Conquer Club

200 years ago today a great man was born. He was a great American and a great general.

To you Marse Robert :salute:

Mjolnirs wrote:200 years ago today a great man was born. He was a great American and a great general.

To you Marse Robert :salute:

Not sure if you heard, but he lost. It was in all the papers.

i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

Well, he would've been a great American had he been on the Union side.

Also, if Jefferson Davis would have let Gen. Lee fight the war he knew he could win (Basically blocking off supplies to the North and fighting it as a war of attrition) then the South would've had a much better chance at winning the war and remaining independent.

Why wasn't he a great American?

Was it because he stuck by his home? Or was it because he didn't make such sweeping measures politically that would curtail civil liberties at an extent not yet known in the history of the country?*cough*Lincoln*cough*

He wasn't a great American, he was a great Virginian.

stinkycheese wrote:He wasn't a great American, he was a great Virginian.

He was both.

P Gizzle wrote:i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

Confederate history is American history.

Why wasn't he a great American? He was from the Confederate states of America. The United States of America does not own a copyright to using the word American.

P Gizzle wrote:i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

By being with the confederacy he was loyal to his state, that's greatness.

maybe he was a great american not because he was a good general or fought for the union( i kno whe didnt) but because he represented american ideals. who says you have to be american to be a great american?

Mjolnirs wrote:

stinkycheese wrote:He wasn't a great American, he was a great Virginian.

He was both.

P Gizzle wrote:i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

Confederate history is American history.

no, confederate history is NOT american history.....it is a lame excuse for being racists......that DOESNT make you great....


if i said I hate muslims, then went a fought a war to oppress all muslims and was a great general, does that make me GREAT? heck, no, it doesnt

When you take an American History Class...you'll realize they cover the Civil War...thus making Confederate History = 'American History'.


--Andy

P Gizzle wrote:

Mjolnirs wrote:

stinkycheese wrote:He wasn't a great American, he was a great Virginian.

He was both.

P Gizzle wrote:i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

Confederate history is American history.

no, confederate history is NOT american history.....it is a lame excuse for being racists......that DOESNT make you great....


if i said I hate muslims, then went a fought a war to oppress all muslims and was a great general, does that make me GREAT? heck, no, it doesnt

way to make yourself look igornorant. the civil war wasnt faught over slaves it was fought for states rights. slavery just set it off. the emacipation proclamation wasnt the point of the war that was mostly to get the europeanans from not siding with the south. and it didnt do anything since it freed slaves in states that had not returned to the union before jan. 1 1865. the 14th amendment that actually freed slaves was only passed because it got its majority not from northern free states but from southern slave states that had to ratify it to return to the union after the war.

P Gizzle wrote:

Mjolnirs wrote:

stinkycheese wrote:He wasn't a great American, he was a great Virginian.

He was both.

P Gizzle wrote:i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

Confederate history is American history.

no, confederate history is NOT american history.....it is a lame excuse for being racists......that DOESNT make you great....


if i said I hate muslims, then went a fought a war to oppress all muslims and was a great general, does that make me GREAT? heck, no, it doesnt

Read a history book lately? While slavery was a major issue and the main catalyst for secession, it was by no means the reason the war was fought.

Do you have any idea who Lee was? Have you ever read anything about him? Your post shows the answer to all of these questions is no.

Besides all of that, saying that Confederate history is not American history is just stupid.

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:Why wasn't he a great American?

Was it because he stuck by his home? Or was it because he didn't make such sweeping measures politically that would curtail civil liberties at an extent not yet known in the history of the country?*cough*Lincoln*cough*

What's that a dig about?

Mjolnirs wrote:

P Gizzle wrote:

Mjolnirs wrote:

stinkycheese wrote:He wasn't a great American, he was a great Virginian.

He was both.

P Gizzle wrote:i don't know if he was a great american (after all, he did support the south) but he was indeed a great General

Confederate history is American history.

no, confederate history is NOT american history.....it is a lame excuse for being racists......that DOESNT make you great....


if i said I hate muslims, then went a fought a war to oppress all muslims and was a great general, does that make me GREAT? heck, no, it doesnt

Read a history book lately? While slavery was a major issue and the main catalyst for secession, it was by no means the reason the war was fought.

Do you have any idea who Lee was? Have you ever read anything about him? Your post shows the answer to all of these questions is no.

Besides all of that, saying that Confederate history is not American history is just stupid.

confederates aren't American, per se....they don't want to be american's hence the reason they split...and yes, the main reason they fought was for secession and states rights, blah, blah, blah, but another main issue was slavery and hatred for blacks.....saying otherwise is stupid....Lee was an awesome General, and yes i have read things about him, but i don't consider him a "Great american"....there, does that answer ur questions?

