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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:44 am

bigtoughralf wrote:Israeli troops today raided a Gazan hospital, being used by Hamas to store weapons and house fighters and hostages, following a sustained ground assault on the hospital military compound:u

http://www.rte.ie/news/middle-east/2023 ... za-israel/

Hillary Clinton says something that no one cares about declares that anyone to avoid being labelled a war criminal should cease bombing hospitals:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EndlessWar/s/d1matta7rI

jimboston blames the hospital assault on Hamas:

[Incoming]


fixed
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:46 am

Lonous wrote:Turkish President Erdogan speaking today, 15 Nov 2023.

"Hey Israel, you have a nuclear bomb and you are threatening with this. We know this. Your end is nigh, anyway, whether you have nuclear weapons or not. You're on your way out."
https://twitter.com/upholdreality/statu ... 8301958607


*Cliff notes for the rooks:
Turkey is a NATO member and has the 2nd largest standing military in Nato, behind the U.S.
They also have been operationally active the last 20 years, fulfilling a number of missions with a handful of them still ongoing.
All that is to say, they are not noobs. Their current military is seasoned and experienced.

Do I think Turkey will launch all out war on Israel? No.
However there was a pro-Palestinian protest in Ankara which drew a million+ people.
At the very least Erdogan will throw some form of red meat to his people. The amount will depend on how much they demand.


I honestly don’t understand how or why Turkey is a part of NATO.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:47 am

bigtoughralf wrote:I was legit trying to remember who killed Hitler and wondering why I didn't know.

In my mind it was the Soviet soldier from that photo raising a flag over some German government building.


Hitler killed Hitler.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:53 am

saxitoxin wrote:Progressive pro-peace Violent AntiSemetic protestors have just stormed the Biden regime's lair The White House, demanding all Jews in the Middle East be gassed immediately.



Fixed

Why aren’t these people going to Jail?
They are no different than the Jan. 6th Rioters!

(OK…there are difference… but in both cases you have violent protests and destruction of public property.)
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Re: Israel

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Nov 16, 2023 11:47 am

jimboston wrote:
Lonous wrote:Turkish President Erdogan speaking today, 15 Nov 2023.

"Hey Israel, you have a nuclear bomb and you are threatening with this. We know this. Your end is nigh, anyway, whether you have nuclear weapons or not. You're on your way out."
https://twitter.com/upholdreality/statu ... 8301958607


*Cliff notes for the rooks:
Turkey is a NATO member and has the 2nd largest standing military in Nato, behind the U.S.
They also have been operationally active the last 20 years, fulfilling a number of missions with a handful of them still ongoing.
All that is to say, they are not noobs. Their current military is seasoned and experienced.

Do I think Turkey will launch all out war on Israel? No.
However there was a pro-Palestinian protest in Ankara which drew a million+ people.
At the very least Erdogan will throw some form of red meat to his people. The amount will depend on how much they demand.


I honestly don’t understand how or why Turkey is a part of NATO.


Turkey is on NATO's southeast Flank, AND, Any opponent of communism is our Friend, as per the Cold War. That has been the dominant US Foreign Policy since 1945 (hence Korea and Vietnam). We are now into anti-terrorism, too.

I have a relative who was in the US Air Force in Turkey around 1970. What do you think he was doing there? Listening in on the Soviets. Also, there were Jupiter missiles in Turkey, that was "bargained" away in the Cuban Missile Crises.

U.S. Jupiter missiles were removed from Turkey in April 1963. The Cuban missile crisis stands as a singular event during the Cold War and strengthened Kennedy's image domestically and internationally. It also may have helped mitigate negative world opinion regarding the failed Bay of Pigs invasion.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/cuban-missile-crisis#:~:text=U.S.%20Jupiter%20missiles%20were%20removed,failed%20Bay%20of%20Pigs%20invasion.

I think the overall idea is that it is better to have the Turks with us and NOT against us.
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Re: Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:31 pm

jimboston wrote:Why aren’t these people going to Jail?


