Game of Thrones (series spoiling only!)

[betiko]

i like the storyline on the wall, but I think they should've kept it to powerfull wildlings and giants. zombies is just such a cliché....
I think the whole GOT should have just a very small part of supernatural. not plain realistic, let's say we can tolerate the dragons, but not too "lord of the rings" like.

well maergery is openly kind hearted, but is such a strategist that her kind hearted gestures all seem to have an agenda (visiting the orphans, donating the leftovers from the wedding, and everything). Not that it's bad; I m not going to blame someone making good actions to get something in return. Just that a genuinely kind hearted person does these things without thinking of the consequences of their good actions. Given how much she was accepting from joffrey, from renly and how she is now seducing a little boy; she is obviously not driven by a genuine kind heart. She is a complete go-getter and would do anything to become queen. anything.

rickion... hummmm... sounds like ramsay's new little toy or maybe some story between him and theon with theon trying to help him after all the damage he's done...

And so far... I have nothing against littlefinger. I like his moves, he thinks 2 moves ahead. He isn't being cruel for the sake of being cruel; he just has a goal and is a go-getter. He would actually make a great couple with maergery.

[Army of GOD]

The Wall subplot is interesting and lame at the same time. Honestly if Jon Snow wasn't a part of it (my favorite character pretty much) then it would be pretty dumb. Though Jon is getting put in a really shitty spot right now (with having to deal with the mutineers and Bolton's pet rat infiltrating them with the temporary Lord Commander being a big dick bag) and I'm getting a bad feeling about his chances of being alive by the end of the season.

I kind of want to believe that Margaery and her grandmother are actually good people but I could definitely see if Margaery is as much of a conniving bitch as Cersei or something. From what I'm gathering from her motives, it seems like Margaery just wants to be a well-liked Queen (it's kind of a selfish goal, but to be well-liked you have to do public services, which is good for everyone in the kingdom) with all her wanting to do charity and whatnot.

And Littlefinger has been such a hard character to gauge motives. He plays such a sketchy game backstabbing whoever to save his own skin that I think he's gonna get fucked soon.

[patches70]

It might be a good idea for some of you to go to youtube and check out the "Lore of Westeros" series. It goes into the back story of the history of the world in GOT and doesn't give away spoilers of current events.

You'll better understand the deal with the White Walkers, how the houses fit together, the history of the dragons, the Wierwood and the Old and New religions.


As for Littlefinger, people should try to remember his motivation. He wants everything, but why does he want everything? He's nutty as a fruitcake in some ways, due to an unfortunate episode in his formative years that has left one hell of a scar on his psyche. When you remember that you can start to really see just how horrible a person Littlefinger really is. He's vindictive, greedy, arrogant, intelligent and filled with a seriously inflated sense of his own importance.
That said, he's an important and interesting character. But make no mistake, Littlefinger is the proverbial "bad guy". Probably the worse of all the bad guys in the series because he is so competent in his schemes.

Soon, so very soon, those of you who haven't read the books will get a first hand taste of just how bad Littlefinger is. It'll be fun to see all of your reactions.

[Gillipig]

It might be a good idea for some of you to go to youtube and check out the "Lore of Westeros" series. It goes into the back story of the history of the world in GOT and doesn't give away spoilers of current events.

You'll better understand the deal with the White Walkers, how the houses fit together, the history of the dragons, the Wierwood and the Old and New religions.


As for Littlefinger, people should try to remember his motivation. He wants everything, but why does he want everything? He's nutty as a fruitcake in some ways, due to an unfortunate episode in his formative years that has left one hell of a scar on his psyche. When you remember that you can start to really see just how horrible a person Littlefinger really is. He's vindictive, greedy, arrogant, intelligent and filled with a seriously inflated sense of his own importance.
That said, he's an important and interesting character. But make no mistake, Littlefinger is the proverbial "bad guy". Probably the worse of all the bad guys in the series because he is so competent in his schemes.

Soon, so very soon, those of you who haven't read the books will get a first hand taste of just how bad Littlefinger is. It'll be fun to see all of your reactions.

Littlefinger is one of the most intelligent characters in the series/books if not the most intelligent. Varys who is very clever as well called Littlefinger the most dangerous person in the seven kingdoms, and he did so when Littlefinger had no real power just based on his intelligence and ferociousness. Tywin and Tyrion are intelligent as well, Tyrion's weakness is his morality though and Tywin has a tendency to underestimate certain people, Littlefinger's weakness is arguably his greed and ego but so far it hasn't come back to bite him, although I strongly suspect it will sometime in the future.

[patches70]

Littlefinger's weakness is arguably his greed and ego but so far it hasn't come back to bite him, although I strongly suspect it will sometime in the future.

