Do athiests celebrate christmas?

[reminisco]

This is probably not going to be on my Christmas "wishlist"

Merry fucking honika.

well, i'll tell you what. if you don't manage to win a Darwin Award after you unintentionally commit suicide so stupidly that people never forget your name, i will be surprised. but if you do, somehow, manage to live long enough to attend college, pretty much any Philosophy 101 class is going to expose you to Kant.

well, probably not to you, county college being the only papermill desperate enough to take you.

[MeDeFe]

It's just the way I am. Why should I be damned for that?

You won't be damned for being "who you are." You will be "damning" yourself by not fulfilling the very reason for which you were created.

And what is that reason? Believing in and loving god? If a person is a natural atheist then this person is damned for who they are because they cannot fulfill the reason they were created for, not even if they wanted to.


Earlier you said that it's pretty obvious that rejecting god is a sin, but that's only the case because god supposedly says so. We have this über-l33t, omnipotent creator person who tells us what we must and must not do which he is allowed to do because he created the universe and is somehow inside and outside it at the same time. Then he gives us free will so we can decide what we do on our own and wants us to love him and says that not loving him is a sin. Does this not strike you as even a little wrong? "You can decide what you want to do, but if you decide other than what I tell you to, you will suffer eternal torture, and it's none of my fault because you have free will."
To me it sounds like one of the most sadistic things imaginable, and that's without taking into account the glaring lack of evidence indicating the existence of this creator. He can supposedly bend the laws of nature any way he wants, so where's the problem in creating a mountain range spelling out the words "GOD WAS HERE!" for everyone to see? Or burning letters that are hundreds of meters tall if you like Douglas Adams. But no there's nothing like that, instead he snaps us into existence, drops us a book after we've already been around for a few thousand years, periodically there are people claiming to be prophets or saviours and one of them actually manages to update the system of a very local group. Since then things have been rather quiet.
If you're happy with that, fine, but you do see why others might not be prepared to worship or even just believe in a god, don't you?


About masturbation, if you can rationalize away an eternity of torture, this suggests to me that you don't really buy into the idea that masturbation is one of the worst things you could possible do in gods eyes. After all, it's not as if you were really giving the guy a facial...

[Neutrino]

I can see one major flaw in Ambrose's argument, and that is that it is not necessary to damn nonbelievers to eternal torment. I can understand not giving the heathens prime cuts, but eternal damnation is going a little far. There is no evil extra-divine force standing behind God with a shockprod, as far as I'm aware, and therefore no reason for a supposedly benevolent God to authorize eternal torture for a minor infraction.
God should have been aware that free will, by definition, will always result in some elements that will not obey your divine will. Whether through no exposure to Christianity, already having a religion/ choosing another religion, having a bad experience with the chruch, etc, etc, there will always be multitudes who don't choose Christianity. Since as far as I'm aware there is no huge excess of proof for Christianity that all other religions lack, it's basically an even chance for any particular religion to convert an outsider. This is where my earlier analogy comes in. God, as seen in the Bible, is, in essence, damning people for making the wrong choice with no additional information. Not the most benevolent of actions.

Hmmm, it seems MeDeFe has beaten me to the point, and slightly more elequently too. Must type faster next time.

[Snorri1234]

Yeah...whatever they said.

[Iliad]

It's just the way I am. Why should I be damned for that?

You won't be damned for being "who you are." You will be "damning" yourself by not fulfilling the very reason for which you were created.

And what is that reason? Believing in and loving god? If a person is a natural atheist then this person is damned for who they are because they cannot fulfill the reason they were created for, not even if they wanted to.


Earlier you said that it's pretty obvious that rejecting god is a sin, but that's only the case because god supposedly says so. We have this über-l33t, omnipotent creator person who tells us what we must and must not do which he is allowed to do because he created the universe and is somehow inside and outside it at the same time. Then he gives us free will so we can decide what we do on our own and wants us to love him and says that not loving him is a sin. Does this not strike you as even a little wrong? "You can decide what you want to do, but if you decide other than what I tell you to, you will suffer eternal torture, and it's none of my fault because you have free will."
To me it sounds like one of the most sadistic things imaginable, and that's without taking into account the glaring lack of evidence indicating the existence of this creator. He can supposedly bend the laws of nature any way he wants, so where's the problem in creating a mountain range spelling out the words "GOD WAS HERE!" for everyone to see? Or burning letters that are hundreds of meters tall if you like Douglas Adams. But no there's nothing like that, instead he snaps us into existence, drops us a book after we've already been around for a few thousand years, periodically there are people claiming to be prophets or saviours and one of them actually manages to update the system of a very local group. Since then things have been rather quiet.
If you're happy with that, fine, but you do see why others might not be prepared to worship or even just believe in a god, don't you?