Seriously?

Up until a month ago this was the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. If Biden has any chance of winning in 2024 he has to get them back. Jailing them isn't exactly going to help.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 16, 2023 12:39 pm

jimboston wrote:I honestly don’t understand how or why Turkey is a part of NATO.


If they aren't, Greece gets put in its place in about 20 seconds.

If they aren't, then America's pet Israel is now facing down the Muslim world's largest military force and most sophisticated intelligence apparatus.

If they aren't, then the U.S., British, and French navies can't get within 500 miles of Russia's major warm water port. Meanwhile, Russia - in a war - isn't bottled up in the Black Sea and can break out into the Mediterranean and wreak havoc.

Needless to say, I support Turkey out of NATO.
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Israel

Postby bigtoughralf on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:19 pm

jimboston wrote:I honestly don’t understand how or why Turkey is a part of NATO.


i.e. 'I have no way of refuting the message so I'll just criticise the messenger'

NATO is a military alliance created to encircle Russia, not a social media forum for Westerners to circlejerk about making pets gender neutral and breastfeeding in the office. There's nothing incongruous about Turkiye being part of it.
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Re: Israel

Postby Votanic on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:23 pm

jimboston wrote:What would you have them do instead?

Hamas has stated their goal is to wipe the state of Israel out of existence. They have proved they are willing to take actions (i.e. killing 1200+ civilians in an unannounced attack) to make this goal a reality. Do you believe Hamas and Israel can come to a negotiated settlement? Israel has two options…
1) Destroy Hamas
2) Evacuate all Jews from Israel

Yes! Jim, you brought this whole crazy thread around full circle.

Let me re-introduce my own post from way back on page 1:
Votanic wrote:Israel should borrow a page from the Musk playbook and do a rebranding. Something right on the line between multiculturalism and faceless secular materialism. Nothing Abrahamic.
Maybe something like 'Mediterranean Sunland' or 'Desert Palms'...
Admittedly,those names do sound quasi-touristy, but I think the residents would also really benefit from more of that laidback vacay vibe.

No references to scripture or history (regardless of what you/they consider scripture and history to be).

Remember what I said about Pal-rael? A country open to all, without a state religion. That's right, no more Jewish Apartheid State* (gasp!). Just a state for everybody.
...and the Jews wouldn't even have to evacuate, they would just need to to get over themselves.

*A country that doesn't even have a constitution, because quasi-theocratic dictatorships need to be able to overhaul their own judicial branches whenever they see fit.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:45 pm

jusplay4fun wrote:
jimboston wrote:I honestly don’t understand how or why Turkey is a part of NATO.


Turkey is on NATO's southeast Flank, AND, Any opponent of communism is our Friend, as per the Cold War. That has been the dominant US Foreign Policy since 1945 (hence Korea and Vietnam). We are now into anti-terrorism, too.

I have a relative who was in the US Air Force in Turkey around 1970. What do you think he was doing there? Listening in on the Soviets. Also, there were Jupiter missiles in Turkey, that was "bargained" away in the Cuban Missile Crises.

U.S. Jupiter missiles were removed from Turkey in April 1963. The Cuban missile crisis stands as a singular event during the Cold War and strengthened Kennedy's image domestically and internationally. It also may have helped mitigate negative world opinion regarding the failed Bay of Pigs invasion.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1961-1968/cuban-missile-crisis#:~:text=U.S.%20Jupiter%20missiles%20were%20removed,failed%20Bay%20of%20Pigs%20invasion.

I think the overall idea is that it is better to have the Turks with us and NOT against us.


This was a rhetorical question.

A partnership that made sense in the 1950’s - 1970’s doesn’t seem to me as still making sense.

They’re really not “with us” on most issues.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:47 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
jimboston wrote:Why aren’t these people going to Jail?


Seriously?

Up until a month ago this was the progressive wing of the Democratic Party. If Biden has any chance of winning in 2024 he has to get them back. Jailing them isn't exactly going to help.


