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Postby static_ice on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:10 pm

Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:13 pm

static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one


Monotheism means BELIEVING in one God.

If it meant worshipping one God, then in some case the Romans and Greeks could be called monotheists, and that's not the case.

Either way, Christians believe in one God and worship one God.
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Postby Blastshot on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:14 pm

static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god
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Postby misterman10 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:15 pm

Blastshot wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god


what the hell? sorry, I just don't understand your point here
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Postby Blastshot on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:18 pm

misterman10 wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god


what the hell? sorry, I just don't understand your point here

The point was, if reddists worship a god that is real(Red god), and greenist worship a god that is fake, and is a utterly horrible religon, greenists are not worshipping red god.

If you dont get it nvm. I just made it up to make my point
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:18 pm

misterman10 wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god


what the hell? sorry, I just don't understand your point here


Pretty much he's saying this.

Some people believe in and worship one God, who exists. Other people believe in and worship another God, who doesn't exist. Though they don't believe in the existence of the other God, they still acknowledge the existence of the other RELIGION, and they're both still momotheism.
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Postby Blastshot on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:19 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
misterman10 wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god


what the hell? sorry, I just don't understand your point here


Pretty much he's saying this.

Some people believe in and worship one God, who exists. Other people believe in and worship another God, who doesn't exist. They're both still momotheism.

BINGO! We have a winner!

And its Monotheism, not momotheism
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Postby misterman10 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:21 pm

Blastshot wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
misterman10 wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god


what the hell? sorry, I just don't understand your point here


Pretty much he's saying this.

Some people believe in and worship one God, who exists. Other people believe in and worship another God, who doesn't exist. They're both still momotheism.

BINGO! We have a winner!

And its Monotheism, not momotheism


oh alright, I just havent really been following this thread so I didn't know the background of the post.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:22 pm

Just refer to this misterman.

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
umanouski wrote:is it true that all monothiestic cultures have the same god? Christians and muslims have the same god, just believe differently from each other? Or is it ONLY christianity?


I've never been totally sure how to explain this, but what it boils down to is point of view. Here's an example:

If I believe that George Washington was the founder of American and subsequently the first president of the united states, and you also believed he was the founder of America but then went on the practice medicine, do we believe in the same George Washington?

You could look at it either way.

In the end, though, I've never seen it as mattering too much...
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Postby static_ice on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:24 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
misterman10 wrote:
Blastshot wrote:
static_ice wrote:
Blastshot wrote:Not necisarily. If there is just 1 god, it does not necisarily mean that they are worshipping the same god. one might be worshipping a god that they made.
Example: Say there is a Red God, if Reddists worshipped him as a monotheistic church, and Greenists worshipped Green God, but there was no green god so they just worship green god, not red.


I don't know... does monotheism mean believing in one god or worshipping one god... because in your example the people believe in 2 gods but only worship one

No, there was only one god(red), but greenists were worshipping green god, which wasnt a god


what the hell? sorry, I just don't understand your point here


Pretty much he's saying this.

Some people believe in and worship one God, who exists. Other people believe in and worship another God, who doesn't exist. Though they don't believe in the existence of the other God, they still acknowledge the existence of the other RELIGION, and they're both still momotheism.


either way, I don't think that you will be wrong just because you think God is different than he really is, or than other people think he is, you still worship a divine being and why would he care if you think he's red or green? he could be blue for all we know :P
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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:44 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:But if there's only one god, then that would mean that they are both worshipping the same one, just that the either have different perceptions about what god is, or different ideas on how to worship him/her.


Like I said. Look at the George Washington example. You could look at it both ways.

Huckleberryhound wrote:The sooner we as a people stop trying to bogus others beliefs, and start consentrating on being good people, the sooner the differences between us will stop being a hinderance.


I don't recall bogusing anyone's beliefs in this thread.

And for all your incessant Catholic-bashing... Pope John Paul II went further than any religious leader in the history of Christianity in reaching out to people of the Islamic faith and various Protestant denominations.



incessant catholic bashing ??? You're weird.

The speach i was talking about was discussed many time by learned people here in "Catholic" southern ireland, in as much as it served no good to the healing of the troubles in this country, and i only mentioned the speach as a response to someone else (the Kurgen) making derogatory remarks about Catholics......You seem quite intelligent, don't spoil it.

And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:48 pm

Hucklberryhound wrote:incessant catholic bashing ??? You're weird.


My apologies, I read back and the "catholic bashing" remarks I was referring to were made by Kurgan.
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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:50 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Hucklberryhound wrote:incessant catholic bashing ??? You're weird.


My apologies, I read back and the "catholic bashing" remarks I was referring to were made by Kurgan.


