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Re: definition

Postby MR. Nate on Wed Oct 03, 2007 8:35 pm

satanspaladin wrote:you are most probably right as stated before not a reader of the bible. just know am all way geting told that i will burn in hell for my life style am a lesbian .so if i am going to burn may as well give the devil a helping hand .he gets the most appalling press and he works so diligently

I don't know, I don't often see threads focused on demeaning the character of Satan, or hear about people blaming Satan for all the problems in their lives. And FYI, theres no act that you can do that guarantees your trip to hell: that ticket is only stamped through rejection of the person and work of Christ. I know more than a couple people saved out of lifestyles that would make everyone assume they were born damned, but at this point, it sure looks like they have been changed.
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Postby Itrade on Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:17 pm

I hope you guys don't think I was being serious about that santa thing.

Although that's what he'd want us to think: that it's one big joke until he plunges the world in darkness and flame.
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Postby CrazyAnglican on Wed Oct 03, 2007 11:01 pm

unriggable wrote:The bible would make an intersting movie, like saving private ryan (because only the beginning is good).


Then how come so many movies are (entirely or in part) about four books in the middle?

"The Greatest Story Ever Told", "The Passion of the Christ", "The Nativity Story", "The Last Temptation of Christ". etc. etc. etc.

Read a little further; it gets better. :wink:



joecoolfrog wrote: Now we all know that the Biblical Sabbath was Saturday and that it was changed to Sunday (apparently to apease the still majority pagans) by Constantine and ever since has been the Christian day of worship. Given this why dont Fundamentalist Christians worship on Saturday as opposed to the arbituary day that has no biblical foundation. Im not asking this to be provocative,I am simply puzzled because it doesnt add up when you consider that large parts of the Old Testament are accepted without question.


Saturday is the Sabbath; that hasn't changed. Some Christian groups (ex. The Seventh Day Adventists) do worship on Saturday.

Sunday does have a Biblical reference as the day that Christians worship; it was the third day upon which Christ was resurrected. So, worship on Sunday is the weekly remembrance of Christ's resurrection, and Easter Sunday is the yearly celebration of the same event.

As far as large parts of the Old Testament going unquestioned, this is one of the criticisms that I have seen of Christians (that they pick and choose which parts of the Bible are important). I freely admit to this. I don't stone my neighborfor working on Saturday, I've never killed a Pagan (or bad-mouthed one that I can remember), and I don't punish my wife for not wearing a hat in church.

This was one of the very criticisms that Christ was brought up for (letting his disciples gather food on the Sabbath). His answer, as far as I could tell, was to ask what was the greater evil letting someone go hungry or gathering food. He didn't call for the Sabbath to be abandoned; he called for the people to start using more common sense in following laws that could be good if not taken to the level seen in the Old Testament. Hence the need, in the Christian perspective, for a New Testament.
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Postby magneticgoop on Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:50 am

why does everyone hate chrisianity all we really are if there is no God is a self help group and i dot see a problem with that, i have yet to hear a good reason to dislike christianity other than some obscure vrese that has been explained but you are too stubborn to see the point being made
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Postby joecoolfrog on Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:02 am

magneticgoop wrote:why does everyone hate chrisianity all we really are if there is no God is a self help group and i dot see a problem with that, i have yet to hear a good reason to dislike christianity other than some obscure vrese that has been explained but you are too stubborn to see the point being made


I certainly dont hate Christians,I have said before that as a personal faith it has much to recommend it. What I think you mean is why do many people dislike the minority of Fundamentalists who excuse any amount of evil behaviour by citing the will of God, the Islamists are the striking example of this at the moment but Christians can be just as bad.
As for the Church being nothing but a self help group I would say that it wealds rather more power and influence than your description implies, power can be a force for both good and bad and tends to have a corrupting effect you know.
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Re: definition

Postby satanspaladin on Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:17 am

MR. Nate wrote:
satanspaladin wrote:you are most probably right as stated before not a reader of the bible. just know am all way geting told that i will burn in hell for my life style am a lesbian .so if i am going to burn may as well give the devil a helping hand .he gets the most appalling press and he works so diligently