They aren’t gonna vote for Trump… and they will likely show up for Biden because they see Trump as the Devil Incarnate.

A left wing or odd 3rd Party Candidate could steal some votes and be an issue but that’s still a long shot at the moment.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:49 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
jimboston wrote:I honestly don’t understand how or why Turkey is a part of NATO.


If they aren't, Greece gets put in its place in about 20 seconds.

If they aren't, then America's pet Israel is now facing down the Muslim world's largest military force and most sophisticated intelligence apparatus.

If they aren't, then the U.S., British, and French navies can't get within 500 miles of Russia's major warm water port. Meanwhile, Russia - in a war - isn't bottled up in the Black Sea and can break out into the Mediterranean and wreak havoc.

Needless to say, I support Turkey out of NATO.


I support us threatening to kick them out of NATO and demand they be more compliant.
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Re: Israel

Postby jusplay4fun on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:57 pm

jimboston wrote:
bigtoughralf wrote:I was legit trying to remember who killed Hitler and wondering why I didn't know.

In my mind it was the Soviet soldier from that photo raising a flag over some German government building.


Hitler killed Hitler.


Yes, just like I said, previously.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 2:58 pm

Votanic wrote:Israel should borrow a page from the Musk playbook and do a rebranding. Something right on the line between multiculturalism and faceless secular materialism. Nothing Abrahamic.
Maybe something like 'Mediterranean Sunland' or 'Desert Palms'...
Admittedly,those names do sound quasi-touristy, but I think the residents would also really benefit from more of that laidback vacay vibe.

No references to scripture or history (regardless of what you/they consider scripture and history to be).
Remember what I said about Pal-rael? A country open to all, without a state religion. That's right, no more Jewish Apartheid State* (gasp!). Just a state for everybody.
...and the Jews wouldn't even have to evacuate, they would just need to to get over themselves.


This is a Fantasy.

Hamas doesn’t want this… they want the Jews DEAD.
The Palestinian people don’t want this… they want the Jews GONE.

If I could wave a magic wand and change everyone’s hearts and minds; if I could wave a magic wand and solve all the land/wealth distribution issues to everyone’s satisfaction; if I could waive a magic wand and get EVERYONE (in your pretend “Pal-rael”) to agree to a form of government that protects everyone and their safety and legal rights. I agree this would be ideal.

It can’t happen. Not now… not in the near future. Maybe if they can form two states and live peacefully for a few generations… maybe the whole world can come together like this… but these fantasy lands don’t reflect reality.

The Jews want a Jewish State. The Palestinian’s want an Islamic State.

There’s not way to implement this fantasy.

So provide an actual solution or shut up.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:00 pm

jusplay4fun wrote:
jimboston wrote:
bigtoughralf wrote:I was legit trying to remember who killed Hitler and wondering why I didn't know.

In my mind it was the Soviet soldier from that photo raising a flag over some German government building.


Hitler killed Hitler.


Yes, just like I said, previously.


I missed that. I very rarely read the drivel you type, so occasionally I’ll miss an actual correct fact.
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Re: Israel

Postby Votanic on Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:16 pm

Ha! Caught you, Jim.

You just now posted three times in row, only to hide my excellent response/retort to your pandering question, the one you pretended had only two possible answers.
However, incidentally, my actual answer would peace to the Middle East, if actually implemented.

btw, Ataturk, only the most phenomenal statesman ever.
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Re: Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:43 pm

jimboston wrote:They aren’t gonna vote for Trump… and they will likely show up for Biden because they see Trump as the Devil Incarnate.

A left wing or odd 3rd Party Candidate could steal some votes and be an issue but that’s still a long shot at the moment.


Famous last words of Al Gore (Nader), George Bush (Perot), and Hillary Clinton (Stein) -

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Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 16, 2023 3:45 pm

jimboston wrote:The Palestinian’s want an Islamic State.


Not true!

Fatah wants a secular state. The longtime spokesman of the PLO, Kamal Nasser - who was assassinated by the Mossad - was a Christian.

