McCain Clinton 08

[reminisco]

okay, this is called missing the forest for the trees.

No it's called making you present the truth instead of trying to make it look like the govt. did it all by itself. If it was so fucking obvious then you could have made that point but you didn't.

the conception of and funding for came entirely from the gov't. but who collects the tolls?

Even a basic google search would show you you're wrong on that. The private sector also came up with ideas for how to construct the highway system.

if they contract out to fills specific roles, that's one thing, but the gov't is still in charge.

Look, the whole point I'm making but you won't accept is that the govt. was unable to carry out the construction of the highways. They had to use private companies to help complete the project because they do a better job at it.

Yes, the govt. should have oversight. I don't disagree with that and perhaps this is where I'd agree with Snorri about making them accountable.

okay, i really don't want to get into it with you, cause you seem to get very angry and get very locked onto red herring details.

think of it like it's a movie. ultimately, it's the Executive Producer who "makes" the movie happen -- this is why the Best Film award goes to the Producer. even though it took all kinds of private contractors and etc etc etc to "make" the movie.

it's the same principle with the highway system, etc. of COURSE there were contractors and designers and etc from the private sector. but the gov't provided the impetus and the funding.

and the reason why this is a good thing is that then nobody "owns" the roads. we all do, since we are all a part of a representative gov't. this is why gov't regulation is important, because it's supposed to promote fair competition and level playing fields.

could you imagine what the USA would be like if Interstate highways were owned by private corporations? What if Pepsi owned Rt. 80 -- all the way across the USA. i doubt they'd let Coca-Cola use the road to transport its product.

i really hope you see where i've been going with this, because if you fail to grasp this concept you're just going to keep getting angry and looking for silly details to get all in a flap about.

[tzor]

the government built and maintains the interstate highway system in the USA, and although it was built for the purpose of defense, it stimulated entirely new "free economies". the same way the Postal Service aided information economies.

this is why i think the US gov't should invest in Fiber Optic lines across the nation. it would stimulate the information industry the same way the post office did before it. and would more effective stimulate the economy than $600 tax rebates or bailing out failed i-banks.

One of the problems of your argument is that many large scale projects done at the Federal level often have the problem of unintended consequences. The interstate highway system is a good example of the problem of unintended consequences. The system was in effect a significant subsidy to the then young but growing trucking industry (established by WWII veterans who were driving convoy trucks for the US forces) over the then well established freight train industry. The result was that the freight train industry as a whole was nearly driven to bankruptcy and many train lines became extinct. The federal government’s response was in turn a dismal failure.

(The irony of this is when you read of the truck driver’s complaints about high fuel costs “hurting” their business. Those dinosaurs of the freight train industry that have survived can now ship things cheaper because they are more fuel efficient. But the truckers, who by the way, have to violate every law to keep them safe and alive because their pay is far too low for them to do their job safely, want the federal government to intervene and keep them alive and well forever and ever.)

The other unintended consequence was that the interstate highway system was the first major project in which the federal government poured tons of money to the states, who cannot print their own money as can the federal government. Such funds are the equivalent of high fructose, high caffeine energy drinks and once the states got addicted to the money the federal government was able to eliminate most opposition from federal intervention in areas not technically allowed under the constitution (remember the 55MPH speed limit) simply by threatening to cut off interstate funding.

The fiber optic idea is a different problem because unlike freight, long distance data transmission is a necessary evil few of the carriers really want in the first place. (This is why most routing systems work on the “how fast can I dump this packet off of my network” algorithm.) But it still begs the question of who should pay for the system in the first place.

The concept of unintended consequences aside there is a valid function of the federal government to coordinate (and in some cases directly fund) investments in both technology and in infrastructure. But these things needs to be considered as the investments they are and designed to promote the goals of the federal government in areas that it considers critical to the well being of the nation as a whole.

[Snorri1234]

Anyway, bradley. I gotta compliment you for actually debating this time. My opinion of you has changed a great deal,


I know I'm a little hazy at times as I'm usually browsing 3 different forums at the same time and have a habit of not referencing my sources, but you've been a way nicer person than I anticipated. I'll try to find some examples of stuff but I get the feeling we agree on a lot of things except for the way to handle a few of them.

[bradleybadly]

Anyway, bradley. I gotta compliment you for actually debating this time. My opinion of you has changed a great deal,


I know I'm a little hazy at times as I'm usually browsing 3 different forums at the same time and have a habit of not referencing my sources, but you've been a way nicer person than I anticipated. I'll try to find some examples of stuff but I get the feeling we agree on a lot of things except for the way to handle a few of them.

Yeah thanks. By the way, I found that other thread you were talking about that bedub started. Good luck in med school.

[GabonX]

WTF is all of this?!? Everyone needs to stop talking or start your own threads!!!

This was supposed to be about what would happen if Hillary Clinton ran as McCain's VP. I know it is highly unlikely but stranger things have happened. If it were to happen would Obama have a shot or would McCain have the Republican vote clinched with roughly half to a third of the Democrats due to Clinton?..

I tend to agree with the second option.

[bradleybadly]

WTF is all of this?!? Everyone needs to stop talking or start your own threads!!!

This was supposed to be about what would happen if Hillary Clinton ran as McCain's VP. I know it is highly unlikely but stranger things have happened. If it were to happen would Obama have a shot or would McCain have the Republican vote clinched with roughly half to a third of the Democrats due to Clinton?..

I tend to agree with the second option.

Well I for one don't think it would happen. McCain is the nominee for the Republicans whether we like it or not. Obama or Clinton will be the Democrat nominee. One of them is going to lose to the other. It may be ugly and there will no doubt be some bitterness from the loser towards the winner but eventually they'll get over it and consolidate.