No worries mate. Us Taoists take a pragmatic view on religion.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:50 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only


It is.

Protestant denominations practice "elements of the truth", but cannot be said to true churches - they broke apostolic succession.

And I'm sure you know that the Catholic Church absolutely condemns the IRA?
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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:54 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only


It is.

Protestant denominations practice "elements of the truth", but cannot be said to true churches - they broke apostolic succession.

And I'm sure you know that the Catholic Church absolutely condemns the IRA?


Strange that you bring the IRA in to this, is it because i said i lived in Ireland ?


If Catholics feel that they are the only true Christian fath, then i feel sorry for them. I'm sure Jesus would not look kindly on such sepratist nonsense.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:58 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only


It is.

Protestant denominations practice "elements of the truth", but cannot be said to true churches - they broke apostolic succession.

And I'm sure you know that the Catholic Church absolutely condemns the IRA?


Strange that you bring the IRA in to this, is it because i said i lived in Ireland ?


If Catholics feel that they are the only true Christian fath, then i feel sorry for them. I'm sure Jesus would not look kindly on such sepratist nonesense.


You mentioned strife in Ireland, my mind jumped to remnants of the IRA.

I think you misunderstand me when I say "the only true Christian faith". We believe that the Orthodox churches are the ones who preserve Christianity in its completeness. That doesn't mean Protestants can't achieve salvation, it just means they're missing out on some beautiful things.

Look at it from the Catholic perspective, and you'll see why we feel sorry for Protestants. They don't have the Eucharist. Unless you believe in the Eucharist, you can't understand how important that is to us, and how much we pity those who don't have regular exposure to it. They don't have Confession, which is similarly a beautiful and refreshing experience.

I recently went to a pan-Christian retreat of sorts called the "Harvest Crusade". It was fun and all, but it didn't feel complete. It was missing the Eucharist. As Catholics, we believe that the Eucharist possesses the true physical presence of Christ, and I'm sure you can understand why that is important to us.

With such a major and beautiful sacrament missing from Protestantism, I'm sure you can see why those who believe in it say that Protestants don't get the full Christian experience.
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Postby Blastshot on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:07 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only


It is.

Protestant denominations practice "elements of the truth", but cannot be said to true churches - they broke apostolic succession.

And I'm sure you know that the Catholic Church absolutely condemns the IRA?


Strange that you bring the IRA in to this, is it because i said i lived in Ireland ?


If Catholics feel that they are the only true Christian fath, then i feel sorry for them. I'm sure Jesus would not look kindly on such sepratist nonesense.


You mentioned strife in Ireland, my mind jumped to remnants of the IRA.

I think you misunderstand me when I say "the only true Christian faith". We believe that the Orthodox churches are the ones who preserve Christianity in its completeness. That doesn't mean Protestants can't achieve salvation, it just means they're missing out on some beautiful things.

Look at it from the Catholic perspective, and you'll see why we feel sorry for Protestants. They don't have the Eucharist. Unless you believe in the Eucharist, you can't understand how important that is to us, and how much we pity those who don't have regular exposure to it. They don't have Confession, which is similarly a beautiful and refreshing experience.

I recently went to a pan-Christian retreat of sorts called the "Harvest Crusade". It was fun and all, but it didn't feel complete. It was missing the Eucharist. As Catholics, we believe that the Eucharist possesses the true physical presence of Christ, and I'm sure you can understand why that is important to us.

With such a major and beautiful sacrament missing from Protestantism, I'm sure you can see why those who believe in it say that Protestants don't get the full Christian experience.

dude, i have no idea what you just said, but it sounded awsome. Im gunna needa find a dictionary to decipher this.

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Postby Huckleberryhound on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:08 pm

OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only


It is.

Protestant denominations practice "elements of the truth", but cannot be said to true churches - they broke apostolic succession.

And I'm sure you know that the Catholic Church absolutely condemns the IRA?


Strange that you bring the IRA in to this, is it because i said i lived in Ireland ?


If Catholics feel that they are the only true Christian fath, then i feel sorry for them. I'm sure Jesus would not look kindly on such sepratist nonesense.


You mentioned strife in Ireland, my mind jumped to remnants of the IRA.

I think you misunderstand me when I say "the only true Christian faith". We believe that the Orthodox churches are the ones who preserve Christianity in its completeness. That doesn't mean they can't achieve salvation, it just means they're missing out on some beautiful things.

Look at it from the Catholic perspective, and you'll see why we feel sorry for Protestants. They don't have the Eucharist. Unless you believe in the Eucharist, you can't understand how important that is to us, and how much we pity those who don't have regular exposure to it. They don't have Confession, which is similarly a beautiful and refreshing experience.

