Conquer Club

My first political debate in quite a while, some kid from Nevada found me and decided that he could probably own me in a political debate so he challenged me to answer 5 questions. All this week I've been slowly writing novels back to him, but have been waiting to give it to him because I wanted to get his confidence up. He asked me these 5 questions and has been talking shit because I've been taking my time to answer them

1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

this is my response
1: I support the war in Afghanistan to some extent. I support it to the extent to when we were attacked by Al Queda they did have links to Afghanistan and that was where he was hiding before then, that war is ok in my book, because we had a reason, but extending the war to Iraq and changing it to a war on "terrorism" is all out ridiculous. Iraq wasn't a threat to us and wasn't tied to Al Queda. Also, you can not fight an Idea. Much like V says in the movie V for Vendetta, "ideas are bulletproof". You can kill the revolutionary but you can't kill the revolution. The same theory applies here they can kill all the terrorists, but more and more are just going to keep popping up the more they kill and it really is getting to a horrible slippery slope

2: Would I fight for America? Probably not, I don't agree with most of my countries policies or the general leadership or the path they are going in. I don't really believe that being born somewhere is enough of a reason for me to lose my life just for that place. Don't get me wrong America is alot better than alot of countries around the world, but there are better countries that I'd agree with more and be alot more willing to die for. Now if there was a situation where the U.S. was under huge threat and they needed soldiers to fight in a war against a corrupt regime then I'd definantly reconsider, but if I enlisted right now I'd probably end up risking my life in Iraq or somewhere who isn't even really a threat to us and is more of just killing off american citizens as we keep sending more and more lives out there to die in the name of fighting ideas. Which I would not appreciate.

3: If the draft was reinstated I would most definately dodge it. I believe for a democratic country to be the voice of the people and for it to be the beacon of freedom I believe that they would have to take into account what the people want and clearly the people of America don't want a draft. Heck, over half the people don't even want to be in this war, so for this war specifically a draft would be outlandish. I also believe that a truly free and democratic government should also take into the will of the people and protect their freedom to choose especially in the matter of life and death. Our government was founded on the writings of John Locke who theorized that the main objective of government was to protect their citizens life, liberty, and property. If a government is sending unwilling citizens out to die for it in an unjust war in particular that is wrong. That violates two of the 3 main principles that our country was founded on by taking away their life(potentially), but most importantly their liberty. If you wish to contend that our country was not founded on those specific Ideals I believe that it is made quite true in the declaration of independence as the only difference there is that it takes into account life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The pursuit of happiness would also be infringed on in the case of a draft, and that is why I would dodge.

4: I do believe in a separation of church and state. It is there to protect us. Our current administration is going after countries they feel to have infringed on their citizens freedoms and reject democracy. What those countries have is what most of our leaders want and are trying to enforce in America. They have a country where there is no separation of church and state. There are laws enforcing the muslim's religion and the countries are basically theocracies. Our leaders want that for our country too. They want us to be a christian nation where only christian laws are enforced. Which actually contradicts the laws of the bible interestingly enough. In the bible it talks about how we were in this life as a matter of free agency and choice and that our choices will depend on whether or not we get in to heaven, and that we must follow the right influences and the right teachings, but most importantly that we should choose. The government is getting rid of all ability to choose which really hurts our liberty which brings me back to the ideals our country was founded on for a reason of why that is so bad. Especially for the people who don't believe in the Christian god. I'm assuming that you are probably christian so I'll present you with this scenario. Imagine you were sent to Iran a country with no separation of church and state and a different religion than yours. Imagine you were forced to follow all of their religious laws and stuff. You wouldn't like that and that is essentially what separation of church and state will do to non christians in our country.

5: Yes, actually I do. My cousin was just shot in Iraq. Was sent to a hospital in Germany for the people with the most extreme and dangerous wounds of war. He was in pretty shitty shape, and after they got him fixed up and he did live through it they want to send him back a year later. Talk about crazy. I wouldn't be suprised if going back makes him go catatonic, but the government really could not give a damn. Many of them die in Iraq each year in a war against an idea which we can't actually fight and win. I believe that the number one way to support our troops right now is to send them home alive, and also to not irresponsibly get them stuck in wars where they are getting sent out to die in truckfuls. Right after my cousin got hurt they immediately gave him a purple heart, which you may say justifies it but in my mind all it does is make a point. They are sending purple hearts over in boatloads just because they know that there are lots of people getting hurt and that we aren't winning and they want to make sure that they can immediately give a purple heart to someone after they get hurt so that they wont realize that themselves.