I don't know, I don't often see threads focused on demeaning the character of Satan, or hear about people blaming Satan for all the problems in their lives. And FYI, theres no act that you can do that guarantees your trip to hell: that ticket is only stamped through rejection of the person and work of Christ. I know more than a couple people saved out of lifestyles that would make everyone assume they were born damned, but at this point, it sure looks like they have been changed.
mr nate i hope you will agree as to appalling press. the evil that men do , the evils of war ,he /she was the most depraved sick evil person all these words you can find in most papers ,web sites most days .has for a trip to hell not so bad if the alternative is to spend eternity with people that think its ok to write dyke lesbo fag gay just to make a cutting remark .as thou any person being homosexual is less deserving of respect than a heterosexual.the anglican church is in disarray over its homosexual bishops /woman as priests the different domination differ on this issue. am sorry to say it will be a long time before i look to the house of god for any kind of salvation ,maybe when he gets his chidren to play nice?
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Postby MeDeFe on Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:33 am

CAPITAL letters.
Maybe you've heard of them sometime?

And there actually is such a thing as a standardized spelling of the english language, even though it hasn't changed much over the last 400 years.

And don't forget about the blanks, they make things like reading a lot easier when they are placed between words or between a punctuation mark and a word (in that order).


That said I weakly agree with a few of your points and turn to other threads where the reading is optically more pleasing.
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Postby Itrade on Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:19 am

Christianity is reassuring. After you die you get to live in a magical happy place where nothing ever goes wrong. And all the bad guys burn forever. Yaaaay.

I think the main reason I'm a Christian is that I would rather believe a happy lie than face the sad truth.
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Postby Jehan on Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:31 am

and after that statement the obvious question follows, your a Christian?!?!?!

also i agree the bible is brutal, i mean this man got beaten, ridiculed and nailed to cross, and He didn't even do anything wrong.
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Postby Itrade on Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:16 am

He was saying things the people in power (the priests) didn't want the people they were controlling to here. If God loved you no matter how much money you gave to the temple then donations would diminish and the priests paychecks would, too. Also if you can just talk to God directly instead of through the priests, then the people wouldn't follow all the extra rules and stuff that were in place to keep the holy men at the top.

Actually, all the above is probably BS. I don't know what I'm talking about, so you can safely disregard that and tl;dr it.

And yes, I'm a Christian. It's more like a boring club than a religion right now, but that's because I'm doing it all wrong and being half-assed. Worse than half-assed. I'm not even quarter-assed on this one. I'm like, one sixteenth-assed. That's not good, because apparently it's everything or nothing. By the time I realize that I'm not assed enough, it will probably already be too late. That's what I get for procrastinating, I guess.
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Postby Jehan on Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:24 am

sorry i havent been reading the thread i just responded to your last post, i was probably out of context when i read it, but Christianity is most certainly not a club, so yeah, if I were you i would try finding the truth behind the lies.
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Postby Itrade on Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:34 am

Yeah, my post was way out of context. I have no idea what you're going on about when you mention the truth behind the lies, though.

I'm upset that nobody mentioned any of those verses I brought up and instead discussed the sabbath, so I'm going to quote them all again until someone makes a comment.

Because I can.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35, King James Version
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


Psalms 137:8-9, King James Version
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.


Numbers 31:15-18, King James Version
And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.

Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.


This one's the rape = marriage one, I threw in verse 30 because it sounds funny.

Dueteronomy 28:28-30
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;

Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

A man shall not take his father's wife, nor discover his father's skirt.


The story of the Levite (a dude from the tribe of Levi, who do the jobs of the priests) and his concubine, which later provokes a war.

Judges 19:21-30 King James Version
So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.

Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.

And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.

Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light.

And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.

And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.

