser quality than that of US/Canadian steel(not sure about the UK's). I do know for a fact that Chinese casing - the liner of your well bore for oil and gas wells - frequently arrived in a less than satisfactory condition ie. big dents, fucked threads, etc.
we also had to ALWAYS drift the Chinese stuff, even when pressed for time. not so much with the North American casing. the Chinese made mud pumps were also junk and a PAIN to work on...
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 2:07 pmby The asylum
DoomYoshi wrote:The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
I guess you failed to notice that the United Kingdom is ranked 39th this month but China is only ranked 137th! Guess you didn't get that memo...
I guess, well no I'll state. You completely missed the point.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 2:53 pmby waauw
The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
The chinese won't keep getting away with it. It's one of the main points on the EU agenda to counter chinese dumping prices. The US already raised their tariffs, the EU will follow suit.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/868316f6-22fc-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz4AAegUGLpWhat's more interesting is this:
Financial Times wrote:The question is an awkward one for Mr Cameron, who vowed on a visit to Beijing in 2010 that he would “make the case for China to get market economy status” but that the country would have to become more open.
Mr Cameron’s attempt to position Britain as China’s “best partner” in the west could be damaged if he now opposed the attempt.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 4:21 pmby WingCmdr Ginkapo
waauw wrote:The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
The chinese won't keep getting away with it. It's one of the main points on the EU agenda to counter chinese dumping prices. The US already raised their tariffs, the EU will follow suit.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/868316f6-22fc-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz4AAegUGLpWhat's more interesting is this:
Financial Times wrote:The question is an awkward one for Mr Cameron, who vowed on a visit to Beijing in 2010 that he would “make the case for China to get market economy status” but that the country would have to become more open.
Mr Cameron’s attempt to position Britain as China’s “best partner” in the west could be damaged if he now opposed the attempt.
Not fast enough for UK steel. I'm not pro Brexit, but this is saga is not a positive for the EU. We could have responded sooooo much quicker on our own.
@Asylum - We are not manufacturers, thats the problem. Our economy is not based on manufacture so its not viable to go all out to protect it.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 7:14 pmby waauw
WingCmdr Ginkapo wrote:waauw wrote:The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
The chinese won't keep getting away with it. It's one of the main points on the EU agenda to counter chinese dumping prices. The US already raised their tariffs, the EU will follow suit.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/868316f6-22fc-11e6-9d4d-c11776a5124d.html#axzz4AAegUGLpWhat's more interesting is this:
Financial Times wrote:The question is an awkward one for Mr Cameron, who vowed on a visit to Beijing in 2010 that he would “make the case for China to get market economy status” but that the country would have to become more open.
Mr Cameron’s attempt to position Britain as China’s “best partner” in the west could be damaged if he now opposed the attempt.
Not fast enough for UK steel. I'm not pro Brexit, but this is saga is not a positive for the EU. We could have responded sooooo much quicker on our own.
@Asylum - We are not manufacturers, thats the problem. Our economy is not based on manufacture so its not viable to go all out to protect it.
Well you're not wrong there, lethargy is unfortunately typical for the institution.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 7:17 pmby notyou2
It don't matter. The one percent gets to dictate where the wonderful products are made that they deem we can purchase from them. It is them maximizing profit to the detriment of us and our governments. Until we steal all their money it will continue.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Mon May 30, 2016 8:09 pmby thegreekdog
The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
Can't a company come along and start producing steel outside of China? Say in England? I'm not up on my international law, but I'm assuming, unlike domestically, there is no inherent way for a company in one country to monopolize an international industry given that China (and the Chinese steel companies) can't tell England (and the English steel companies) what to do. But I may be wrong considering this seems to be an important issue to you.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 12:56 pmby WingCmdr Ginkapo
thegreekdog wrote:The asylum wrote:Let me give you a little example of what's happening.