reverend_kyle wrote:My first political debate in quite a while, some kid from Nevada found me and decided that he could probably own me in a political debate so he challenged me to answer 5 questions. All this week I've been slowly writing novels back to him, but have been waiting to give it to him because I wanted to get his confidence up. He asked me these 5 questions and has been talking shit because I've been taking my time to answer them

1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

this is my response
1: I support the war in Afghanistan to some extent. I support it to the extent to when we were attacked by Al Queda they did have links to Afghanistan and that was where he was hiding before then, that war is ok in my book, because we had a reason, but extending the war to Iraq and changing it to a war on "terrorism" is all out ridiculous. Iraq wasn't a threat to us and wasn't tied to Al Queda. Also, you can not fight an Idea. Much like V says in the movie V for Vendetta, "ideas are bulletproof". You can kill the revolutionary but you can't kill the revolution. The same theory applies here they can kill all the terrorists, but more and more are just going to keep popping up the more they kill and it really is getting to a horrible slippery slope

2: Would I fight for America? Probably not, I don't agree with most of my countries policies or the general leadership or the path they are going in. I don't really believe that being born somewhere is enough of a reason for me to lose my life just for that place. Don't get me wrong America is alot better than alot of countries around the world, but there are better countries that I'd agree with more and be alot more willing to die for. Now if there was a situation where the U.S. was under huge threat and they needed soldiers to fight in a war against a corrupt regime then I'd definantly reconsider, but if I enlisted right now I'd probably end up risking my life in Iraq or somewhere who isn't even really a threat to us and is more of just killing off american citizens as we keep sending more and more lives out there to die in the name of fighting ideas. Which I would not appreciate.

3: If the draft was reinstated I would most definately dodge it. I believe for a democratic country to be the voice of the people and for it to be the beacon of freedom I believe that they would have to take into account what the people want and clearly the people of America don't want a draft. Heck, over half the people don't even want to be in this war, so for this war specifically a draft would be outlandish. I also believe that a truly free and democratic government should also take into the will of the people and protect their freedom to choose especially in the matter of life and death. Our government was founded on the writings of John Locke who theorized that the main objective of government was to protect their citizens life, liberty, and property. If a government is sending unwilling citizens out to die for it in an unjust war in particular that is wrong. That violates two of the 3 main principles that our country was founded on by taking away their life(potentially), but most importantly their liberty. If you wish to contend that our country was not founded on those specific Ideals I believe that it is made quite true in the declaration of independence as the only difference there is that it takes into account life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The pursuit of happiness would also be infringed on in the case of a draft, and that is why I would dodge.

4: I do believe in a separation of church and state. It is there to protect us. Our current administration is going after countries they feel to have infringed on their citizens freedoms and reject democracy. What those countries have is what most of our leaders want and are trying to enforce in America. They have a country where there is no separation of church and state. There are laws enforcing the muslim's religion and the countries are basically theocracies. Our leaders want that for our country too. They want us to be a christian nation where only christian laws are enforced. Which actually contradicts the laws of the bible interestingly enough. In the bible it talks about how we were in this life as a matter of free agency and choice and that our choices will depend on whether or not we get in to heaven, and that we must follow the right influences and the right teachings, but most importantly that we should choose. The government is getting rid of all ability to choose which really hurts our liberty which brings me back to the ideals our country was founded on for a reason of why that is so bad. Especially for the people who don't believe in the Christian god. I'm assuming that you are probably christian so I'll present you with this scenario. Imagine you were sent to Iran a country with no separation of church and state and a different religion than yours. Imagine you were forced to follow all of their religious laws and stuff. You wouldn't like that and that is essentially what separation of church and state will do to non christians in our country.

5: Yes, actually I do. My cousin was just shot in Iraq. Was sent to a hospital in Germany for the people with the most extreme and dangerous wounds of war. He was in pretty shitty shape, and after they got him fixed up and he did live through it they want to send him back a year later. Talk about crazy. I wouldn't be suprised if going back makes him go catatonic, but the government really could not give a damn. Many of them die in Iraq each year in a war against an idea which we can't actually fight and win. I believe that the number one way to support our troops right now is to send them home alive, and also to not irresponsibly get them stuck in wars where they are getting sent out to die in truckfuls. Right after my cousin got hurt they immediately gave him a purple heart, which you may say justifies it but in my mind all it does is make a point. They are sending purple hearts over in boatloads just because they know that there are lots of people getting hurt and that we aren't winning and they want to make sure that they can immediately give a purple heart to someone after they get hurt so that they wont realize that themselves.