About masturbation, if you can rationalize away an eternity of torture, this suggests to me that you don't really buy into the idea that masturbation is one of the worst things you could possible do in gods eyes. After all, it's not as if you were really giving the guy a facial...

it's like saying the military isn't compulsory but if you don't volunteer we shoot you
Or this is a charity but if you don't give a large amount we confiscate your property

And I really don't see that as free will. Do this or burn for eternity. If I put a gun to your head and say to you put your hands on your head do you have free will?

[Nataki Yiro]

God isn't sending you to hell... You are by not accepting him...

I find it funny that people try to figure God out logically. We are merely his creations, even though we are made in his image. How can a creation ever completely understand his/her creator. If you think about it from the stand point of a computer, a computer is never smarter than the one who programmed because their is no way for it to receive all of it creator's knowledge. Not even AI computers can understand humans. How much are we incapable of understanding the orchestrator of the universe.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to understand him. I'm saying when all we care about is understanding him, we are missing out on the relationship of a lifetime.

[Snorri1234]

God isn't sending you to hell... You are by not accepting him...

And since he knows everything thas has happened and will happen, he knows whether you will accept him or not. So god is a dick for creating us while knowing we will suffer for eternity.

[Nataki Yiro]

And since he knows everything thas has happened and will happen, he knows whether you will accept him or not. So god is a **** for creating us while knowing we will suffer for eternity.

So you are saying he is a jerk for letting you choose?
I agree... you seem pretty dense... I wouldn't let you choose... but then again I'm not just either... >_>

Oh! I missed the "free will" question... sorry.

"Free will" isn't accept me or burn in hell.

We are given a life on earth and eternity in heaven, however, because of sin we forfeit heaven for hell (good trade huh?). That's why God sent Jesus, and that is to make an outlet for us to come back to him. So no one would get left behind. Too bad people choose to live alone than having a relationship with God. People go to hell because they don't take the escape that was given us. Most of them thinking they can make their own way...

Secondly, religious people have totally messed up and traded having a relationship with God for obeying laws. I don't obey Gods laws because it's the only way to go to heaven, because that's not the truth. I obey God's laws (there are much fewer than you think) because I love him and I want to give back to the One who gave everything for me.

[reminisco]

regarding the heaven and hell thing, i've always really liked C.S. Lewis' The Great Divorce.

and i think his book is just as valid an explanation of what may lie in store for us all as the book of Revelation is in the Bible. meaning not that The Great Divorce should be taken literally, but that Revelation abso-fucking-lutely should not be.

if you haven't read the materials i'm referencing, don't bother responding to this post. i'm not the type to spend a whole lot of time thinking about this stuff. i'll worry about the afterlife when i get to the afterlife (if, indeed, there is one). right now, i need to be focused on this life, and doing the best i can to be good. to grow stronger. sure, i'm operating under the assumption that there's an afterlife, cause if there's not, i lose nothing (except my flesh to the worms).

but i have a different perspective from most people, because i've died once already. i never should have survived what i did, and i often like to think of it as my metaphysical death and resurrection. and so, always cognizant of just how quickly this life can end (not to mention how cheaply and devoid of a dramatic, self-aggrandizing "purpose") and how quickly and thoroughly everything can be taken from me, i'm just not worried about all of it.

i'm not afraid to die. and i really think that God is going to take it all into account. God knows what it's like to be a human. He knows what it's like to fail. he knows about the struggle, the great efforts and the greater let downs -- the 'crushed like a bug in the ground' carousel of human experience. what it's like to taste His own blood, to beg for mercy from someone who just isn't responding ("my God my God why have you foresaken me?"), to be humiliated in front of the known world. He knows what it's like to die.

and i like believing that. it's very comforting. so it's not all based completely on logic and reason. i've always liked what Hamlet said, that 'there is more in heaven and earth than you have considered in your philosophy.' and that's where the idea of the creator fills in the gaps. what makes it so much more comforting is remembering that he knows what it's like to be us, and when the time comes to meet him, i don't think he's going to be a dick about it.

[Snorri1234]

So you are saying he is a jerk for letting you choose?