Indeed, but with Martin you just never know. We'll all just have to wait and see. I hope he finishes his books before he keels over and dies from a heart attack. Fingers crossed!

[betiko]

Oh well, littlefinger would need to do something pretty damn harsh for me to see him as the grand master evil. But i guess he is is going to... He ll have likely both stark girls to play with soon.
Or maybe he could weight in tyrion s trial with fake proofs...

[patches70]

Oh well, littlefinger would need to do something pretty damn harsh for me to see him as the grand master evil.

Good! Just remember this, betiko. You'll see before this season is over I'd imagine, and we'll revisit your statement here.


Oh, and for those who haven't read the books, the history of Westeros, the complete HD series made by HBO and voiced by the characters from the TV series.
You can skip to 5:09 when the actual series starts. The first 5 minutes are interviews with Martin and producers of the TV series. The lore starts 12,000 years before the current events and explains everything that has happened up to the beginning of the actual GoT series throughout Westeros and Valeria. And of course, what little is known of the things that lived in Westeros before the First men came, the beings known as "The Children".

It's fairly important, or at least enlightening, to know about this history to understand what's going on in the current events of Westeros.
Enjoy!

[strike wolf]

Are you kidding? The Bran storyline in the fifth book is great, as well as the just deserts of Theon. IMO.

-TG

Bran story line in the 5 book is alright. It's not bad. In fact, yeah it is good. His story overall though to me is kind of whatever. Outside of when Theon had Winterfell hostage and a couple chapters in 5, it had little dramatic moments and lacks the political intrigue that makes the Kings Landing stories worth reading. I thought I would be very happy to see Theon suffer but it went so far that I just feel sorry for him. His problem is simply that he is one of the few truly non-intelligent people in GoT/ASoIAF. It didn't help that between his last story line when he lost Winterfell until his next storyline, a lot had happened to help me lose my connection with the story flow.

i like the storyline on the wall, but I think they should've kept it to powerfull wildlings and giants. zombies is just such a cliché....
I think the whole GOT should have just a very small part of supernatural. not plain realistic, let's say we can tolerate the dragons, but not too "lord of the rings" like.

To be fair to Martin, he started writing these books before the zombie craze happened in the mid-2000s. Also the thing about the zombies is just the tip of the ice berg. Those difficult to kill zombies are just the foot soldiers. The elite soldiers consist of practically unkillable ice necromancers who wield very strong swords and don't seem to tire any more than their zombie horde does.

well maergery is openly kind hearted, but is such a strategist that her kind hearted gestures all seem to have an agenda (visiting the orphans, donating the leftovers from the wedding, and everything). Not that it's bad; I m not going to blame someone making good actions to get something in return. Just that a genuinely kind hearted person does these things without thinking of the consequences of their good actions. Given how much she was accepting from joffrey, from renly and how she is now seducing a little boy; she is obviously not driven by a genuine kind heart. She is a complete go-getter and would do anything to become queen. anything.

I am not saying that she doesn't have other motives but every time she's had to choose a decision she has chosen one that leans away from pain and suffering and more towards helping. It is also a book perspective thing too. In the books, it was very much her parents and grandma who were pressuring the Lannisters to accept marrying her to Tommen and consummating it when he was older. Not to say that she didn't want to be queen but every indication in the books points to her being fairly genuine.

rickion... hummmm... sounds like ramsay's new little toy or maybe some story between him and theon with theon trying to help him after all the damage he's done...

And so far... I have nothing against littlefinger. I like his moves, he thinks 2 moves ahead. He isn't being cruel for the sake of being cruel; he just has a goal and is a go-getter. He would actually make a great couple with maergery.

Being cruel for the sake of cruel isn't Littlefinger's style. It serves no tactical advantage so you don't do it. Murdering/betraying anyone he can get away with killing if they pose any kind of threat to him or even just serves a purpose (like Ned Stark), is his style. Let's look over some of his actions that we know about from the show:

1. Betrayed Ned Stark.
2. Intentionally ran King Robert's debts up so that Kingslanding would get in trouble with the banks lending them money (this isn't specifically said in the books or the show but Littlefinger hints enough at it that there's no reason to deny it).
3. Returned Ned Stark's body to Caitlyn (This could be arguably the one good action he has done but even it has it's motivations involving his obsession with Caitlyn Stark and some other background to it).
4. Killed Joffrey
5. Framed Tyrion
6. Killed the jester knight.