Britain is about to lose its last steel manufacturer because of cheap Chinese steel. What happens when it closes and the Chinese have the total monopoly and can raise the price to whatever they want because there's no competition? We've sold so many of our industries that we were world leaders at over the years to feed the stupid rich.
Can't a company come along and start producing steel outside of China? Say in England? I'm not up on my international law, but I'm assuming, unlike domestically, there is no inherent way for a company in one country to monopolize an international industry given that China (and the Chinese steel companies) can't tell England (and the English steel companies) what to do. But I may be wrong considering this seems to be an important issue to you.
Its the equivalent of being the largest stack in poker and going all in. Sure you cant afford to drop your prices for ever, but you can last longer than everyone else. To make it worse the EU does tell English steel what to do, making them impotent to respond.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 1:25 pmby mrswdk
Yeah, it's all China's fault that British steel companies aren't competitive:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34581945
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 1:44 pmby riskllama
ha, that article says China is also "dumping" wine(?) on the EU, as well. who the f*ck would buy Chinese wine, especially in Europe.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 1:48 pmby Dukasaur
riskllama wrote:ha, that article says China is also "dumping" wine(?) on the EU, as well. who the f*ck would buy Chinese wine, especially in Europe.
A friend of mine drank himself to death on Chinese cooking wine.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:01 pmby mrswdk
Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:02 pmby mrswdk
Dukasaur wrote:riskllama wrote:ha, that article says China is also "dumping" wine(?) on the EU, as well. who the f*ck would buy Chinese wine, especially in Europe.
A friend of mine drank himself to death on Chinese cooking wine.
Boy, that's certainly one way to go.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:07 pmby waauw
mrswdk wrote:Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Actually dumping prices are forbidden in the EU except in special cases, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same across the pond.
Though I admit it is hypocritical considering how the west has been selling food to Africa at dumping prices for several decades already. So yeah, measures and counter-measures amongst the powerful I guess.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:10 pmby mrswdk
waauw wrote:mrswdk wrote:Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Actually dumping prices are forbidden in the EU except in special cases, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same across the pond.
It's legal in the UK, and if people can do it in the UK then that means there can'\t be an EU diktat against loss leading either (given that any EU law would apply to all Member States, including the UK). It's also not illegal in the US.
There are examples of individual EU Member States banning the selling of essential foodstuffs at a loss, stuff like that, but by-and-large loss leading is a permitted practice throughout European and North American nations (as well as elsewhere).
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:24 pmby waauw
mrswdk wrote:waauw wrote:mrswdk wrote:Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Actually dumping prices are forbidden in the EU except in special cases, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same across the pond.
It's not illegal in the UK, which means there must not be any EU diktat against loss leading either.
It is illegal in the UK as it's EU regulation, unless you're referring to the exceptions. Most modern capitalist nations have these rules as a means to obey antitrust regulation.
ps: I edited my message before I noticed you had already responded.
waauw wrote:Though I admit it is hypocritical considering how the west has been selling food to Africa at dumping prices for several decades already. So yeah, measures and counter-measures amongst the powerful I guess.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:29 pmby mrswdk
Global demand for steel has slumped since 2008, shrinking the number of consumers and reducing the price. As a result, Chinese steel mills (the ones which haven't had to shut down, that is) are struggling to find a market for their steel (as are steel mills in other countries).
So Chinese mills have no choice - slash their prices, take a loss but maintain their market, or keep prices up and go bust. It's what any company would do in their position and it's hypocritical for other nations to slap tariffs on Chinese steel for doing this when they allow companies based within their own national borders to sell their products or services at a loss.
Though yes, I see waauw has now gone back and edited his post to acknowledge that companies in European and North American countries do the exact same thing.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:29 pmby waauw
http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/procedures_102_en.htmlWhat is an abuse?
