Ukraine unbroken three years into Putin's War

[saxitoxin]

Well, now we find out if Europe will rise to the occasion, or not.

If they did, that'd be great. That's what we've wanted all along.

That said, Europe hasn't been able to get Denmark and Sweden to agree on how to toll the Øresund Bridge and they've been trying for 25 years. Europe has been talking about becoming a leader since the 1950s. Who knows, maybe that'll change. But now that the gravy train has stopped running, Ukraine has about 30 days left before they'll be fighting with sticks and rocks.

Even Lindsay Graham, who has been to Ukraine eight times and is the most vile of neoconservative Russsophobic warmongers on the planet, is now saying Zelenskyy needs to be removed from office --- \

[saxitoxin]

The BBC is saying it'll take 20 years for Europe to be ready to fill the gap. It has voluntarily let its armies atrophy to the point that they are merely an auxiliary force to the U.S. military, incapable of independent action.

The question is not just whether Europe has the will: does it have the numbers too?

The short answer is no.

Britain is not alone in cutting its armed forces in response to the end of the Cold War. That trend in Europe is slowly being reversed, with more nations increasing defence spending.

But Europe, on its own, would not be able to provide a force of 100-200,000 international troops, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky suggests would be needed to deter Russia from attacking again.

Instead, Western officials have said they're thinking of a force of up to 30,000 troops.

But these same Western officials acknowledge that this would not be enough, hence the calls for a US "backstop" - "to have the confidence that whatever forces are deployed will not be challenged by Russia" and to "give the prime minister confidence that he can deploy British forces safely".

Officials believe that, at the very least, the US could provide oversight to any European forces with a "command and control element" and US fighter jets ready to respond from its airbases in Poland and Romania. Europe cannot match American space-based surveillance or intelligence-gathering capabilities.

It could also agree to continuing to supply Ukraine with weapons.

While Europe has recently overtaken the US in terms of the proportion of Western weapons supplied to Ukraine, one Western source said the US had provided "the cream" - such as long range missiles and air defence systems.

European nations also do not have the necessary enablers to conduct large-scale military operations on their own. The supply of Western weapons to Ukraine has been dependent on US logistics.

Nato's bombing campaign over Libya in 2011 also highlighted deficiencies - with European nations supposedly taking the lead, but still dependent on US support. Allies relied on US refuelling tankers and US targeting.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czjeejw9z4zo

[jusplay4fun]

I think that Zelenskyy thought he could use the Media to change the narrative. He did not seem to understand that he has no leverage ("No Cards" as Trump said more than once during that heated exchange) to ask for favors from Trump and the American people. Most Americans, it seems, are tired of sending BILLIONS of US Dollars to Ukraine to fight a WWI style stalemate.

Zelenskyy's savy use of Media worked in 2022. That story is no longer falling on ears that are as receptive in 2025. I agree with Trump that he is trying end the killing; that is a worthy goal. ("Blessed are the peace makers." Matthew 5:9)

Zelenskyy does not seem to appreciate the Economic Ties, investments, and thus US STAKE in Ukraine if we obtain some of the mineral rights ("rare earths") to what Ukraine does have.

Besides those mistakes by Zelenskyy, Trump wanted a photo op in the Oval Office and it SPIRALED "out of control" off-script from the intended photos before the ACTUAL signing of the document and agreement that Zelenskyy came to the White House to sign. The questions from the reporters there allowed the simmering underlying tensions with Zelenskyy and Ukraine to SPILL out into the open. Zelenskyy pushed for "Security Guarantees" because Russia violated cease-fires before 2025 (he said "25 times" more than once). That move also did not work. Trump said nothing can be guaranteed. They also misunderstood when Zelenskyy talked about "you will FEEL" the impact of ....??....I forgot or he was cut off before finishing his sentence by Trump. And Trump soon after snapped back that you cannot tell the US how we should FEEL.