And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
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Re: definition

Postby MR. Nate on Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:59 am

satanspaladin wrote: if the alternative is to spend eternity with people that think its ok to write dyke lesbo fag gay just to make a cutting remark the anglican church is in disarray over its homosexual bishops /woman as priests the different domination differ on this issue. am sorry to say it will be a long time before i look to the house of god for any kind of salvation ,maybe when he gets his chidren to play nice?
"Christians" insulting you is just as much sin as anything else. I cannot defend those actions. They are wrong and they are in direct opposition to what Christ taught. John says that the world is to recognize Christians by their love. That being said, paladin, don't think I'm letting you off the hook. I'm convinced from scripture that homosexuality is sin, but I'm also convinced that all non-marital sex is sin, lust is sin, road rage is sin and a whole list of other things that a lot of us do every day. And none of them make you more or less guilty before God. Everybody is a sinner, and every human being in heaven, with the exception of Jesus Christ, was a sinner when they walked on the earth. We're not saved by not sinning, we're saved by believing that Christ's blood has the power to wash away our sin. Don't ever discount the ability of Gods grace to cover sin.
As for the Anglican (and Presbyterian) disagreements over the ordination of homosexuals, I think it's devolved into somewhat of a blood feud, because it seems clear to me that while one side may have a more biblical stand than the other, both sides have at times been outside of speaking "truth in love" Perhaps CA could shed some more light on the subject, I'm only sort of aware of everything that's going on.

Itrade wrote:Christianity is reassuring. After you die you get to live in a magical happy place where nothing ever goes wrong. And all the bad guys burn forever. Yaaaay.
I think the main reason I'm a Christian is that I would rather believe a happy lie than face the sad truth.

I'm glad your Christianity is reassuring to you, I have had no such luck. There are so many issues that I wrestle with over and over in my mind that I can't even begin to explain. There are few things that are harder for me than just saying "Ok, God, I'm going to let you handle this, and not question what you've said."


Itrade - what do you want? an exegesis of the passages? what's the question?
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Re: definition

Postby satanspaladin on Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:38 pm

MR. Nate wrote:
satanspaladin wrote: if the alternative is to spend eternity with people that think its ok to write dyke lesbo fag gay just to make a cutting remark the anglican church is in disarray over its homosexual bishops /woman as priests the different domination differ on this issue. am sorry to say it will be a long time before i look to the house of god for any kind of salvation ,maybe when he gets his chidren to play nice?
"Christians" insulting you is just as much sin as anything else. I cannot defend those actions. They are wrong and they are in direct opposition to what Christ taught. John says that the world is to recognize Christians by their love. That being said, paladin, don't think I'm letting you off the hook. I'm convinced from scripture that homosexuality is sin, but I'm also convinced that all non-marital sex is sin, lust is sin, road rage is sin and a whole list of other things that a lot of us do every day. And none of them make you more or less guilty before God. Everybody is a sinner, and every human being in heaven, with the exception of Jesus Christ, was a sinner when they walked on the earth. We're not saved by not sinning, we're saved by believing that Christ's blood has the power to wash away our sin. Don't ever discount the ability of Gods grace to cover sin.
As for the Anglican (and Presbyterian) disagreements over the ordination of homosexuals, I think it's devolved into somewhat of a blood feud, because it seems clear to me that while one side may have a more biblical stand than the other, both sides have at times been outside of speaking "truth in love" Perhaps CA could shed some more light on the subject, I'm only sort of aware of everything that's going on.

Itrade wrote:Christianity is reassuring. After you die you get to live in a magical happy place where nothing ever goes wrong. And all the bad guys burn forever. Yaaaay.
I think the main reason I'm a Christian is that I would rather believe a happy lie than face the sad truth.

I'm glad your Christianity is reassuring to you, I have had no such luck. There are so many issues that I wrestle with over and over in my mind that I can't even begin to explain. There are few things that are harder for me than just saying "Ok, God, I'm going to let you handle this, and not question what you've said."


Itrade - what do you want? an exegesis of the passages? what's the question?
Mr Nate May your god be with you and i hope he gives you the eternal salvation of haven.