I recently went to a pan-Christian retreat of sorts called the "Harvest Crusade". It was fun and all, but it didn't feel complete. It was missing the Eucharist. As Catholics, we believe that the Eucharist possesses the true physical presence of Christ, and I'm sure you can understand why that is important to us.

With such a major and beautiful sacrament missing from Protestantism, I'm sure you can see why those who believe in it say that Protestants don't get the full Christian experience.


Surely the only thing that matters is the worship of, and love of Christ, and God ??

The thing that struck me about The catholic church is..
a) all the idols in the churches, saint, the virgin mary, and similar False idols that you pray to. This seems strange because God himself told you all not to.

b) The amount of money in the cathedrals creation (and there are some beauties over here in europe), built at a time when the people lived in abject poverty. It is this decedance that spawned the reformation in the first place.

In short...if a man worships alone, in a field (which the covenanters had to, so they could practice their faith without persicution), then he is as much in touch with god as someone surrounded by pomp and ceremony.

Oh, and as for the Catholic church being against the IRA ??? I'm sure that was the official line of the Vatican, but here on the ground was a different matter altogether. It is also worth mentioning that the faith of this once proud catholic country has been sorely tested by the child abuse scandels that the vatican chose to cover up.
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Postby Blastshot on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:11 pm

Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:
OnlyAmbrose wrote:
Huckleberryhound wrote:And seeing you brought it up, Herr Ratiger's speech claimed That Catholisism was the only true Form of christianity...i'll say again only


It is.

Protestant denominations practice "elements of the truth", but cannot be said to true churches - they broke apostolic succession.

And I'm sure you know that the Catholic Church absolutely condemns the IRA?


Strange that you bring the IRA in to this, is it because i said i lived in Ireland ?


If Catholics feel that they are the only true Christian fath, then i feel sorry for them. I'm sure Jesus would not look kindly on such sepratist nonesense.


You mentioned strife in Ireland, my mind jumped to remnants of the IRA.

I think you misunderstand me when I say "the only true Christian faith". We believe that the Orthodox churches are the ones who preserve Christianity in its completeness. That doesn't mean they can't achieve salvation, it just means they're missing out on some beautiful things.

Look at it from the Catholic perspective, and you'll see why we feel sorry for Protestants. They don't have the Eucharist. Unless you believe in the Eucharist, you can't understand how important that is to us, and how much we pity those who don't have regular exposure to it. They don't have Confession, which is similarly a beautiful and refreshing experience.

I recently went to a pan-Christian retreat of sorts called the "Harvest Crusade". It was fun and all, but it didn't feel complete. It was missing the Eucharist. As Catholics, we believe that the Eucharist possesses the true physical presence of Christ, and I'm sure you can understand why that is important to us.

With such a major and beautiful sacrament missing from Protestantism, I'm sure you can see why those who believe in it say that Protestants don't get the full Christian experience.


Surely the only thing that matters is the worship of, and love of Christ, and God ??

The one thing that struck me about The catholic church is..
a) all the idols in the churches, saint, the virgin mary, and similar False idols that you pray to. This seems strange because God himself told you all not to.

b) The amount of money in the cathedrals creation (and there are some beauties over here in europe), built at a time when the people lived in abject poverty. It is this decedance that spawned the reformation in the first place.

In short...if a man worships alone, in a field (which the covenanters had to, so they could practice their faith without persicution), then he is asmuch in touch with god as someone surrounded by pomp and ceremony.

oddly enough, i agree. The 1st reason is the ONLY reason(besides that catholics do everything very,very,very, slowely.) that im not catholic. For me thats 2 much borderline.
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Postby beezer on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:18 pm

The Kurgan wrote:But seriously, the Garden of Eden seems like a bad place to be. Every day would be the same, no new challenges, just endless boredom.


Oh yeah, God's a real killjoy. God's original plan included giving man domain over everything else. He can eat as much as he wants without having to hunt for it. All he has to do is not eat the fruit from one measly tree. Mankind didn't have to work, only enjoy everything in its perfection. He creates a beautiful woman for him to have sex with. On top of that he gets to actually walk and talk with the Creator as a friend.

Sickness, war, murder, and death as a result of sin is much better.
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Postby OnlyAmbrose on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:23 pm

Surely the only thing that matters is the worship of, and love of Christ, and God ??


It's a lot easier to love Christ when he's right there physically in front of you. You wouldn't believe the amazing effects the Eucharist has on people. I described a Catholic retreat I went on in the JF forums- to summarize, there's a lot of joyous crying, laughing, speaking in tongues, and fainting. No matter what the physical reaction, though, the result is the same after every session of adoration- an increased love of God.