That entire exchange was DRAMATIC and a rarely seen public squabble that is usually avoided by diplomats setting the stage. Zelenskyy also mistakenly challenged VP JD Vance about "What diplomacy, JD?" That move too back-fired as JD Vance defended Trump and then fired back that Zelenskyy did not say thank ONCE during that meeting. Marco Rubio seemed to shake his head as the whole scene had spiraled out of the normally well-orchestrated event that diplomats love to stage for such high level meetings. All the "rough spots are smoothed out" before the Leaders sit down to meet and sign the document(s).

I was at the grocery store at about 5 pm here yesterday and some woman there said this could be the start of WW3. (She told me to watch it; I did, all 30 minutes on a YouTube playback.) That reference to WW3 sounds like the hyperbole I usually hear from the likes of saxi and pee-rat. (And YES, I know that Trump referenced that hypothetical.)

[Pack Rat]

Trump and Vance behavior was disgusting and rude.



Trump still can't say that Putin is a dictator.


Trump has abandon America's allies and has embraced our enemies.

[Pack Rat]

Trump says, Ukraine shouldn't of started the war with Russia.

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT2HGQ6hA/

[Dukasaur]

The BBC is saying it'll take 20 years for Europe to be ready to fill the gap. It has voluntarily let its armies atrophy to the point that they are merely an auxiliary force to the U.S. military, incapable of independent action.

The latter is true, and it pisses me off every time I think about it.

Doesn't take 20 years to rebuild an army, though. If the will is there, it can be done quickly.

Dollar for dollar, the Saab Gripen is the most cost-effective fighter on earth. (Better than anything Russian, and while it may be inferior to American fighters, it's a hell of a lot cheaper.)

Can say the same for the Leopard among ground tools. Just need to stop pissing around and crank them out by the hundreds. 18 months to tool up and have them rolling off the line, if the will exists.

Rankers can be trained in three months. Officers take longer, but there's a lot of good officers who retired at still-functional ages and with a couple shots of cocaine could be redeployed tomorrow.

If some people in Paris, Rome, Bonn, and London would grow some balls....

[jusplay4fun]

Duk said it well, "IF the WILL IS THERE...."

Back to the DRAMATIC exchange between Trump and Zelenskyy, let's see what the diplomat says about what happened, and provide some background information leading UP to this White House meeting. Below is a video clip by Secretary of State Marco Rubio.

As I said already, this kind of Public BLOW UP nearly never happens these days as diplomats set the stage to AVOID this very type of heated exchange. If the agreement were signed before the questions by reporters, this exchange would not be the LEAD story, the agreement would be ONE of the main stories this weekend.



I think Zelenskyy miscalculated, trying the manipulate the event to get "Security Guarantees" from Trump and the Trump Administration BEFORE signing the document. THIS was NOT what this event was to be on Friday, 2/28/25, more negotiations on this point that Zelenskyy wanted. Listen to Rubio. I am sure he says basically the same thing in other interviews, now on YouTube.

[Pack Rat]

Little Marco was shocked by the exchange, but fell in line like the rest of the spineless Republicans.

It was a planned attack against Zelenskyy. Vance was there to help Trump belittle Zelenskyy.

This is how you conduct diplomacy between leaders.



....meanwhile Trump is unable to call Putin a dictator and aggressor. Trump wants the same powers as Putin in America.

[saxitoxin]

This is how you conduct diplomacy between leaders.

The UK is backpeddling this morning -- the British ambassador to the U.S. just went on TV and demanded Zelensky give his "unequivocal backing to the initiative that President Trump is taking."

https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/18 ... 5909469378

All of your heroes turn to stone and crumble to ashes within minutes of you citing them.

[Dukasaur]

[b]Little Marco was shocked by the exchange, but fell in line like the rest of the spineless Republicans.