But as for me ,Well I"ve seen to much hurt and pain in this world to think
very much of any god, JC may have died for humanities sins but the sinning goes on.

God gave us his child to help us find a new way and he made us in his
own image and gave us free will so that we could find enlightenment.

So why all the meddling with his own creation? .

He's supposed to be infallible ,I know we can not understand the complexity of gods mind, But i feel a god who takes credit for creation
could try a little bit harder to get thing perfect first time round.

Just for record i do believe god,I just think he's losing the war and as most people in my life have told me to go to hell is it any wonder i side with the devil .

If god most high angel can not get on with him what chance have I.
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Postby 2dimes on Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:04 pm

Well paladin;

You've seen, " to much hurt and pain in this world " and think, "Gee that's not nearly enough for me, I think I'll choose more for eternity."

Ok have at it.

It would be nice if I could make it so you had better people to hang out with but I can't.

The ones you know are choosing satan just like you. They can claim anything they like but they're actions speak louder than words. So if you want to follow their lead, that's your perogative. The only diference is when you're in hell with them they will be suprised.

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Re: definition

Postby MR. Nate on Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:10 pm

satanspaladin wrote: But i feel a god who takes credit for creation
could try a little bit harder to get thing perfect first time round.

Just for record i do believe god,I just think he's losing the war and as most people in my life have told me to go to hell is it any wonder i side with the devil .

If god most high angel can not get on with him what chance have I.

God did get it right - we ruined it. In our sin we have all rejected God's perfect plan for our lives. Not just as individuals, but as a race, which is why there is so much pain and suffering in the world.

If you think God is losing the war, you and I probably have different definitions of what the requirements for godhood are. To me, in order for God to be God, he has to be omnipotent. Which means that he is allowing the war to go on. We may doubt his wisdom for that, but we can know (if we are confident in his character) that it is ultimately for the good not only of God, but for humanity as well.

As for Satan's rejection of God, I don't think it was an inability to get along, but Satan's desire to usurp God. (Isiah 14:13&14) I think in any just system, banishment is the bare minimum of punishment for that.
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Postby Backglass on Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:29 pm

I saw this today and thought of my buddies Nate, Jay & Luns. :lol:

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Oh...and there are no gods hiding in the bushes. ;)
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Re: definition

Postby joecoolfrog on Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:36 pm

MR. Nate wrote:
satanspaladin wrote: But i feel a god who takes credit for creation
could try a little bit harder to get thing perfect first time round.

Just for record i do believe god,I just think he's losing the war and as most people in my life have told me to go to hell is it any wonder i side with the devil .

If god most high angel can not get on with him what chance have I.

God did get it right - we ruined it. In our sin we have all rejected God's perfect plan for our lives. Not just as individuals, but as a race, which is why there is so much pain and suffering in the world.

If you think God is losing the war, you and I probably have different definitions of what the requirements for godhood are. To me, in order for God to be God, he has to be omnipotent. Which means that he is allowing the war to go on. We may doubt his wisdom for that, but we can know (if we are confident in his character) that it is ultimately for the good not only of God, but for humanity as well.

As for Satan's rejection of God, I don't think it was an inability to get along, but Satan's desire to usurp God. (Isiah 14:13&14) I think in any just system, banishment is the bare minimum of punishment for that.


The thing is I could just as easily argue that God is to blame because he created man imperfectly, same as I would blame the manufacturer if my car kept breaking down. It simply boils down to a matter of faith,you are gambling there is a heaven and I am gambling that there is not 8)
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Postby 2dimes on Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:39 pm

Yeah but it's kind of like eating raw pork and gambling that there's no such thing as worms.

This thread was a good time, later.
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Re: definition

Postby satanspaladin on Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:30 am

MR. Nate wrote:
satanspaladin wrote: But i feel a god who takes credit for creation
could try a little bit harder to get thing perfect first time round.

Just for record i do believe god,I just think he's losing the war and as most people in my life have told me to go to hell is it any wonder i side with the devil .