Nah, he's a jerk for not giving us a choice. God supposedly knows already before creating us that we won't belief in him. That's not choice.

"Free will" isn't accept me or burn in hell.

Sure seems to come down to that though.

Most of them thinking they can make their own way...

No, most of them thinking God doesn't even exist.

(there are much fewer than you think)

Only two right?
1. Obey.
2. No homos.

[Neoteny]

I really can't figure out how omniscience and free will work out in a theist's mind. It's mildly disconcerting.

[reminisco]

I really can't figure out how omniscience and free will work out in a theist's mind. It's mildly disconcerting.

it's like the Terminator Paradox.

[Neoteny]

I really can't figure out how omniscience and free will work out in a theist's mind. It's mildly disconcerting.

it's like the Terminator Paradox.

Ignore it and it'll go away?

[Napoleon Ier]

Not according to most christians.

Note that this argument relies on the rather tenuous premise the Genevan Heresy can be considered a form of "Christianity".

[reminisco]

I really can't figure out how omniscience and free will work out in a theist's mind. It's mildly disconcerting.

it's like the Terminator Paradox.

Ignore it and it'll go away?

kind of, or more like, if you think about it too much it ruins the whole fucking movie, cause none of it could happen.

but yeah, just ignore it. or else don't be so rigid in your approach, and just accept that it's possible or impossible, but either way, you can't expect to get anywhere in life worrying about it all day long.

as i said earlier, i like what Hamlet said about heaven, earth, and philosophy. so i've chosen to believe there's a higher power. i'm not going to pretend (as far too many people on these boards do) to understand this higher power or be able to speak for him.

i know a fair amount about a lot of the stories humans have come up with over the millennia to try and understand the same concept. which mostly just shows that i'm not alone in thinking that there's a higher power, and that there are some powerful themes that seem to suggest that "God's law is written on the hearts of all men". because, for the most part, morality (at least with the really important stuff) is pretty constant from culture to culture.

[bradleybadly]

Reminisco, I think you're a victim of this Norse guy. He's been creating multis and just arguing to piss people off. First it was Guiscard & Got Tonkaed and now I think he's doing it again with Hitman079.

[reminisco]

Reminisco, I think you're a victim of this Norse guy. He's been creating multis and just arguing to piss people off. First it was Guiscard & Got Tonkaed and now I think he's doing it again with Hitman079.

yeah, i figured it was Norse. which is why i figured i could openly flame him for trolling, and not care.

[brooksieb]

It's just the way I am. Why should I be damned for that?

You won't be damned for being "who you are." You will be "damning" yourself by not fulfilling the very reason for which you were created.

And what is that reason? Believing in and loving god? If a person is a natural atheist then this person is damned for who they are because they cannot fulfill the reason they were created for, not even if they wanted to.


Earlier you said that it's pretty obvious that rejecting god is a sin, but that's only the case because god supposedly says so. We have this über-l33t, omnipotent creator person who tells us what we must and must not do which he is allowed to do because he created the universe and is somehow inside and outside it at the same time. Then he gives us free will so we can decide what we do on our own and wants us to love him and says that not loving him is a sin. Does this not strike you as even a little wrong? "You can decide what you want to do, but if you decide other than what I tell you to, you will suffer eternal torture, and it's none of my fault because you have free will."
To me it sounds like one of the most sadistic things imaginable, and that's without taking into account the glaring lack of evidence indicating the existence of this creator. He can supposedly bend the laws of nature any way he wants, so where's the problem in creating a mountain range spelling out the words "GOD WAS HERE!" for everyone to see? Or burning letters that are hundreds of meters tall if you like Douglas Adams. But no there's nothing like that, instead he snaps us into existence, drops us a book after we've already been around for a few thousand years, periodically there are people claiming to be prophets or saviours and one of them actually manages to update the system of a very local group. Since then things have been rather quiet.
If you're happy with that, fine, but you do see why others might not be prepared to worship or even just believe in a god, don't you?


About masturbation, if you can rationalize away an eternity of torture, this suggests to me that you don't really buy into the idea that masturbation is one of the worst things you could possible do in gods eyes. After all, it's not as if you were really giving the guy a facial...

A saying from the book 3:53 Brooksieb

"You need alot of money to find out the things you believe in, such as the theory of how things came about, you need nothing to believe in god."