The amount of bile Marco must be swallowing has to be enormous. Considering he's been one of the great Russia realists in American politics for decades, a big booster of the Magnitsky Act and other sanctions, selling his soul to the KGB stooge has to rankle incredibly. Does he really think this is a stepping stone to securing the presidency somewhere down the line? That's gotta be the only prize big enough to tell himself he's working towards.

[Shoe555]

I think that Zelenskyy thought he could use the Media to change the narrative. He did not seem to understand that he has no leverage ("No Cards" as Trump said more than once during that heated exchange) to ask for favors from Trump and the American people. Most Americans, it seems, are tired of sending BILLIONS of US Dollars to Ukraine to fight a WWI style stalemate.

Zelenskyy's savy use of Media worked in 2022. That story is no longer falling on ears that are as receptive in 2025. I agree with Trump that he is trying end the killing; that is a worthy goal. ("Blessed are the peace makers." Matthew 5:9)

Zelenskyy does not seem to appreciate the Economic Ties, investments, and thus US STAKE in Ukraine if we obtain some of the mineral rights ("rare earths") to what Ukraine does have.

Besides those mistakes by Zelenskyy, Trump wanted a photo op in the Oval Office and it SPIRALED "out of control" off-script from the intended photos before the ACTUAL signing of the document and agreement that Zelenskyy came to the White House to sign. The questions from the reporters there allowed the simmering underlying tensions with Zelenskyy and Ukraine to SPILL out into the open. Zelenskyy pushed for "Security Guarantees" because Russia violated cease-fires before 2025 (he said "25 times" more than once). That move also did not work. Trump said nothing can be guaranteed. They also misunderstood when Zelenskyy talked about "you will FEEL" the impact of ....??....I forgot or he was cut off before finishing his sentence by Trump. And Trump soon after snapped back that you cannot tell the US how we should FEEL.

That entire exchange was DRAMATIC and a rarely seen public squabble that is usually avoided by diplomats setting the stage. Zelenskyy also mistakenly challenged VP JD Vance about "What diplomacy, JD?" That move too back-fired as JD Vance defended Trump and then fired back that Zelenskyy did not say thank ONCE during that meeting. Marco Rubio seemed to shake his head as the whole scene had spiraled out of the normally well-orchestrated event that diplomats love to stage for such high level meetings. All the "rough spots are smoothed out" before the Leaders sit down to meet and sign the document(s).

I was at the grocery store at about 5 pm here yesterday and some woman there said this could be the start of WW3. (She told me to watch it; I did, all 30 minutes on a YouTube playback.) That reference to WW3 sounds like the hyperbole I usually hear from the likes of saxi and pee-rat. (And YES, I know that Trump referenced that hypothetical.)

On December 5 1994, at a ceremony in Budapest, Ukraine joined Belarus and Kazakhstan in giving up their nuclear arsenals in return for security guarantees from the United States, the UK, France, China and Russia. Educate yourselves on the promises our country (and others) have made and what it means for diplomacy!

[Shoe555]

Trump is Putin‘s bitch and a traitor to this country!

[kennyp72]

Well, now we find out if Europe will rise to the occasion, or not.

What was it Nuland said...

[kennyp72]

The BBC is saying it'll take 20 years for Europe to be ready to fill the gap. It has voluntarily let its armies atrophy to the point that they are merely an auxiliary force to the U.S. military, incapable of independent action.

The question is not just whether Europe has the will: does it have the numbers too?

The short answer is no.

Britain is not alone in cutting its armed forces in response to the end of the Cold War. That trend in Europe is slowly being reversed, with more nations increasing defence spending.

But Europe, on its own, would not be able to provide a force of 100-200,000 international troops, which Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky suggests would be needed to deter Russia from attacking again.

Instead, Western officials have said they're thinking of a force of up to 30,000 troops.

But these same Western officials acknowledge that this would not be enough, hence the calls for a US "backstop" - "to have the confidence that whatever forces are deployed will not be challenged by Russia" and to "give the prime minister confidence that he can deploy British forces safely".