If god most high angel can not get on with him what chance have I.

God did get it right - we ruined it. In our sin we have all rejected God's perfect plan for our lives. Not just as individuals, but as a race, which is why there is so much pain and suffering in the world.

If you think God is losing the war, you and I probably have different definitions of what the requirements for godhood are. To me, in order for God to be God, he has to be omnipotent. Which means that he is allowing the war to go on. We may doubt his wisdom for that, but we can know (if we are confident in his character) that it is ultimately for the good not only of God, but for humanity as well.

As for Satan's rejection of God, I don't think it was an inability to get along, but Satan's desire to usurp God. (Isiah 14:13&14) I think in any just system, banishment is the bare minimum of punishment for that.


Mr Nate If god is ominpotent and all powerful then all evil can be placed at his feet as the creator of all things.

The fruit of knowledge was placed in the garden and we ate of it and fell,
but he new we would he,s ominpotent .

So why damntion for the sins he made and gave to us in the frist place.

As to satan's desire to usurp god what slave would not wish to be free of his master and god new he would ,remember he;s ominpotent.

So if all his creations are imperfect ,whats going to make paradise any better than all his other mistakes ?

As i've said before not a reader of the bible ,i just live in the world of his devising and if we are the best he can make ,i think we need a new god
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Postby joecoolfrog on Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:57 am

2dimes wrote:Yeah but it's kind of like eating raw pork and gambling that there's no such thing as worms.

This thread was a good time, later.


But we KNOW that eating raw pork is a bad bet and therefore it is an easy decision not to gamble and just walk away. The Christian faith demands that one has to make a decision on whether to accept or reject Jesus , there is no third way though you can of course delay the bet as long as you like.
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Re: definition

Postby MR. Nate on Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:39 am

joecoolfrog wrote:The thing is I could just as easily argue that God is to blame because he created man imperfectly, same as I would blame the manufacturer if my car kept breaking down.

satanspaladin wrote:Mr Nate If god is ominpotent and all powerful then all evil can be placed at his feet as the creator of all things.

The fruit of knowledge was placed in the garden and we ate of it and fell,
but he new we would he,s ominpotent .

So why damntion for the sins he made and gave to us in the frist place.

As to satan's desire to usurp god what slave would not wish to be free of his master and god new he would ,remember he;s ominpotent.

So if all his creations are imperfect ,whats going to make paradise any better than all his other mistakes ?

As i've said before not a reader of the bible ,i just live in the world of his devising and if we are the best he can make ,i think we need a new god

I've answered this so often in different threads that I'm pretty sure MeDeFe or vt could tell you what I'm going to say even before I post.

It comes back to free will. God did not want to make robots, He made creatures who had the free will to love Him or reject Him. He did this knowing that some people would choose to reject Him. But He loved us all enough to create us and allow us to make that choice for ourselves.
When we choose to reject Him (and although I believe in original sin, I also firmly believe that we all DO reject Him personally) we chose sin and it's consequences over what God wants for us: the best. So don't accuse God of "giving" us sin. We chose it, both racially and personally, we decided to take sin over what God had for us. We have the opportunity to change that choice up until the moment we die. That is what damnation is for: a lifetime of rejecting the good God has for you in favor of fulfilling your personal desires.

And I might have some sympathy for Satan if God was less than perfect. If He were vindictive, corrupt or cruel, than Satan may have a case. However, God is perfect - we define justice, love, mercy and grace by His charechter. What is the proper motive for revolting against the rule of a perfect being? His authority? He weilds it perfectly. His justice? It is ALWAYS right. His power? He uses it for OUR benefit.
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Postby MeDeFe on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:02 am

Still, if god is truly omniscient free will is impossible, and I would argue that it's the other way around, gods character has been defined by what we deem to be good.
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Postby jiminski on Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:38 am

Man created God in his own image.