Also not all christians or people that believe in god/s are all the way you put them, for example i go to church on important days, not all sundays like you put christians, i go if it's christmas, easter, there is a baptising, conformation, the bishop comes etc, i can take a joke about my religion. Sometimes i tell my wife i'm going 'god bothering' and there is nothing wrong with masterbating in my eyes. The bible are teachings to help you with your' everyday life, If your a monothiest the ten commandments are the rules you MUST follow, all the rest are reccomendations. If you need to do it you need to do it, It's between yourself and that's it, you and nature. HOWEVER if you are crazy for it and do that consistently all day every day, it's not a problem regarding your' religion, its a problem regarding yourself...

[reminisco]

A saying from the book 3:53 Brooksieb

"You need alot of money to find out the things you believe in, such as the theory of how things came about, you need nothing to believe in god."

Also not all christians or people that believe in god/s are all the way you put them, for example i go to church on important days, not all sundays like you put christians, i go if it's christmas, easter, there is a baptising, conformation, the bishop comes etc, i can take a joke about my religion. Sometimes i tell my wife i'm going 'god bothering' and there is nothing wrong with masterbating in my eyes. The bible are teachings to help you with your' everyday life, If your a monothiest the ten commandments are the rules you MUST follow, all the rest are reccomendations. If you need to do it you need to do it, It's between yourself and that's it, you and nature. HOWEVER if you are crazy for it and do that consistently all day every day, it's not a problem regarding your' religion, its a problem regarding yourself...

QFT.

you and i are a lot alike, brooksieb.

[brooksieb]

A saying from the book 3:53 Brooksieb

"You need alot of money to find out the things you believe in, such as the theory of how things came about, you need nothing to believe in god."

Also not all christians or people that believe in god/s are all the way you put them, for example i go to church on important days, not all sundays like you put christians, i go if it's christmas, easter, there is a baptising, conformation, the bishop comes etc, i can take a joke about my religion. Sometimes i tell my wife i'm going 'god bothering' and there is nothing wrong with masterbating in my eyes. The bible are teachings to help you with your' everyday life, If your a monothiest the ten commandments are the rules you MUST follow, all the rest are reccomendations. If you need to do it you need to do it, It's between yourself and that's it, you and nature. HOWEVER if you are crazy for it and do that consistently all day every day, it's not a problem regarding your' religion, its a problem regarding yourself...

QFT.

you and i are a lot alike, brooksieb.

Religiously, politically we don't get along that well.

[reminisco]

Religiously, politically we don't get along that well.

i'm not sure i've ever really discussed my politics on these forums. but fair enough.

[brooksieb]

Religiously, politically we don't get along that well.

i'm not sure i've ever really discussed my politics on these forums. but fair enough.

I think we had a little argument on would you defend your' country

[Neoteny]

kind of, or more like, if you think about it too much it ruins the whole fucking movie, cause none of it could happen.

but yeah, just ignore it. or else don't be so rigid in your approach, and just accept that it's possible or impossible, but either way, you can't expect to get anywhere in life worrying about it all day long.

as i said earlier, i like what Hamlet said about heaven, earth, and philosophy. so i've chosen to believe there's a higher power. i'm not going to pretend (as far too many people on these boards do) to understand this higher power or be able to speak for him.

i know a fair amount about a lot of the stories humans have come up with over the millennia to try and understand the same concept. which mostly just shows that i'm not alone in thinking that there's a higher power, and that there are some powerful themes that seem to suggest that "God's law is written on the hearts of all men". because, for the most part, morality (at least with the really important stuff) is pretty constant from culture to culture.

Nope, my mind doesn't work that way, so if there is a god, he screwed me over. And that's not very godlike, QED he doesn't exist, at least not in any currently accepted form. If there is a god, he is a sneaky, devious, evil prick who doesn't deserve my acknowledging. Good analogy, though.

[reminisco]

Religiously, politically we don't get along that well.

i'm not sure i've ever really discussed my politics on these forums. but fair enough.

I think we had a little argument on would you defend your' country

i'll have to look it up, but i may have been kidding.

(and i'm not funny, so the joke probably wasn't funny, if it was a joke)

[reminisco]

Nope, my mind doesn't work that way, so if there is a god, he screwed me over. And that's not very godlike, QED he doesn't exist, at least not in any currently accepted form. If there is a god, he is a sneaky, devious, evil prick who doesn't deserve my acknowledging. Good analogy, though.

and that's your prerogative. i can't honestly say there haven't been times in my life when i haven't completely agreed with you.