If anything, the loser of the Democrat side might run as an independent just to spite the winner and that would give McCain the victory for sure. Remember how many votes Ralph Nader was able to peel off from Gore and he wasn't even a major candidate.

Sorry to have gotten off topic.

[Snorri1234]

Obama or Clinton will be the Democrat nominee.

At this point it's highly unlikely Clinton will win. She would need to win almost everything by a large margin to get more delegates.

The big question is when Clinton will drop out of the race.

[wicked]

The big question is when Clinton will drop out of the race.

Not soon enough!!

[savant]

In the end, we're all screwed anyway..

[MeDeFe]

In the end, we're all screwed anyway..

We are, maybe it would be better if the lizardpeople took over right away. :/

[Napoleon Ier]

[Snorri1234]

One thing I'm wondering is why people think McCain will cut taxes? Do you think he will be able to while also staying in Iraq?

[MeDeFe]

That's not a lizardman, that's just a telepath.

[tzor]

The big question is when Clinton will drop out of the race.

Why would she drop out of the race? She has already won, the American people just don't know it yet. Her sinister plot to rule the universe cannot be stopped!

[reminisco]

One of the problems of your argument is that many large scale projects done at the Federal level often have the problem of unintended consequences.

surprise genius, most everything in life has unintended consequences.

i understand that aspect, but you hyper conservative nut jobs on here seem to think that perfection is possible.

but i'm not going to bother arguing about it for the following reasons (but go ahead and have the last word, cause i'm sure that's really important to you):

1) i don't have the time nor inclination to argue with morons who will never reach a common ground
2) it's off topic
3) you all just look for minutiae on which to try and "expose" problems with an argument while missing the entire point.

[savant]

That's not a lizardman, that's just a telepath.

Lightning bolts coming out of the sinuses = telepath?
I've been looking at this all wrong.

[Frigidus]

That's not a lizardman, that's just a telepath.

Lightning bolts coming out of the sinuses = telepath?
I've been looking at this all wrong.

No man, that's spidey sense. You've got to get your symbols right.

[reminisco]

Lightning bolts coming out of the sinuses = telepath?
I've been looking at this all wrong.

No man, that's spidey sense. You've got to get your symbols right.

that's why he doesn't need to answer the phone at 3am every fucking time it rings. cause his spidey sense will tell him when it's a really important call.

[savant]

Lightning bolts coming out of the sinuses = telepath?
I've been looking at this all wrong.

that's why he doesn't need to answer the phone at 3am every fucking time it rings. cause his spidey sense will tell him when it's a really important call.

Wait.. Why would Obama get calls at 3AM, unless he operates his own weed/drug delivery service on the side?
I could see that his spidey sense would detect whether or not it was a narc calling in that case.

[reminisco]

that's why he doesn't need to answer the phone at 3am every fucking time it rings. cause his spidey sense will tell him when it's a really important call.

Wait.. Why would Obama get calls at 3AM, unless he operates his own weed/drug delivery service on the side?
I could see that his spidey sense would detect whether or not it was a narc calling in that case.

have you not seen the semi-famous Hillary ad about getting phone calls at 3am? or are you continuing the joke and i'm looking dumb right now?

[savant]

have you not seen the semi-famous Hillary ad about getting phone calls at 3am? or are you continuing the joke and i'm looking dumb right now?

Continuing the joke lol
Speaking of that ad, it makes as much sense as a pharmaceutical commercial with people riding bikes, rowing boats and sitting on rocks on a sunny day.

[Neoteny]

have you not seen the semi-famous Hillary ad about getting phone calls at 3am? or are you continuing the joke and i'm looking dumb right now?

Continuing the joke lol
Speaking of that ad, it makes as much sense as a pharmaceutical commercial with people riding bikes, rowing boats and sitting on rocks on a sunny day.

I remember that one! Genital herpes, right? How's that going for you?

[Napoleon Ier]

have you not seen the semi-famous Hillary ad about getting phone calls at 3am? or are you continuing the joke and i'm looking dumb right now?

Continuing the joke lol
Speaking of that ad, it makes as much sense as a pharmaceutical commercial with people riding bikes, rowing boats and sitting on rocks on a sunny day.

The last 3 a.m emergency Hillary answered was Bill from the police station asking for $300 and a pair of pants.

[savant]

I remember that one! Genital herpes, right? How's that going for you?

Not bad. It hasn't come back for the last seven months or so. But I'm noticing some side effects: headache, dizziness, drowziness, high blood pressure, nausea, anxiety, bloating, constipation, mild stomach pain, blurred vision, rashes, trouble sleeping, fatigue, loss of appetite, sensitivity to sunlight, dry mouth, irregular heartbeat between the hours of 3:37PM to 5:14PM EST, vomiting, muscle cramping, fainting, increased urination, unusual eye movements, fever, sweating, mood swings and mild cases of depression.

And that's on a good day..

[Neoteny]

I remember that one! Genital herpes, right? How's that going for you?

Not bad. It hasn't come back for the last seven months or so. But I'm noticing some side effects: headache, dizziness, drowziness, high blood pressure, nausea, anxiety, bloating, constipation, mild stomach pain, blurred vision, rashes, trouble sleeping, fatigue, loss of appetite, sensitivity to sunlight, dry mouth, irregular heartbeat between the hours of 3:37PM to 5:14PM EST, vomiting, muscle cramping, fainting, increased urination, unusual eye movements, fever, sweating, mood swings and mild cases of depression.

And that's on a good day..

I'd count you lucky. No anal seepage.