Lent, a topic for Christians

[millej11]

Blackglass, please don't critisize us Christians for trying to make a difference.

Um...I'm not.

...and out of curiosity...how (and for what) exactly are you "making a difference"?

They will know we are Christians by our love towards others. If even being kind to someone isn't a big enough difference to you than you are expecting too much from us. Not that there should be anything expected at all.

If you Christians were making a difference there would be a difference

I see a difference every day.

[Backglass]

If even being kind to someone isn't a big enough difference to you than you are expecting too much from us. Not that there should be anything expected at all.

OK...so you believe you are "making a difference" (in what? The world I assume?) by being kind to others? Is that what I gather? I feel like I'm pulling teeth here!

(BTW: One must not be religious to be kind to ones fellow man. Some of the kindest people I have ever met were not christians.)

I see a difference every day.

Feel free to explain what you see "every day" Senor Vague...

[millej11]

If even being kind to someone isn't a big enough difference to you than you are expecting too much from us. Not that there should be anything expected at all.

OK...so you believe you are "making a difference" (in what? The world I assume?) by being kind to others? Is that what I gather? I feel like I'm pulling teeth here!

(BTW: One must not be religious to be kind to ones fellow man. Some of the kindest people I have ever met were not christians.)

I see a difference every day.

Feel free to explain what you see "every day" Senor Vague...

Feel free to tell us what we are doing that causes enough harm to raise speculation.

[Backglass]

Feel free to tell us what we are doing that causes enough harm to raise speculation.

C'mon now...try to answer at least one question instead of running in circles. You can do it! I have FAITH in you!

[unriggable]

I don't see how non christians aren't making a difference...don't denounce atheists, we all have seperate philosophies.

But anywways, I dont want to get too involved. Take it away, jesus fans.

[millej11]

Feel free to tell us what we are doing that causes enough harm to raise speculation.

C'mon now...try to answer at least one question instead of running in circles. You can do it! I have FAITH in you!

lol, but I like circles.

[2dimes]

I'm consistantly suprised by people and our natural tendency to be religious.

I would say it is our human tendency to be superstitious...it was a primitive survival instinct long ago, and some of us still have it.

You don't see much of the cool superstitions anymore. ie. "Oops spilled the salt." toss some over the shoulder.

I think there is probably lots of people running superstitions but now it's not socially acceptable, so it's much more likely to be things that are easier to hide.

I know what you like to compare religion with that, but I find superstitions to be less likely to be presented as something you need to be a part of. I've never had anyone come to the door and explain how important it is for me to join them in the belief in things other than thier church and or profit guy.

[Backglass]

You don't see much of the cool superstitions anymore. ie. "Oops spilled the salt." toss some over the shoulder.

You mean like saying "god bless you" when somebody sneezes, or crossing oneself when you see something unfortunate?

[2dimes]

Ok, I'll still take that way over "I know him to be a true profit." and again you just don't hear it as much in these modern times.

I just noticed a nice use of "what" in place of "that" in my post but I'm not going to fix it.

[Kahless]

Ok, I'll still take that way over "I know him to be a true profit." and again you just don't hear it as much in these modern times.

Intentional typo?

[2dimes]

Ha, I wish that's a good one!

[CrazyAnglican]

I don't see how non christians aren't making a difference...don't denounce atheists, we all have seperate philosophies.

But anywways, I dont want to get too involved. Take it away, jesus fans.

I really couldn't agree more. We get caught up in the negative battles. Equating religious belief with superstition or lack thereof with somehow being ambivalent to evil.

If you step in front of a bus to save someone else, with no belief in an eternal reward, then are you being more moral than I am. I'd say yes. You are also behaving like Christ, which means nothing to you, but does to me and I think would to him.

If I stand up to evil in the world believing it to be the work of the Devil, Am I, in my ignorance, doing the same service to the world that I would be if I did not believe?