To be in a dominant position is not in itself illegal. A dominant company is entitled to compete on the merits as any other company. However, a dominant company has a special responsibility to ensure that its conduct does not distort competition. Examples of behaviour that may amount to an abuse include: requiring that buyers purchase all units of a particular product only from the dominant company (exclusive purchasing); setting prices at a loss-making level (predation); refusing to supply input indispensable for competition in an ancillary market; charging excessive prices.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:34 pmby mrswdk
waauw wrote:mrswdk wrote:waauw wrote:mrswdk wrote:Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Actually dumping prices are forbidden in the EU except in special cases, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same across the pond.
It's not illegal in the UK, which means there must not be any EU diktat against loss leading either.
It is illegal in the UK as it's EU regulation, unless you're referring to the exceptions. Most modern capitalist nations have these rules as a means to obey antitrust regulation.
You're maybe thinking of predatory pricing, where the low prices are a strategy to harm competitors. Loss leading is where companies sell something at a loss-making price in order to get consumers into their store to buy other stuff (so tbf 'loss leading' probably isn't the right term to use in the context of Chinese companies flogging off their steel).
In the UK the government specifically outlawed selling alcohol at a loss a couple of years ago (as a measure to tackle binge drinking), and I heard something about Germany outlawing the selling of staple foods such as bread at a loss (for whatever reason). The fact that countries are picking out these particular examples of loss-leading and banning them would show that there is no blanket ban on loss-leading in those countries, or for the EU as a whole. By and large, loss leading is allowed.
ps: I edited my message before I noticed you had already responded.
waauw wrote:Though I admit it is hypocritical considering how the west has been selling food to Africa at dumping prices for several decades already. So yeah, measures and counter-measures amongst the powerful I guess.
Yes, i did notice that. Mentioned it in my last post.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:36 pmby mrswdk
waauw wrote:http://ec.europa.eu/competition/antitrust/procedures_102_en.htmlWhat is an abuse?
To be in a dominant position is not in itself illegal. A dominant company is entitled to compete on the merits as any other company. However, a dominant company has a special responsibility to ensure that its conduct does not distort competition. Examples of behaviour that may amount to an abuse include: requiring that buyers purchase all units of a particular product only from the dominant company (exclusive purchasing); setting prices at a loss-making level (predation); refusing to supply input indispensable for competition in an ancillary market; charging excessive prices.
As detailed in my above post, predatory pricing and loss leading are two different things and legally speaking are treated entirely differently. Within those EU guidelines as to what 'may' amount to an abuse, the former is an abuse and the latter is not an abuse.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:37 pmby mrswdk
Chinese still mills ditching the excess steel that they will otherwise not be able to sell is no different to a clothing store slashing the price of last season's clothes in order to clear out its stocks as quickly as possible.
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:38 pmby TA1LGUNN3R
waauw wrote:mrswdk wrote:Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Actually dumping prices are forbidden in the EU except in special cases, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same across the pond.
Though I admit it is hypocritical considering how the west has been selling food to Africa at dumping prices for several decades already. So yeah, measures and counter-measures amongst the powerful I guess.
It's illegal to rob somebody with a gun to their head, yet the government does it everyday. It's all a matter of perspective.
-TG
Re: Have you ever thought?
Posted:
Tue May 31, 2016 2:42 pmby waauw
TA1LGUNN3R wrote:waauw wrote:mrswdk wrote:Why is it that when a company sells at a loss to a consumer within its own country that's just a regular business practice called 'loss leading', whereas when it sells at a loss to a consumer in a different country that's 'dumping' and 'oh ma gerd thems dirty foreigners we should ban urm alllll'?
Actually dumping prices are forbidden in the EU except in special cases, and it wouldn't surprise me if it were the same across the pond.
Though I admit it is hypocritical considering how the west has been selling food to Africa at dumping prices for several decades already. So yeah, measures and counter-measures amongst the powerful I guess.
It's illegal to rob somebody with a gun to their head, yet the government does it everyday. It's all a matter of perspective.
-TG
Actually that's what laws try to avoid, no space for wider interpretations. If "it's all a matter of perspective", you got a lawsystem that looks like swiss cheese.