That's just what we know about from the show so far and even what we know in the books is probably not everything he arranged. The reason that Littlefinger is dangerous is because he is a high functioning, self-promoting (at the cost of others) sociopath with no remorse. He doesn't care really about anyone but himself and his strange fixation on Caitlyn/Sansa. And as others have said, one of the reasons we do tend to put him up there as a possible grand evil is that he has proven to be the most competent of them so far. Joffrey was just a sadistic idiot. If he hadn't been placed with the power of a king, he wouldn't have gone anywhere. Ramsay is reasonably intelligent but he is far from what we have seen of other characters.

The Wall subplot is interesting and lame at the same time. Honestly if Jon Snow wasn't a part of it (my favorite character pretty much) then it would be pretty dumb. Though Jon is getting put in a really shitty spot right now (with having to deal with the mutineers and Bolton's pet rat infiltrating them with the temporary Lord Commander being a big dick bag) and I'm getting a bad feeling about his chances of being alive by the end of the season.

Favorite character is difficult to say. Tyrion amuses me the most but Jon has a lot more good character traits. It would probably be between them and I would say that Tyrion probably wins. Jaime is a character who I've grown to like more as the story went on.

It might be a good idea for some of you to go to youtube and check out the "Lore of Westeros" series. It goes into the back story of the history of the world in GOT and doesn't give away spoilers of current events.

You'll better understand the deal with the White Walkers, how the houses fit together, the history of the dragons, the Wierwood and the Old and New religions.


As for Littlefinger, people should try to remember his motivation. He wants everything, but why does he want everything? He's nutty as a fruitcake in some ways, due to an unfortunate episode in his formative years that has left one hell of a scar on his psyche. When you remember that you can start to really see just how horrible a person Littlefinger really is. He's vindictive, greedy, arrogant, intelligent and filled with a seriously inflated sense of his own importance.
That said, he's an important and interesting character. But make no mistake, Littlefinger is the proverbial "bad guy". Probably the worse of all the bad guys in the series because he is so competent in his schemes.

Soon, so very soon, those of you who haven't read the books will get a first hand taste of just how bad Littlefinger is. It'll be fun to see all of your reactions.

Littlefinger is one of the most intelligent characters in the series/books if not the most intelligent. Varys who is very clever as well called Littlefinger the most dangerous person in the seven kingdoms, and he did so when Littlefinger had no real power just based on his intelligence and ferociousness. Tywin and Tyrion are intelligent as well, Tyrion's weakness is his morality though and Tywin has a tendency to underestimate certain people, Littlefinger's weakness is arguably his greed and ego but so far it hasn't come back to bite him, although I strongly suspect it will sometime in the future.

Littlefinger's weakness is his tenuous grasp on sanity. I am not sure we have seen a real weakness from Varys other than the "No one trusts the spy leader" issue. I would have to look back on that one. Another two to add are Roose Bolton and Doran Martell both very intelligent in their own rights. Though Doran's issue is his lack of physical ability due to the gout (as mentioned previously this season) and Roose has the issue of controlling the North after he helped slew the highly beloved Stark King and Queen.

In no particular order, Tywin, Tyrion, Varys, Littlefinger, Doran and Roose are probably the six smartest characters in the 7 kingdoms. I would probably put Tyrion, Littlefinger and Varys above the other three but we really need to see more from Doran to know just how intelligent he is.

[patches70]

A little history for those who haven't read the books on why Cersi is such a cunt, especially toward Tyrion.

When Cersi was a little girl, a mere 11 years old, she and two of her friends went to visit a renowned psychic of the name "Maggy the Frog".
Cersi tells a little bit about this meeting in the show (I don't remember what episode), but here is the full story.

Cersi, Melara Hetherspoon and Jeyne Farman visit this psychic to get their fortunes. when Maggy the Frog opens her eyes and they are yellow like a cat, Jeyne flees, so little Jeyne never got her fortune read. Lucky girl.

Melara asked one question, "Will I marry Jamie" (Cersi's brother) to which Maggy the Frog replied "Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

Melara died that very night. She fell down a well and drowned. Perhaps someone who loved Jamie and was jealous of Melara's infatuations killed her? Perhaps? Yeah, Cersi killed Melara and the psychic was right.

Now, on to Cersi's prophecies.

Cersi was allowed to ask three questions.
Her first question was "Will I marry The Prince?" (Prince Rhaegar).
The reply- "Never, you will wed The King".

Now at the time Cersi probably thought that Maggy meant King Aerys (this is before he was known as "The Mad King", he was still fairly sane at the time). In truth we know that Cersi did indeed marry The King, Robert Baratheon. Robert was crowned king and was then wed to Cersi.
So the Psychic was right.

The second question was "I will be queen, though?"
The reply- "Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
Now this one hasn't come completely true yet, but we can start to see why Cersi hates Margaery so much. But given the strange nature of the psychic's predictions which come true but often not in the ways the subject expects, is Margaery the one who will eventually take everything Cersi holds dear? More on that later...

