Jesse, Bad Boy: a discussion

[everywhere116]

Harlem and Brooklyn and bits of LA is not really "America." By financial standards, I am lower middle class. Those people that you are calling "poor" probably make about what I make, but they're "poor" because they make poor financial decisions. Just because I make smarter financial decisions but make the same amount of money they make does not make me "wealthy" by American standards.

If you think people who live in the ghettos of LA or New York are there because of poor financial choice then you're an idiot and I really can't be bothered to argue it with you. I've not travelled spectacularly widely in the US, but I do believe I've seen both sides of the coin in regards to wealth. Helping out teaching kids to DJ in the projects in LA to wandering around Beverly Hills.

You seriously think its just financial choice which determines how a person does in life? Some of the guys I met had now chance of getting out. The school system taught them nothing the workplace would value, couldn't get to college, couldn't get job skills... the places where their fathers had worked were laying off labour so there was no real chance of unskilled work. its a cycle and for many its impossible to break without charity or welfare of some kind. Take a look at your country.

Charity and welfare create more poverty.

[Guiscard]

evidence?

Welfare state has been pretty siccessful in Britain, in my opinion.

[benmor78]

If you think people who live in the ghettos of LA or New York are there because of poor financial choice then you're an idiot and I really can't be bothered to argue it with you. I've not travelled spectacularly widely in the US, but I do believe I've seen both sides of the coin in regards to wealth. Helping out teaching kids to DJ in the projects in LA to wandering around Beverly Hills.

I'd suggest the smartest financial decision those people could make would be to move out of LA or New York. They're ridiculously expensive places to live, so, yes, even if they haven't compounded poor choices (unplanned pregnancies, carrying consumer debt, not investing), then they are making a poor financial choice by choosing to live in those two locations.

How much time did you spend here in the U.S.?

You seriously think its just financial choice which determines how a person does in life? Some of the guys I met had now chance of getting out. The school system taught them nothing the workplace would value, couldn't get to college, couldn't get job skills... the places where their fathers had worked were laying off labour so there was no real chance of unskilled work. its a cycle and for many its impossible to break without charity or welfare of some kind. Take a look at your country.

I do look at my country. I live here, after all. In my experience, there's always a job of some type out there. Don't tell me "it's a bad job" or "it's a job I don't want." If you don't have a job, you damn well better take whatever job you can get and stop waiting for the one that involves taking inventory for a blind liquor store owner and pays $100 / hour.

[Guiscard]

A little help flashleg8? Anyone?

[everywhere116]

Actually, look at many welfare states in Europe. Germany and the Scandinavian countries are all welfare states. But thier poverty rate is higher than ours. When Regan took over and cut down welfare in the US, the poverty rate went down. Also, think about it. If someone could get by without working on government assistance, would they work? Of course not! Less welfare encorages people to go out and work to sustain themselves, where they will have a better life.

[Guiscard]

Again, the assertion that poor people will do everything in their power to sit on their ass and leech.

As I've said before, and apparently neither of you have experienced, there is a cylcle which for millins is impossible to break. I stated personal experience of various reasons why there was no real hope for some of the guys I met but the response seems to be 'well they should just get a job and manage their finances better'. If some of these people were given, say, enough welfare or charity to start up a small business, say, or buy a car so they could work as a taxi driver, or perhaps enought o go to college and learn a trade then they'd be the most grateful person you'd ever meet. One guy I met through the project I was lending a hand with was given a grant to buy some records and become a DJ, and he'd started earning a wage DJing in local clubs. This is my experience of the US, let alone the UK where I could go on for much longer about our problems in some areas (like the estate outside my window, for example...).

[benmor78]

](*,) A little help flashleg8? Anyone?

I'm not sure what the problem is, here. I am telling you that, as someone who has experienced American poverty, and as someone who lives here, I think you have a distorted view of the issue (particularly if your only American experiences have been New York and LA). That's like my visiting London and thinking I know the problems of North Wales.

[Guiscard]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1712965,00.html

[Guiscard]

If you'd been to London and visited, say, one of the Clapham estates then you'd have seen some of the worst poverty. You'd be perfectly valid to comment on it.

[benmor78]

Again, the assertion that poor people will do everything in their power to sit on their ass and leech.

That isn't what I'm asserting.

[/quote]As I've said before, and apparently neither of you have experienced, there is a cylcle which for millins is impossible to break.[/quote]

What are you, my biographer? What do you know about what I've experienced and what I haven't? I've *been* poor in the U.S. Have you?

I stated personal experience of various reasons why there was no real hope for some of the guys I met but the response seems to be 'well they should just get a job and manage their finances better'. If some of these people were given, say, enough welfare or charity to start up a small business, say, or buy a car so they could work as a taxi driver, or perhaps enought o go to college and learn a trade then they'd be the most grateful person you'd ever meet.