Erm, sorry did you want responses for this? Only you haven't been clear in that field. If so, what type?

reverend_kyle wrote:1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

Alright, I'll bite.

1) Yes
2) I have and would again
3) See #2
4) There is no separation of church & state in the constitution
5) Of course

I was kinda with you until you got to #4. Separation of church and state was to protect the church from the state. Not the other way around. So that the state could not establish one religion as in the middle east (which you are against I assume?) The "separation" was to keep uncle Sam out of the church.

reverend_kyle wrote:
1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

1. no.
2. no.
3. dodge
4. yes
5. no

jay_a2j wrote:I was kinda with you until you got to #4. Separation of church and state was to protect the church from the state. Not the other way around. So that the state could not establish one religion as in the middle east (which you are against I assume?) The "separation" was to keep uncle Sam out of the church.

Yup, I've explained this before in another thread.
There is no separation of church & state.
The First Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The idea of separation of church & state came from Thomas Jefferson's "Wall of Separation Letter" written to the Danbury Baptist Church in 1802.
http://www.usconstitution.net/jeffwall.html
This phrase has been bastardized by the left into trying to make people believe there is a constitutional right in freedom from religion.

DiM wrote:1. no.
2. no.
3. dodge
4. yes
5. no

Aw, are you one of those kind of guys that I saw crying 2 days into boot camp "I miss my mommy" 'cause they were getting picked on too much?

for what its worth...which frankly isnt much.

1) in theory yes, the way it was run was just very poor.
2) i would probably not enlist unless there was a cause i felt compelled by
3)depending on the cause perhaps, if i did not agree, i would attempt a conscientous objection...if that failed, well those might be the breaks
4) yes i feel the state should do its best to stay out of religion (they have their own civic religion to attend to)
5) in as much as i can, but this is kind of a tricky catch all.

Minister Masket wrote:

reverend_kyle wrote:long post edited down

Erm, sorry did you want responses for this? Only you haven't been clear in that field. If so, what type?

Yes, I wanted people answer/debate my answers.. whatever just make discussion essentially.

Iz Man wrote:

DiM wrote:1. no.
2. no.
3. dodge
4. yes
5. no

Aw, are you one of those kind of guys that I saw crying 2 days into boot camp "I miss my mommy" 'cause they were getting picked on too much?

and once again you prove why i will never go into the military...that stupid 'you have to kill people to be a man' mentality...

I'm probably sure that is very interesting stuff............ if you're old enough to vote Therefore, I will not concern myself with this......... yet.

Im not sure how anyone can say that they dont support their own troops. They are people from your own country, many probably just like everyone else, that are in a place they dont want to be to provide national security.

Most people join the military forces b/c they dont know what they want to do with their lives, they dont get a choice of whether they go to war or not. They are out protecting our lives to prevent something such as 9/11 ever happening again, even if it seems we're provoking the enemy.

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Enlist.
4. Yes, but not to the degree that churches lose their own rights, which is what I believe is happening at the moment.
5. Most definitely

reverend_kyle wrote:1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

here goes
1.Not American but i can see the justification for it when it started, it hasn't received the funding it needed to be truly effective.
2.Yes
3.Depends on why we are being drafted, i would take up arms to defend my countries soil, which i am sure is the only reason a draft would be employed anyway.
4.Yes, dont think the state should have anything to do with the church, church should be represented by the state to the extent that is necessary to represent that proportion of its constituency.
5. most certainly, who wouldn't?

reverend_kyle wrote:5: Do you support your troops.

this is my response

5: Yes, actually I do. My cousin was just shot in Iraq. Was sent to a hospital in Germany for the people with the most extreme and dangerous wounds of war. He was in pretty shitty shape, and after they got him fixed up and he did live through it they want to send him back a year later. Talk about crazy. I wouldn't be suprised if going back makes him go catatonic, but the government really could not give a damn. Many of them die in Iraq each year in a war against an idea which we can't actually fight and win. I believe that the number one way to support our troops right now is to send them home alive, and also to not irresponsibly get them stuck in wars where they are getting sent out to die in truckfuls. Right after my cousin got hurt they immediately gave him a purple heart, which you may say justifies it but in my mind all it does is make a point. They are sending purple hearts over in boatloads just because they know that there are lots of people getting hurt and that we aren't winning and they want to make sure that they can immediately give a purple heart to someone after they get hurt so that they wont realize that themselves.