Main Entry: 1Amer·i·can
Pronunciation: &-'mer-&-k&n, -'m&r-, -'me-r&-
Function: noun
1 : an American Indian of North America or South America
2 : a native or inhabitant of North America or South America
3 : a citizen of the United States
4 : AMERICAN ENGLISH

Gizzle I understand what you are saying but you are way off base.

ok, well he's not a "United Statian" or whatever, they are Confederate Americans not "United Statians" and they never will be.

areon wrote:

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:Why wasn't he a great American?

Was it because he stuck by his home? Or was it because he didn't make such sweeping measures politically that would curtail civil liberties at an extent not yet known in the history of the country?*cough*Lincoln*cough*

What's that a dig about?

Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus, imprisoned political opponents without trial, and spent money without congressional authority.

It's beyond me how people can equate the suspension of civil liberties with greatness.

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:

areon wrote:

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:Why wasn't he a great American?

Was it because he stuck by his home? Or was it because he didn't make such sweeping measures politically that would curtail civil liberties at an extent not yet known in the history of the country?*cough*Lincoln*cough*

What's that a dig about?

Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus, imprisoned political opponents without trial, and spent money without congressional authority.

It's beyond me how people can equate the suspension of civil liberties with greatness.

well, what most people focus on is the surface. on the surface, Lincoln freed the slaves and won a war that could have ended both "American sides". i think that's why people love lincoln....that's why i love him

P Gizzle wrote:confederates aren't American, per se....they don't want to be american's hence the reason they split...and yes, the main reason they fought was for secession and states rights, blah, blah, blah, but another main issue was slavery and hatred for blacks.....saying otherwise is stupid....Lee was an awesome General, and yes i have read things about him, but i don't consider him a "Great american"....there, does that answer ur questions?

Yes it does and thank you.

We will have to agree to disagree on the "American" aspect of his status. Regarding other parts of your post:
It is good that you know there were other issues for the war, but the fact that you "blah, blah, blah" states rights tells me you don't agree with them. Many refer to that war as America's second war of Independence. Much of the Confederate constitution was a reaffirmation of the original US Constitution. Part of the States Rights aspect of the war was the progression of the US towards a larger federal government. (like today's) The original intent of the founders was a government designed to manage a confederation of states. We were These United States and we were becoming The United States.

Regarding the Hatred of Blacks; I don't think of it as a hatred as much as a feeling of their inferiority, and this was not just a regional thing. Most whites at the time felt that blacks were inferior. I've read quotes from Sherman that he did not believe in "negro equality", I've read quotes from Lincoln that he did not consider blacks equal. Lincoln's desire was to preserve the Union and is even quoted as saying he would do so by freeing all slaves, some slaves or no slaves, whichever would resolve the issue.

So, Let's agree Lee was a great general and a great Virginian. I'll go further and state he was a great man and a great American. We'll leave the discussion on the war for another day.

P Gizzle wrote:

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:

areon wrote:

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:Why wasn't he a great American?

Was it because he stuck by his home? Or was it because he didn't make such sweeping measures politically that would curtail civil liberties at an extent not yet known in the history of the country?*cough*Lincoln*cough*

What's that a dig about?

Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus, imprisoned political opponents without trial, and spent money without congressional authority.

It's beyond me how people can equate the suspension of civil liberties with greatness.

well, what most people focus on is the surface. on the surface, Lincoln freed the slaves and won a war that could have ended both "American sides". i think that's why people love lincoln....that's why i love him

Freed the slaves and won the war?

First, it was a war of attrition. He strangled the Southern economy.

Second, the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves only in the states of Rebellion. It did not include states that were still in the Union and had slaves (Maryland and West Virginia come to mind).

Jesse, Bad Boy wrote:Lincoln suspended the writ of habeas corpus, imprisoned political opponents without trial, and spent money without congressional authority.

It's beyond me how people can equate the suspension of civil liberties with greatness.

Simple, just look at the pure politics. Lincoln was looking at a drawn out war and didn't want to shift the power of the Union. While this might weigh down on people it keeps the administration stable. The forced drafts that went on were the worst in our history I think. The point is that these leaders during war are necessary and often removed when the conflict ends.

Mjolnirs wrote:Regarding the Hatred of Blacks; I don't think of it as a hatred as much as a feeling of their inferiority, and this was not just a regional thing. Most whites at the time felt that blacks were inferior. I've read quotes from Sherman that he did not believe in "negro equality", I've read quotes from Lincoln that he did not consider blacks equal. Lincoln's desire was to preserve the Union and is even quoted as saying he would do so by freeing all slaves, some slaves or no slaves, whichever would resolve the issue.

Abolitionists didn't all have their views out of the goodness of their hearts. Some wanted to deport the emancipated back to Africa. It is unfortunate that the eugenics movement isn't taught in our schools; this would make it easier to understand the times. The blacks weren't even freed because the northern states did nothing to stop the Jim Crow laws enacted after reconstruction ended.