Pretty easy for a poor person to go to college, here. It's a question of motivation. As for the small business, there are small business administration loans and grants for that purpose. And you don't learn trades in college, it's simply a red badge of courage which shows potential employers that you have the motivation and intelligence to stick something out for four years while going to keggers and having drunk women barf in your pubic hair.

One guy I met through the project I was lending a hand with was given a grant to buy some records and become a DJ, and he'd started earning a wage DJing in local clubs. This is my experience of the US, let alone the UK where I could go on for much longer about our problems in some areas (like the estate outside my window, for example...).

Look out, Bill Gates, here comes DJ Poor Guy!

[Guiscard]

Ok well I give in. If all people were a bit more like you we'd all be happy and successful... the drug problem would probably be eliminated too...

edit: By the way, did you read the article? even if you're gonna rip it to shreds at least give it a read.

[benmor78]

You'll find few people as hard on the currently poor as the recently poor. I do my part, though, through charitable organizations and volunteer work.

[Guiscard]

Why? Its their fault through poor financial management and laziness... Why help them?

[benmor78]

Why? Its their fault through poor financial management and laziness... Why help them?

That's not what I said, is it?

Either way, the charities I choose to support involve people that are currently victims of the vagaries of others. I used to work in divorces before I entered the securities industry, so I do some volunteer work with Safeplace.

[flashleg8]

Ohh, you go away to some work for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose!

Where do I start.....

First I find the arguments put forth by benmor78 and everywhere116 abhorrent that some how the poor are at fault for their own poverty. I have tried in my previous posts to highlight some of the problems keeping poor people uneducated by relating to examples but apparently you refuse to read this as they are not US based examples so I will steer clear of this in future to avoid an easy out for you.

First your point that poor people can always find a job. While it is true that there is a large amount of unfilled vacancies, you must understand that a lot of companies will refuse to hire someone without relevant experience or require minimum education levels. As I previously pointed out the social pressures make reaching these minimum education levels tougher for children from households below the poverty line. People in the lowest income brackets and social strata’s are often ghettoised in economic black spots. You seem to have some wishful thinking that these people can just up and move to some other area where there is more work. This is a vast undertaking for any family, it must be a torturous decision for a family living on the bread line- how do they save enough money to move (traveling expenses, initial deposits for new accommodation) and what a massive uprooting for themselves and their children to take them away from their community/family/friends. How can they secure a job without going for interviews? and most employers would be reluctant to employ someone on the basis that they will move half way across the country to find a job. What do you want them to do, walk from town to town looking for work? Like a third world shanty-town dweller? You are supposed to be the leader of the free world!
Guiscard says he has personal experience working in some of these ghettoised areas - he will be able to tell you better than I, I'm sure of the other associated problems these areas have such as drug abuse high levels of crime etc which all go towards making the area an economic blackspot decreasing investment and ultimately lowering wages.

You can miss this bracketed part out as it refers to the UK
[My brother lectures woodwork skills to youths from deprived areas on Glasgow for a EU funded social inclusion project. These kids are almost all gang members and they find it impossible to travel to jobs outwith their housing schemes as they are recognised as gang members when in other areas of the city. This leads again to ghettoisation and restriction of job opportunities, I have no doubt this is similar in parts of inner city US.]

Another few points regarding so called jobs available: most of these available jobs are for such a low wage (minimum wage or just above) that it becomes economically difficult to take this job and still meet household commitments. Remember that child care costs (and if you’re having the people moving away from their extended family it will be more difficult) will have to be met along with traveling expenses. These “abundance of jobs” are also often only part time or temporary contracts based. These create problems for people wanting some sort of financial security and are often pointless for someone who wants to rejoin the job market to create a career for themselves. Even simple problems like buying a suit for a job interview can become stumbling points for people living on the breadline. A problem for long term unemployed people (especially those that have been made redundant from a previous job) is that they find it difficult to accept a serious cut in wages and a drop in position. It can be a great philological barrier for a hard working man of forty made redundant from a manufacturing job (for example) to accept a job flipping burgers when he has a proven skill set and as lot his job through no fault of his own. Employers are reluctant to higher older people to junior positions also. I myself had problems getting a job after leaving uni and found it very psychologically demanding getting rejection after rejection when applying for positions, you must remember how this can effect people and what a self esteem lowering effect it can have on unemployed people, leading to these people feeling “they are on the scrap head” and becoming disillusioned with mainstream society.
Your other point that welfare somehow makes people less willing to work I also totally reject. If you have ever lived on the amount of money given out for unemployment benefit you will know that it is pitiful and no where near enough to support a basic lifestyle. I refuse to believe what you and the right wing press spout that the majority of people unemployed would rather have benefits than work. Everyone I know who has ever been unemployed (and living in West Central Scotland this is no small number) has always hated being on the dole. The money is rubbish and it’s very demorolising. Not something anyone would choose to make a “career” of.
Lots of other social problems create barriers preventing the poorest working - to take the LA ghettos example again, youths are often caught up in the gang culture early on, - leading to possibly getting a criminal record for minor crimes which will lead to them getting rejected from jobs without having a chance to prove they have changed. The same goes for people who have had addiction problems in the past. Its all to easy to be clever in hindsight and say they shouldn't have done it, but does stealing a car when your 15 really mean that you are condemned to poverty your whole life?
You also seem to have some fascist ideas that just because a person is a) poor and b) single they are somehow not allowed to have children? First of all there are religious reasons why some couples choose not to take sexual precautions, also there is lack of basic sex education in some of the poorer quarters. I reject completely the idea that one of the ways out of poverty would be to have less children - this is first of all against a persons basic human rights and second of all (if you want a colder more objective reason) the birth rate in Western countries is falling and will cause problems to the pensions systems with an aging workforce, therefore we should be actively encouraging more children - not the opposite.