Hamas may want an Islamic state but Islamic governance generally portends toleration for Christians, Jews, Sabians, and Druze. There are even Jewish members of the Iranian parliament. (If you're Baha'i or Hindu, things might get a little dicey, though. And if your name is Ralf you're probably headed straight to jail.)
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=241668&start=200#p5349880
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Re: Israel

Postby Votanic on Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:27 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
jimboston wrote:They aren’t gonna vote for Trump… and they will likely show up for Biden because they see Trump as the Devil Incarnate.

A left wing or odd 3rd Party Candidate could steal some votes and be an issue but that’s still a long shot at the moment.


Famous last words of Al Gore (Nader), George Bush (Perot), and Hillary Clinton (Stein) -

Image

That's why the Dem's have marginalized and soul-crushed Bernie. Even liberals have no place in the new Democratic party. How tellingly ironic is that?
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:46 pm

Votanic wrote:Ha! Caught you, Jim.

You just now posted three times in row, only to hide my excellent response/retort to your pandering question, the one you pretended had only two possible answers.
However, incidentally, my actual answer would peace to the Middle East, if actually implemented.

btw, Ataturk, only the most phenomenal statesman ever.


… and how would you accomplish that?

Let’s say you are named “Captain of the Planet” and can make all the decisions related your Fantasy World of “Pal-Rael”.

Do you think either side will accept the “peace” you impose?

You refuse to acknowledge the fundamental facts that exist…
1) Hamas wants all Jews in the Middle East dead.
2) Palestinians (in general) want all the Jews in the Middle East gone.
So when you “declare” “actual” peace… who is going to stop Hamas from killing and deporting all the Jews?

Then, even if you stop the immediate fighting… how do you resolve the contradicting land claims that exist on both sides of the issue? Do you think the people you decided against will just accept your decision?

Then… even if you stop the fighting and come up with a land/wealth redistribution plan that EVERYONE agrees with… then you have to establish a gov’t that both sides agree with.
Jews want a Jewish State.
Palestinians want an Arab State.
Are they both going to happily accept some generic non-secular representative gov’t?

Everyone wants an “actual fair peace and no more innocent deaths”. No one is opposed to this idea.
The problem is that one side (Hamas) wants the other side dead; and the other side (Israel) wants a Jewish State.
These are mutually exclusive options.

You give platitudes both refuse to accept reality.
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Re: Israel

Postby jimboston on Thu Nov 16, 2023 5:49 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Palestinian’s want an Islamic State.


Not true!

Fatah wants a secular state. The longtime spokesman of the PLO, Kamal Nasser - who was assassinated by the Mossad - was a Christian.

Hamas may want an Islamic state but Islamic governance generally portends toleration for Christians, Jews, Sabians, and Druze. There are even Jewish members of the Iranian parliament. (If you're Baha'i or Hindu, things might get a little dicey, though. And if your name is Ralf you're probably headed straight to jail.)


and there are Muslim Arabs who are full citizens of Israel.

Everyone forgets this.

… but most Jews in other Arab countries in the area were deported of fled decades ago.
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Re: Israel

Postby Votanic on Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:29 pm

jimboston wrote:
Votanic wrote:Ha! Caught you, Jim.

You just now posted three times in row, only to hide my excellent response/retort to your pandering question, the one you pretended had only two possible answers.
However, incidentally, my actual answer would peace to the Middle East, if actually implemented.

btw, Ataturk, only the most phenomenal statesman ever.


… and how would you accomplish that?

Let’s say you are named “Captain of the Planet” and can make all the decisions related your Fantasy World of “Pal-Rael”.

Do you think either side will accept the “peace” you impose?

Even if I was Captain Planet, I know it wouldn't be easy, especially considering the millennia of 'bad blood' tha has gone down
Who was it who said,"Those who remember history, are doomed to repeat it"?

I guess the biggest thing I would do differently is call people on all their religious/cultural bullshit.