The very simple proof of this is that as ‘man's’ own self perception changes, so does our perception of god.*

This is a good thing because we no longer hold 'an eye for an eye' as integral to divine lore; it was replaced by the marvellous 'turn the other cheek'

But to say that one particular God in a particular epoch was the creator and is by definition omnipotent and omnipresent, you banish all previous believers to- at best eternal death or at worst eternal damnation.

To counter this:

Let's say that the lord is indeed learning and imparting knowledge to his chosen prophets throughout time -
By this reasoning he is neither perfect nor omniscient.

Or that the teachings of the prophets are false and not the word of God-
In which case the bible and the God which you believe in is also false.

Or is he telling us what he knows to be untrue in the hope that we catch up ourselves (freewill)?
Well that seems like the work of a disruptive, mean child taking 3 legs off of a spider to see what happens.

Whichever reason, it seems pretty flawed to me.


I believe in the philosophy of Christ but there is so much nonsense, fear and self-loathing which accompany the dogma of religious teaching.

Blimey! My sister in-law used to hide under the bed every night because she thought that Satan was coming for her sinful soul.
Ok this may not be an accurate perception on her part but a small child is not privy to the nuances of religious doctrine. (i would imagine this hiding place would not fool the lord of darkness either)

By placing 2 sides at war and making tangible the concept of good and evil we distort the explainable emotional reactions to horrific circumstance!

By doing this we perpetuate ‘evil’!



Where is the love!?



*indeed the concept of religion itself has mutated. We worshiped the elements, the Sun, chimera like beings but as mans control over his environment grew, the only thing left to worship was himself.. monotheism arrived!
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Re: definition

Postby satanspaladin on Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:39 am

MR. Nate wrote:
joecoolfrog wrote:The thing is I could just as easily argue that God is to blame because he created man imperfectly, same as I would blame the manufacturer if my car kept breaking down.

satanspaladin wrote:Mr Nate If god is ominpotent and all powerful then all evil can be placed at his feet as the creator of all things.

The fruit of knowledge was placed in the garden and we ate of it and fell,
but he new we would he,s ominpotent .

So why damntion for the sins he made and gave to us in the frist place.

As to satan's desire to usurp god what slave would not wish to be free of his master and god new he would ,remember he;s ominpotent.

So if all his creations are imperfect ,whats going to make paradise any better than all his other mistakes ?

As i've said before not a reader of the bible ,i just live in the world of his devising and if we are the best he can make ,i think we need a new god

I've answered this so often in different threads that I'm pretty sure MeDeFe or vt could tell you what I'm going to say even before I post.

It comes back to free will. God did not want to make robots, He made creatures who had the free will to love Him or reject Him. He did this knowing that some people would choose to reject Him. But He loved us all enough to create us and allow us to make that choice for ourselves.
When we choose to reject Him (and although I believe in original sin, I also firmly believe that we all DO reject Him personally) we chose sin and it's consequences over what God wants for us: the best. So don't accuse God of "giving" us sin. We chose it, both racially and personally, we decided to take sin over what God had for us. We have the opportunity to change that choice up until the moment we die. That is what damnation is for: a lifetime of rejecting the good God has for you in favor of fulfilling your personal desires.

And I might have some sympathy for Satan if God was less than perfect. If He were vindictive, corrupt or cruel, than Satan may have a case. However, God is perfect - we define justice, love, mercy and grace by His charechter. What is the proper motive for revolting against the rule of a perfect being? His authority? He weilds it perfectly. His justice? It is ALWAYS right. His power? He uses it for OUR benefit.


Mr Nate , God is all and yes free wiil means that we have the choice to sin ,but as you say god is all ,just as we define justice,love ,mercy to him by definition greed, hate, sadism are all his to for he is all

I can not find it in my hart to love a God That say i have the gift of love for another woman which he gave me in my creation .
I am supposed to reject the very nature of my being just for salvation.

As to satan Any being would want freedom and equality no matter how kind and just his creator ,what kind of God gives free will to one of his children but not the other?

I am glad you have faith in God I wish i could say the same
Are there many things in this cool-hearted world so utterly exquisite
as the pure love of one woman for another?
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