And benmore78 I am not disputing the fact that you have made a comfortable living out of wise investments and hard work, but to expect someone who has only a basic reading ability to understand the complicated financial sector is asking a lot. Most people in the poorer section of society are crippled by debt, while I partially accept that they are a factor in this for living above their means – but it is definitely the fault of credit card companies and banks giving massive credit limits to people who cannot possibly afford to pay it back. The credit arrangements are often complicated and deliberately tricky even for a uni graduate like myself to understand never mind someone who never finished high school. It is also the fault of the consumerist society, pressurising people into buying stuff they don’t need and can’t afford.

Which leads me to my final statement that I am a communist anyway and I completely reject the whole notion of wage slaves working in a capitalist consumerist society. The extreme poverty and massive disparity in standards of living you are witnessing in the United States is merely a symptom of the unregulated greed that is present in Western Society.

[/rant]

[vtmarik]

Amen brother!

[everywhere116]

flashleg, your arguement is a load of crap.

First off, you claim that people cannot get an education based on where they live, but all public schools here are free all the way to high school, and community colleges are not expensive. If someone doesnt have the education to get a job, it means they dropped out of high school, not a good choice at all.

Second, you claim that it is not easy to get a job. Yet unemployment is going down. That means that jobs are being created, thus employing the poor. You say that people do not want to move from town to town looking for work. I call that laziness. If that is what you have to do to get a job, that is what you have to do. If you are not qualified to get a job, that goes back to education.

You also talk of people who are in gang, commit crimes, and are addicted to drugs. Don't get me started about that. If you are a criminal or have a criminal record, let me ask you, why did you break the law? For all those people who think it is cool, I have no sympathy for you if you cannot find a job because of it. Same goes for gangs and drugs. Did people force you to commit crimes? Of course not!

Then you rant about kids. I do believe that you cause yourself to have kids. A stork doesnt just bring them to you. You are not saying that they have a right to children, you are saying that people have a right to sex. I am saying that if they cannot take care of the children that may result, they shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Learn to take responsibility for your own actions.

benmore's lifestyle is based on his smart financial choices. If someone cannot handle money properly, they should go back to school/have finished thier education in the first place. Refer to my arguement on education.

If someone is in debt, it is thier own fault for borroweing so much that you cannot pay back. If poor people take thier loans and go on shopping sprees, I will not have any sympathy when they want thier creditors to pardon them. As I said before, learn to take responsibility for your own actions.

You close your arguement by saying your a communist. I will bet that Cuba's lowest poverty rate since Castro took over is higher than America's highest.

[benmor78]

Ok well I give in. If all people were a bit more like you we'd all be happy and successful... the drug problem would probably be eliminated too...

edit: By the way, did you read the article? even if you're gonna rip it to shreds at least give it a read.

I read it. I thought it was kind of amusing that in discussing the American poor, the lede focused on a rural poor family with litter covering the dirt road leading to their house and patroled by stray dogs... those two things, particularly, are problems the family could remedy fairly easily. Either way, the article is rife with stereotypical views of the American poverty situation, and I don't really consider it a serious article.

[benmor78]

For the most part, I agree with the response to flashleg above. I'd also point out that using Che as your avatar with no apparent irony... lord, that's sad.

[XenHu]

flashleg, your arguement is a load of crap.

First off, you claim that people cannot get an education based on where they live, but all public schools here are free all the way to high school, and community colleges are not expensive. If someone doesnt have the education to get a job, it means they dropped out of high school, not a good choice at all.