I would like to know just how you support your troops? Just what do you do to support them? Just to say" Yes" I support them, does not mean you do so.

Beastly wrote:

reverend_kyle wrote:5: Do you support your troops.

this is my response

5: Yes, actually I do. My cousin was just shot in Iraq. Was sent to a hospital in Germany for the people with the most extreme and dangerous wounds of war. He was in pretty shitty shape, and after they got him fixed up and he did live through it they want to send him back a year later. Talk about crazy. I wouldn't be suprised if going back makes him go catatonic, but the government really could not give a damn. Many of them die in Iraq each year in a war against an idea which we can't actually fight and win. I believe that the number one way to support our troops right now is to send them home alive, and also to not irresponsibly get them stuck in wars where they are getting sent out to die in truckfuls. Right after my cousin got hurt they immediately gave him a purple heart, which you may say justifies it but in my mind all it does is make a point. They are sending purple hearts over in boatloads just because they know that there are lots of people getting hurt and that we aren't winning and they want to make sure that they can immediately give a purple heart to someone after they get hurt so that they wont realize that themselves.

I would like to know just how you support your troops? Just what do you do to support them? Just to say" Yes" I support them, does not mean you do so.

Thats why I posted the explanation..

or maybe this quote

I believe that the number one way to support our troops right now is to send them home alive, and also to not irresponsibly get them stuck in wars where they are getting sent out to die in truckfuls

but I forgot you aren't smart enough to read.

1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

1.Yes, in theory but it needs to be better run
2.No, not under normal circumstances
3.depends on the war, if it was one caused by the incompitency of gouvernments then no, if it was because peoples feedom was directly under threat then yes. (ie. i'd fight in WWII but not WWI)
4. yes, no natin is entirely of one religion so shaping a gouvernment around one religion would be unfair. Once europe had no seperation, the result was a continent wide bloodbath. especially in spain, france, germany and england.
5. not really sure, i dont want them to get killed but i dont really support them any more than i would bus drivers.

reverend_kyle wrote:3: If the draft was reinstated I would most definately dodge it. I believe for a democratic country to be the voice of the people and for it to be the beacon of freedom I believe that they would have to take into account what the people want and clearly the people of America don't want a draft. Heck, over half the people don't even want to be in this war, so for this war specifically a draft would be outlandish. I also believe that a truly free and democratic government should also take into the will of the people and protect their freedom to choose especially in the matter of life and death.

Is this a public debate, or just a debate between you and this other bloke?

I just ask, because you might want to re-write 3, and not use the term "dodging". That might give your opponent the chance to take the moral high ground, because dodging, as I understand it, can be equally practiced by people who oppose the draft in principle, and also, cowards, feckless people, etc.

If I were you, I'd say something along the lines of you'd conscientiously object to the war, you'd go right up to the draft board and proclaim your unwillingness to fight, and refuse your orders, and finally be willing to go to prison for this. Just don't imply that you'd go into hiding, which seems cowardly.

'Course, I'm not actually saying going to prison for this is a good idea - hell, I'd definitely go into hiding in this situation, why waste your best years in the slammer, or in a godforsaken desert? - but I'm just saying the more principled response would give your opponent less ammunition for his response.

"Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?"

Does he mean the way some people believe in god or what? Get someone to teach him some grammar.

Stopper wrote:

reverend_kyle wrote:3: If the draft was reinstated I would most definately dodge it. I believe for a democratic country to be the voice of the people and for it to be the beacon of freedom I believe that they would have to take into account what the people want and clearly the people of America don't want a draft. Heck, over half the people don't even want to be in this war, so for this war specifically a draft would be outlandish. I also believe that a truly free and democratic government should also take into the will of the people and protect their freedom to choose especially in the matter of life and death.

Is this a public debate, or just a debate between you and this other bloke?