Officials believe that, at the very least, the US could provide oversight to any European forces with a "command and control element" and US fighter jets ready to respond from its airbases in Poland and Romania. Europe cannot match American space-based surveillance or intelligence-gathering capabilities.

It could also agree to continuing to supply Ukraine with weapons.

While Europe has recently overtaken the US in terms of the proportion of Western weapons supplied to Ukraine, one Western source said the US had provided "the cream" - such as long range missiles and air defence systems.

European nations also do not have the necessary enablers to conduct large-scale military operations on their own. The supply of Western weapons to Ukraine has been dependent on US logistics.

Nato's bombing campaign over Libya in 2011 also highlighted deficiencies - with European nations supposedly taking the lead, but still dependent on US support. Allies relied on US refuelling tankers and US targeting.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czjeejw9z4zo

A famed and much decorated US military leader, Major General Smedley D Butler wrote a short book called 'War Is A Racket'.

It is a dry text really, written by a military man, not an author or journalist or writer of any sort. It is also now an old text now, Smedley has been dead for 85 years.

However it is well worth a read I feel.

War Is A Racket

Major General Smedley D Butler.

[kennyp72]

This is how you conduct diplomacy between leaders.

The UK is backpeddling this morning -- the British ambassador to the U.S. just went on TV and demanded Zelensky give his "unequivocal backing to the initiative that President Trump is taking."

https://x.com/RapidResponse47/status/18 ... 5909469378

All of your heroes turn to stone and crumble to ashes within minutes of you citing them.

If Starmer is your hero then you are deep in the shite.

[kennyp72]

I think that Zelenskyy thought he could use the Media to change the narrative. He did not seem to understand that he has no leverage ("No Cards" as Trump said more than once during that heated exchange) to ask for favors from Trump and the American people. Most Americans, it seems, are tired of sending BILLIONS of US Dollars to Ukraine to fight a WWI style stalemate.

Zelenskyy's savy use of Media worked in 2022. That story is no longer falling on ears that are as receptive in 2025. I agree with Trump that he is trying end the killing; that is a worthy goal. ("Blessed are the peace makers." Matthew 5:9)

Zelenskyy does not seem to appreciate the Economic Ties, investments, and thus US STAKE in Ukraine if we obtain some of the mineral rights ("rare earths") to what Ukraine does have.

Besides those mistakes by Zelenskyy, Trump wanted a photo op in the Oval Office and it SPIRALED "out of control" off-script from the intended photos before the ACTUAL signing of the document and agreement that Zelenskyy came to the White House to sign. The questions from the reporters there allowed the simmering underlying tensions with Zelenskyy and Ukraine to SPILL out into the open. Zelenskyy pushed for "Security Guarantees" because Russia violated cease-fires before 2025 (he said "25 times" more than once). That move also did not work. Trump said nothing can be guaranteed. They also misunderstood when Zelenskyy talked about "you will FEEL" the impact of ....??....I forgot or he was cut off before finishing his sentence by Trump. And Trump soon after snapped back that you cannot tell the US how we should FEEL.

That entire exchange was DRAMATIC and a rarely seen public squabble that is usually avoided by diplomats setting the stage. Zelenskyy also mistakenly challenged VP JD Vance about "What diplomacy, JD?" That move too back-fired as JD Vance defended Trump and then fired back that Zelenskyy did not say thank ONCE during that meeting. Marco Rubio seemed to shake his head as the whole scene had spiraled out of the normally well-orchestrated event that diplomats love to stage for such high level meetings. All the "rough spots are smoothed out" before the Leaders sit down to meet and sign the document(s).

I was at the grocery store at about 5 pm here yesterday and some woman there said this could be the start of WW3. (She told me to watch it; I did, all 30 minutes on a YouTube playback.) That reference to WW3 sounds like the hyperbole I usually hear from the likes of saxi and pee-rat. (And YES, I know that Trump referenced that hypothetical.)