Instead of 'freedom of religion', start making religion a crime: 'God is Fraud'. Matters of faith would be treated only as cheap hustles and confidence schemes.

If anything fictional is passed off to the public as fact, people would be prosecuted for it.

I mean why... even after all the endless exposure to movies, television, computer games, RPGs, fantasy and science fiction novels, comic books, etc, etc.; why do religious people act like making up a fictional, mythological being with super powers is an exceptional thing to do. Anyone, can imagine a magical being, and then have a set of spells, rules, laws, edicts, wahtever, come out of his/her/its mouth.

I'm reminded of that quote by Michel de Montaigne
“Oh senseless man, who cannot possibly make a worm or a flea and yet will create Gods by the dozen!”

The only difference is now, thanks to genetic engineering, we just about can make worms and fleas, but still, you get what he's saying.
I also don't think that "gods by the dozen" part lets monotheism off the hook, but I could see how somebody might play that angle...

Maybe, as an exercise, every morning as soon as folks wake up, they could generate a new deity, and then at the end of the day, toss it out (like disposable contact lenses or paper plates).
On the next day, they would just make another one, if they still had a need or desire.

Okay, okay, I do partly get their motivation. A lot of religious people like the temporal power social control con game of having an imaginary superfriend who likes you best ...some of them even start really believing in it! A good number probably even particularly like the way it gives them an always-ready excuse to get into a self-rightous huff and start demanding and fighting about everything. Wars, crusades, inquisitions, fatwas, beatings, bombings, exorcisms, witch hunts, book burning (and book writing...). The list goes on and on.
Last edited by Votanic on Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Israel

Postby saxitoxin on Thu Nov 16, 2023 7:32 pm

jimboston wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:
jimboston wrote:The Palestinian’s want an Islamic State.


Not true!

Fatah wants a secular state. The longtime spokesman of the PLO, Kamal Nasser - who was assassinated by the Mossad - was a Christian.

Hamas may want an Islamic state but Islamic governance generally portends toleration for Christians, Jews, Sabians, and Druze. There are even Jewish members of the Iranian parliament. (If you're Baha'i or Hindu, things might get a little dicey, though. And if your name is Ralf you're probably headed straight to jail.)


and there are Muslim Arabs who are full citizens of Israel.

Everyone forgets this.

… but most Jews in other Arab countries in the area were deported of fled decades ago.


"Fled."

If I was told I could get a free house -- some Arabs used to live there but they were "encouraged" to leave [at gunpoint] and the house has been repainted since then -- I just needed to move a few hundred miles to the west, I absolutely would.

The first large-scale exodus of Jews from the Arab world didn't happen until 1949. For 6,000 years there was no large-scale exodus. Why suddenly 1949? Could it be that, in 1948, Israel ethnically cleansed 500,000 Arabs? Perhaps?
Pack Rat wrote:if it quacks like a duck and walk like a duck, it's still fascism

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Re: Israel

Postby HitRed on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:02 pm

saxitoxin wrote:
Instead of 'freedom of religion', start making religion a crime: 'God is Fraud'. Matters of faith would be treated only as cheap hustles and confidence schemes.

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Re: Israel

Postby Votanic on Thu Nov 16, 2023 8:15 pm

HitRed wrote:
saxitoxin wrote:Instead of 'freedom of religion', start making religion a crime: 'God is Fraud'. Matters of faith would be treated only as cheap hustles and confidence schemes.
saxitoxin?! How could you...

Btw, Hitred, being a fellow zealot, I must inform you that I just received a divine vision from the tripartite deity of Athena, Nyarlahotep, and the Easter Bunny. This occurred while balancing on one foot on a Ouija board and swinging a set of glow-in-the-dark rosary beads over my head (Works every time).
You are in violation of holy scriptures, and other sacred esoteric dogma, and shall burn forever in the flame pits of Tartarus! I'm sorry to have to inform you of this but God's wrath is real. Just look at Gaza, they weren't praying right either.
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