Next world or not. Christian or not , we are all have free will and the consequences of our choices.

[2dimes]

Since you bumped it I can't stay out.

I totally agree with your last post CrazyAnglican. I believe that a good deed even if done for the wrong motive is better than a bad deed done for the right motive. Things are kind of complicated in this world.

If you feed hungry people and shelter the homless yet you are doing it strictly to skim the funds and by masions, fancy cars, yachts etc. I still think that's a pretty great thing.

If you shoot a Doctor because you think you'll save babies from being aborted, that's still wrong.

I personally think as soon as a sperm fertalizes an egg it's a life but if you don't, then go ahead and have an abortion. I suppose I'm prochoice and pro life.

Don't get the wrong idea, I will take physical measures to defend children, even against mere physical abuse. But if you want to eat your two year old, what ever.

[2dimes]

You know, it's interesting... this mockery of the Catholic's faith is weird. Why do you people care if they publically proclaim their faith as dictated by Catholic tradition?

I might be totally ignorant as to the value of this thing with the ashes on your head to "publicly proclaim".

But I read Matthew 6 to be Jesus saying not to do things just to show the public how holy you are, it even includes "wash your face".

Matthew 6
Giving to the Poor and Prayer
1"Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven.

16"Whenever you fast, do not put on a gloomy face as the hypocrites do, for they neglect their appearance so that they will be noticed by men when they are fasting Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
17"But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face

18so that your fasting will not be noticed by men, but by your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

So, yeah, I'm a jerk and all but it's not in latin, greek or hebrew anymore. Everyone can read the bible and you don't have to go to classes to be taught what it says. It's there for you to interpret in a personal way.

The Catholic church seems to be a perfect modern day replica of the pharisees.

I know there's lots of great people that are Catholic, I've met tons.

One of my best friends is one, he owns an adult video store. One of the few people I was allowed to keep as a freind after I got married. Still I don't see him much.

[CrazyAnglican]

If you feed hungry people and shelter the homless yet you are doing it strictly to skim the funds and by masions, fancy cars, yachts etc. I still think that's a pretty great thing.

Hmmm. This is an interesting take on that. As a Chrisitian, I believe that motive is central to the issue. There is a great difference between doing something in the hope of a reward, and doing something as a front for immorality (ie. misappropriation of funds). Also, when I wrote that I was intentionally leaving out the matte of Faith that says none of us can deserve salvation. I did this because I thought it would be meaningless in the context of the argument. But here it has meaning, The Christian who steps in front of a bus to save another is doing it altruistically as well. None of his acts earn him a place in heaven. Salvation is a gift given by a loving saviour, it is not a reward earned by being a good boy.

If you shoot a Doctor because you think you'll save babies from being aborted, that's still wrong.

Yeah murder is wrong. It's one of our big ten no-no's. Pretty much any group has its lunatic fringe. It's pretty well publicized in this particular minority of Christians. Thankfully, it's a real minority, I can't remember the last report I heard of this type of thing. Here I'd say both the action and the motive is wrong though. I'm more of a bug the heck out of them with argument and hope they see the Holy Spirit kind of guy.


You guys can see that in me, right?

I personally think as soon as a sperm fertalizes an egg it's a life but if you don't, then go ahead and have an abortion. I suppose I'm prochoice and pro life.

Yeah me too. In general, I'm Pro-Choice, but my choice is life.

[2dimes]

You can fix your end quotes with a / .

One of the problems central to material possesions is that when given the oportunity to aquire them we tend to justify our right to own things.

Initially the motive was pure, set up a fund to feed the hungry. I work real hard at the organisation so I deserve a fair wage, one day I deserve a slightly newer Porche.

I'll just take a little loan here. I'll pay it back from my fair wages.

Ooops, I've skimmed milions of dollars from the organisation.