On December 5 1994, at a ceremony in Budapest, Ukraine joined Belarus and Kazakhstan in giving up their nuclear arsenals in return for security guarantees from the United States, the UK, France, China and Russia. Educate yourselves on the promises our country (and others) have made and what it means for diplomacy!

Whilst educating yourself maybe also look at the promises that were made to the former USSR when the 'iron curtain' fell in relation to NATO and its boundaries.

Oh and it also maybe worth people educating themselves as to where the rare earth minerals are deposited...hint, it isn't Ukraine.

[saxitoxin]

Whilst educating yourself maybe also look at the promises that were made to the former USSR when the 'iron curtain' fell in relation to NATO and its boundaries.

exactly

[mookiemcgee]

[Dukasaur]

On December 5 1994, at a ceremony in Budapest, Ukraine joined Belarus and Kazakhstan in giving up their nuclear arsenals in return for security guarantees from the United States, the UK, France, China and Russia. Educate yourselves on the promises our country (and others) have made and what it means for diplomacy!

Whilst educating yourself maybe also look at the promises that were made to the former USSR when the 'iron curtain' fell in relation to NATO and its boundaries.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Yes, the West was duplicitous in creating the Russian oligarchy, and by extension, leading to the rise of Putin. That doesn't make it right to let him exterminate the freedom of others.

While you're doing all your studying, read of Mice and Men. The West has an obligation to clean up the mess and put down the rabid dog it helped to spawn.

[saxitoxin]

That doesn't make it right to let him exterminate the freedom of others.

From Ukrainian independence until 2012, Russian and Tatar -- spoken by 40% of the Uke population -- were co-official languages in Ukraine. In 2012 Ukrainian was declared the sole official language ... but Russian and Tatar were still tolerated in local schools and government offices in Russian and Tatar-speaking areas. In 2018 Ukraine declared total intolerance for Russian and Tatar and banned them from use at all levels.

In this and other ways, from the early 2010s on, Ukraine intentionally set about to build an ethno-state, despite the fact that only a bare majority of its population was of the desired ethnicity. It actively started taking the early steps that regimes throughout history have taken when preparing for an ethnic cleansing, despite the fact one of the world's three great powers -- which has committed itself to the protection of Russian and Tatar people -- was its next-door neighbor.

I'm sorry to say it but Ukraine is just not a smart country. It bumbled and fumbled its way into this war. You have to have an IQ of 12 to have done what the Ukes did in the 15 years leading up to it. The United States should defend the world's virgins, not the world's morons.

[jusplay4fun]

That doesn't make it right to let him exterminate the freedom of others.

It actively started taking the early steps that regimes throughout history have taken when preparing for an ethnic cleansing.

To call the actions of the Ukrainians as preparing for ethnic cleansing with these action is simply wrong and clearly obfuscation.

In light of the mass starvation of MILLIONS of Ukrainians in the 1930s, such hyperbole is RIDICULOUS and totally MISLEADING. This was a massive crime against humanity.

man-made famine that convulsed the Soviet republic of Ukraine from 1932 to 1933, peaking in the late spring of 1933. It was part of a broader Soviet famine (1931–34) that also caused mass starvation in the grain-growing regions of Soviet Russia and Kazakhstan. The Ukrainian famine, however, was made deadlier by a series of political decrees and decisions that were aimed mostly or only at Ukraine. (...)

The result of Stalin’s campaign was a catastrophe. In spring 1933 death rates in Ukraine spiked. Between 1931 and 1934 at least 5 million people perished of hunger all across the U.S.S.R. Among them, according to a study conducted by a team of Ukrainian demographers, were at least 3.9 million Ukrainians.

https://www.britannica.com/event/Holodomor

The above is only ONE of many sources. And some in the West and in the USA do not understand the hatred of both sides toward each other in this Russian-Ukrainian War, and here is a most egregious example of the results of such hatreds. NO wonder the Ukrainian people defend their lands so bravely and so resolutely against the Russian invaders.