Second, you claim that it is not easy to get a job. Yet unemployment is going down. That means that jobs are being created, thus employing the poor. You say that people do not want to move from town to town looking for work. I call that laziness. If that is what you have to do to get a job, that is what you have to do. If you are not qualified to get a job, that goes back to education.

You also talk of people who are in gang, commit crimes, and are addicted to drugs. Don't get me started about that. If you are a criminal or have a criminal record, let me ask you, why did you break the law? For all those people who think it is cool, I have no sympathy for you if you cannot find a job because of it. Same goes for gangs and drugs. Did people force you to commit crimes? Of course not!

Then you rant about kids. I do believe that you cause yourself to have kids. A stork doesnt just bring them to you. You are not saying that they have a right to children, you are saying that people have a right to sex. I am saying that if they cannot take care of the children that may result, they shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Learn to take responsibility for your own actions.

benmore's lifestyle is based on his smart financial choices. If someone cannot handle money properly, they should go back to school/have finished thier education in the first place. Refer to my arguement on education.

If someone is in debt, it is thier own fault for borroweing so much that you cannot pay back. If poor people take thier loans and go on shopping sprees, I will not have any sympathy when they want thier creditors to pardon them. As I said before, learn to take responsibility for your own actions.

You close your arguement by saying your a communist. I will bet that Cuba's lowest poverty rate since Castro took over is higher than America's highest.

Do you work for Bush?





-X

[Neutrino]

flashleg, your arguement is a load of crap.

First off, you claim that people cannot get an education based on where they live, but all public schools here are free all the way to high school, and community colleges are not expensive. If someone doesnt have the education to get a job, it means they dropped out of high school, not a good choice at all.

And all of your public schools are full of uninspired teachers, outdated learning materials, viscous bullys, and precisely no reason to continue going there.

Second, you claim that it is not easy to get a job. Yet unemployment is going down. That means that jobs are being created, thus employing the poor. You say that people do not want to move from town to town looking for work. I call that laziness. If that is what you have to do to get a job, that is what you have to do. If you are not qualified to get a job, that goes back to education.

So are they supposed to walk, dragging their 60-70 year old parents with them as they walk the 50-100 km to the next town, that is almost identical to th one they just left?

You also talk of people who are in gang, commit crimes, and are addicted to drugs. Don't get me started about that. If you are a criminal or have a criminal record, let me ask you, why did you break the law? For all those people who think it is cool, I have no sympathy for you if you cannot find a job because of it. Same goes for gangs and drugs. Did people force you to commit crimes? Of course not!

So... these 15 year old kids, with minimal education, ruled buy their hormones, and egged on buy their peers are supposed to calmly refuse to do anything

Then you rant about kids. I do believe that you cause yourself to have kids. A stork doesnt just bring them to you. You are not saying that they have a right to children, you are saying that people have a right to sex. I am saying that if they cannot take care of the children that may result, they shouldn't have had sex in the first place. Learn to take responsibility for your own actions.

And these hormone saturated, bored teenagers are supposed to restrain all their natural urges in the face of logic? I think not!

benmore's lifestyle is based on his smart financial choices. If someone cannot handle money properly, they should go back to school/have finished thier education in the first place. Refer to my arguement on education.

How are they supposed to know how to invest properly if they have minimal education, and no money in the bank?

If someone is in debt, it is thier own fault for borroweing so much that you cannot pay back. If poor people take thier loans and go on shopping sprees, I will not have any sympathy when they want thier creditors to pardon them. As I said before, learn to take responsibility for your own actions.

But people want to get out of their class, pretend they are better than everyone else. When they come into a bit of money, they will use it to try to get some basic luxeries for themself.

You close your arguement by saying your a communist. I will bet that Cuba's lowest poverty rate since Castro took over is higher than America's highest.

And Cubas population of (Insert correct number here) is supposed to work at how many low paying agricultural jobs (all thats available) exactly?

That is all.

[XenHu]

Well said sir!


-X

[benmor78]

My eyes just rolled out of my skull and went bouncing down the street.

[XenHu]

Wow...

How creative..

jackass







-X

[everywhere116]

Neutrino, I will now deal with your responses in order.

1. I would not know how bad these problems are because I have never been to a public school. But I still stand by my claim that the opportunity for education is still there.

2.If that is the least you have to do to get a job, you have to do it. Do you see an alternative?

3-7. You have the most piss-poor logic I have ever seen. By your logic, if someone doesn't study for a test, the smart kid is obliged to give them the answers. That is simply not so. I say, do the smart thing, rise above hormones and peer-pressure. If you live as you please without thinking ahead, you better be able to pay the consequenses down the road. this can also be fixed with education. (opportunity for it is still there.)

8. I have no idea what you mean by this statement.