I just ask, because you might want to re-write 3, and not use the term "dodging". That might give your opponent the chance to take the moral high ground, because dodging, as I understand it, can be equally practiced by people who oppose the draft in principle, and also, cowards, feckless people, etc.

If I were you, I'd say something along the lines of you'd conscientiously object to the war, you'd go right up to the draft board and proclaim your unwillingness to fight, and refuse your orders, and finally be willing to go to prison for this. Just don't imply that you'd go into hiding, which seems cowardly.

'Course, I'm not actually saying going to prison for this is a good idea - hell, I'd definitely go into hiding in this situation, why waste your best years in the slammer, or in a godforsaken desert? - but I'm just saying the more principled response would give your opponent less ammunition for his response.

I posted it if people wanted to make it a public debate.

After i responded to his question I actually got him to take my views and concede all points, and we're moderately friends now.

s.xkitten wrote:

Iz Man wrote:Aw, are you one of those kind of guys that I saw crying 2 days into boot camp "I miss my mommy" 'cause they were getting picked on too much?

and once again you prove why i will never go into the military...that stupid 'you have to kill people to be a man' mentality...

No. Once again it is you proving yourself to be an idiot. Farting from your mouth (or in this case, your fingers) without actually reading what you're responding to.
Where did I ever mention "killing is necessary to be a man"?
I didn't, and never have.
This simpleton (DIM) says he would 1) dodge the draft, 2) would not fight for his country, and 3) does not support our troops.
That's a coward.
The last time I pointed out your stupidity you chose not to respond, because you had no basis for your remarks.
Remember?

Iz Man wrote:

s.xkitten wrote:you are the kind of person that gives the military a bad rep. with your 'omg, they won't serve, they aren't a real man'...if you have to kill people to feel like a man, you obviously have something wrong with you...

Hardly.
The military doesn't have a bad rep.
I AM a combat veteran.
Read my posts, I've always respected those who decide not to serve. It's a matter of choice.
READ WHAT I WROTE !
What I said was "If someone is trying to kill you and/or your comrades, and you decide to throw your hands up and surrender because you "don't believe in killing human beings", then yes, you're a pussy."
I stand by that.
I don't care if you serve or not. But if you're the type that will stand by and cower while your friends and comrades around you are being attacked, then you deserve to be called a coward, because that's what you are.
Am I a man. Oh Yeah.
Is it because I've killed?
No.
It's because I did what was necessary to protect myself and my comrades when we were attacked.
Walk the walk that I have. My bet is you wouldn't have lasted 3 minutes.
And I say that only in response to your post.
I am very proud to have served my country in combat.
I do not disrespect anyone who choses not to serve. ONCE AGAIN, IT"S THEIR CHOICE.
This is nothing I haven't said before.
Do your homework, look back at what I've posted, then reply.

I don't expect you to respond this time either as once again, you've been proven wrong.
Now go back to your Barbies and let the boys discuss this.

Jehan wrote:

reverend_kyle wrote:1: Do you believe in the war in Afghanistan?
2: Would you fight for your country?
3: If there was a draft would you enlist, dodge, or take your chances?
4: do you believe in a separation of church and state?
and
5: Do you support your troops.

here goes
1.Not American but i can see the justification for it when it started, it hasn't received the funding it needed to be truly effective.
2.Yes
3.Depends on why we are being drafted, i would take up arms to defend my countries soil, which i am sure is the only reason a draft would be employed anyway.
4.Yes, dont think the state should have anything to do with the church, church should be represented by the state to the extent that is necessary to represent that proportion of its constituency.
5. most certainly, who wouldn't?

I don't understand what you mean by the funding needed for the war in Afghanistan wasn't given. The justification for the war in Afghanistan may be there, but that in Iraq (which has had lots of funding [1 trillion dollars approximately])

Gold Knight wrote:Most people join the military forces b/c they dont know what they want to do with their lives...

I appreciate what you said about supporting our troops, but in regards to this statement, you don't have a clue.

1. Yes I do, we need to find osama and If invading gets it done then so-be-it

2.If I had to

3.enlist, If I was old enough, don't be a pussy

4.I think everyones views need to be shown not just one.

5.yes and even if I didn't like the war I still would. They are risking their lives for us.

reverend_kyle wrote:

I believe that the number one way to support our troops right now is to send them home alive, and also to not irresponsibly get them stuck in wars where they are getting sent out to die in truckfuls

John Kerry?