Anywho, all the complaints you have are common enough, so I'll give you the rudimentary answers.

a) all the idols in the churches, saint, the virgin mary, and similar False idols that you pray to. This seems strange because God himself told you all not to.


We don't "pray" to them as we "pray" to God. There is no worship involved. There is certainly respect involved.

In essence, though, we pray for the saints to pray for us. Think of prayer as a form of communication to those in heaven. From the Catholic perspective, asking St. Ambrose to pray for me is the same thing as asking Blastshot to pray for me.

b) The amount of money in the cathedrals creation (and there are some beauties over here in europe), built at a time when the people lived in abject poverty. It is this decedance that spawned the reformation in the first place.


I can't think of a better use of material resources than in glorifying God.

Additionally, there is no shortage of charity done within the Catholic Church. Most religious orders (including nuns and the like) are devoted to such service. There is also no shortage of money donated to such endeavors.

I think both purposes are served quite well, in fact.

In short...if a man worships alone, in a field (which the covenanters had to, so they could practice their faith without persicution), then he is as much in touch with god as someone surrounded by pomp and ceremony.


The Bible disagrees.

Matthew 18:20- For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Prayer is stronger in a group. I've certainly experienced the truth in this statement.

Moreover, how "in touch" someone is with God in certain surroundings has a lot to do with personal preference. It's a lot easier to focus in a place of serenity with a group of like-minded individuals.

Oh, and as for the Catholic church being against the IRA ??? I'm sure that was the official line of the Vatican, but here on the ground was a different matter altogether. It is also worth mentioning that the faith of this once proud catholic country has been sorely tested by the child abuse scandels that the vatican chose to cover up.


And I'm sure those responsible for the coverup, if they have passed on, are burning in hell as we speak.
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Postby unriggable on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:23 pm

beezer wrote:
The Kurgan wrote:But seriously, the Garden of Eden seems like a bad place to be. Every day would be the same, no new challenges, just endless boredom.


Oh yeah, God's a real killjoy. God's original plan included giving man domain over everything else. He can eat as much as he wants without having to hunt for it. All he has to do is not eat the fruit from one measly tree. Mankind didn't have to work, only enjoy everything in its perfection. He creates a beautiful woman for him to have sex with. On top of that he gets to actually walk and talk with the Creator as a friend.

Sickness, war, murder, and death as a result of sin is much better.


Shame none of that actually happened, and its just a way to blame people (who aren't alive anymore) for the problems of the world.
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Postby static_ice on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:24 pm

unriggable wrote:
beezer wrote:
The Kurgan wrote:But seriously, the Garden of Eden seems like a bad place to be. Every day would be the same, no new challenges, just endless boredom.


Oh yeah, God's a real killjoy. God's original plan included giving man domain over everything else. He can eat as much as he wants without having to hunt for it. All he has to do is not eat the fruit from one measly tree. Mankind didn't have to work, only enjoy everything in its perfection. He creates a beautiful woman for him to have sex with. On top of that he gets to actually walk and talk with the Creator as a friend.

Sickness, war, murder, and death as a result of sin is much better.


Shame none of that actually happened, and its just a way to blame people (who aren't alive anymore) for the problems of the world.


its not that we blame dead people and do nothing, we realize our responsibility to fix these problems...
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Postby unriggable on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:38 pm

static_ice wrote:
unriggable wrote:
beezer wrote:
The Kurgan wrote:But seriously, the Garden of Eden seems like a bad place to be. Every day would be the same, no new challenges, just endless boredom.


Oh yeah, God's a real killjoy. God's original plan included giving man domain over everything else. He can eat as much as he wants without having to hunt for it. All he has to do is not eat the fruit from one measly tree. Mankind didn't have to work, only enjoy everything in its perfection. He creates a beautiful woman for him to have sex with. On top of that he gets to actually walk and talk with the Creator as a friend.

Sickness, war, murder, and death as a result of sin is much better.


Shame none of that actually happened, and its just a way to blame people (who aren't alive anymore) for the problems of the world.


its not that we blame dead people and do nothing, we realize our responsibility to fix these problems...


The only way to fix war, famine, and pain of all sorts is to worship somebody who died 2000 years ago.
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Postby luns101 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:50 pm

unriggable wrote:The only way to fix war, famine, and pain of all sorts is to worship somebody who died 2000 years ago.


- EDIT - The original point was that the Garden of Eden wasn't boring. Nobody made the point that worshiping Jesus was going to end all bad things.
Last edited by luns101 on Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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