[CrazyAnglican]

Thanks, I was in a hurry and haven't gone back to revise
Okay revision's posted
I agree, but again that goes back to motive. Your post seems to parallel the Christian author C.S. Lewis from "The Screwtape Letters". "The road to Hell is a gentle slope downward with no road signs along the way" I'm paraphrasing, but I think that is the jist of it.

This is where the right church can be helpful, at least to me. My church, for example, has a tradition of accountability that isn't what you might think. I have guys that I go to when I have screwed up. I tell them, and it stays with them. They do, however, remember and are watchful that I improve in this area. It also provides more incentive for me to fix the problem rather than hoping nobody noticed, as I've taken the initiative to make sure somebody noticed.
This may be uncomfortable for some but works for me. It's a way to check myself against others with similar beliefs. This is completely nonjudgemental. Everytime that I have done it, it has lead to a greater friendship with the other guy. We both realize that we screw up from time to time, but are honestly trying to become better servants of Christ. It's a way for us to make the gentle slope an upward one that has road signs.

[2dimes]

Yeah I see what you're saying.

I'll paraphrase Paul who basically said, "We're all scum of which I'm the worst."

That totally holds true for me.

I agree that having people you trust to be a good friend and hold you accountable helps but...

I am in no way suggesting anything negative regarding you personally or the idea of accountability partners.
Sometimes the friend ends up helping you pull things off.

Check out Jim Baker for a extreme case. I believe the guy had the right motives going in. He just fell down somewhere along the way. His accountability partner was right in on everything.

[CrazyAnglican]

I can certainly see your point here. There is nothing essentially anti - Christian or even out of line with Christian doctrine in saying that people sometimes fall victim to temptation. It's not only limited to material things Jerry Falwell was an example as well. You are right, as well, that there is the danger of others becoming confederates instead of keeping me accountable.

I would add to your paraphrase of Paul. If I am right about the passage you are referencing he went on to say that it is in this weakness that I find strength. I realize that I am not capable of being essentially good on my own, So I realize that I have to rely on Christ and his mercy.

I think this passage speaks about the danger of pride. If I realize I'm a jerk, and I've done something that jerks do. No problem. Hey everybody, I was being a jerk again, Sorry.

If I think of myself as a saint, and I act like a jerk. Hmmmm, there must have been some saintly reason for my jerklike behavior. It might have even been someone else's fault. That guy pushed my buttons so much I had to be a jerk. You'd have done the same, right?

Pride, even though we can think of it as a good thing. Positive self image and all that. While it doesn't seem a terrible thing on its own can really escalate a bad situation.

And no I didn't think you were attacking me or my church. Hey I'm a jerk, and I hang out with other jerks. So we're cool with it.

[CrazyAnglican]

Hey 2dimes and benmore have either of you gotten a response from me?

My messages are going into my outbox instead of my sentbox, and I'm really not sure why.

[s.xkitten]

the messege goes into your outbox until the person you sent them to reads them...well, technically, until they open their inbox...then they move to your sent box

[CrazyAnglican]

the messege goes into your outbox until the person you sent them to reads them...well, technically, until they open their inbox...then they move to your sent box

Cool thanks, I'm ...... um ...... just being ignored then huh?

[s.xkitten]

well...i can't answer that one...sorry, its not a computer or website malfunction on that one...they could just be not logged on...

[CrazyAnglican]

Oh yeah, your just trying to make me feel better I like that in a person.

I like the Guy Fawlkes Day reference too>

[Backglass]

I really couldn't agree more. We get caught up in the negative battles. Equating religious belief with superstition or lack thereof with somehow being ambivalent to evil.

Agreed. Yet on this very forum, someone said "How does an atheist know what a good deed is?"

If you step in front of a bus to save someone else, with no belief in an eternal reward, then are you being more moral than I am. I'd say yes. You are also behaving like Christ, which means nothing to you, but does to me and I think would to him.

I would say your are just behaving like a caring human being and if your Mr. christ fit's that description, wonderful.