The last question was "Will the king and I have children?"
The reply= "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

So the psychic gets it right, Robert had 16 bastard children, Cersi have 3 bastard children. She even predicted that Cersi's children would have blonde hair.
But it is the second half of the prediction that spooks Cersi so much. The word "valonqar" in High Valyrian for "little brother". Tyrion is Cersi's younger brother. Cersi believes that Tyrion is destined to kill her by strangling her.


So we can see how much Maggy the Frog shaped Cersi and have a better understanding of why Cersi is so nuts. She fears for her life and fortune. And with good cause, Maggy the Frog is never wrong.


A few questions,

in such predictions they appear straightforward upon first glance but end up being quite another when they actually come true. It's like going to a psychic and being told that you will one day be murdered by a cat. So for the rest of your life you completely avoid cats until one day you are murdered in an alley by a guy named William Catt.

That's the kind of predictions Cersi got.
So it's safe to assume that her initial thoughts are likely incorrect.


That is that it won't be Margaery who dethrones Cersi and it won't be Tyrion who kills her.

So, who is the "other" who will come and be Queen and take all that Cersi holds dear?

And who is the little brother comes to choke the life out of Cersi and is destined to be her murderer?

Let's hear some guesses! I have a few pretty good ideas, but I'll leave those unsaid for the time being.

[betiko]

well for the queen it's a bit hard to guess at this point, sansa sounds too easy and i still don't know what littlefinger is about to do.
and regarding the strangulation, well it can only be jaimie, he was probably born a few minutes after her. the big question is how is he going to strangle her with 1 hand??? lol

[patches70]

well for the queen it's a bit hard to guess at this point, sansa sounds too easy and i still don't know what littlefinger is about to do.
and regarding the strangulation, well it can only be jaimie, he was probably born a few minutes after her. the big question is how is he going to strangle her with 1 hand??? lol

Very nice betiko! Yes, Jamie is the younger twin, Cersi was born before him so technically Jamie is her younger brother as well.

But remember, Maggy the Frog didn't say it would be Cersi's vanlonqar, just vanlonqar. So pretty much anyone who has an older sibling would literally be a vanlonqar.

So I don't think it will be either Tyrion or Jamie who kills Cersi by strangulation. But then again, the vanlonqar though means "little brother" some who is nick named "Little Brother" would equally full fill the prophecy.

But good and valid guesses sir! You may be right. And a good point about Jamie and his lack of a right hand but he does have a nice gold plated one and the psychic didn't specify that the hands would both be of flesh.... It would be poetic justice in a way if Jamie were the one to kill Cersi, though.

Sansa is a good thought as well about who will dethrone Queen Cersi. And yet another reason why Cersi was so cruel to Sansa.

But a point is that Cersi isn't so evil as we might think. She is doing everything she does to protect herself because she is watching as Maggy's predictions come true and she's scared as hell. She is doing everything she can to keep the predictions from coming true and she's become quite unhinged. It's kind of sad in a way, and a cautionary tale of why it might not be a good idea knowing in advance one's fate. Maggy's predictions keep influencing Cersi's thought processes even unto the present.

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[strike wolf]

A little history for those who haven't read the books on why Cersi is such a cunt, especially toward Tyrion.

When Cersi was a little girl, a mere 11 years old, she and two of her friends went to visit a renowned psychic of the name "Maggy the Frog".
Cersi tells a little bit about this meeting in the show (I don't remember what episode), but here is the full story.

Cersi, Melara Hetherspoon and Jeyne Farman visit this psychic to get their fortunes. when Maggy the Frog opens her eyes and they are yellow like a cat, Jeyne flees, so little Jeyne never got her fortune read. Lucky girl.

Melara asked one question, "Will I marry Jamie" (Cersi's brother) to which Maggy the Frog replied "Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

Melara died that very night. She fell down a well and drowned. Perhaps someone who loved Jamie and was jealous of Melara's infatuations killed her? Perhaps? Yeah, Cersi killed Melara and the psychic was right.

Now, on to Cersi's prophecies.

Cersi was allowed to ask three questions.
Her first question was "Will I marry The Prince?" (Prince Rhaegar).
The reply- "Never, you will wed The King".

Now at the time Cersi probably thought that Maggy meant King Aerys (this is before he was known as "The Mad King", he was still fairly sane at the time). In truth we know that Cersi did indeed marry The King, Robert Baratheon. Robert was crowned king and was then wed to Cersi.
So the Psychic was right.

The second question was "I will be queen, though?"
The reply- "Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
Now this one hasn't come completely true yet, but we can start to see why Cersi hates Margaery so much. But given the strange nature of the psychic's predictions which come true but often not in the ways the subject expects, is Margaery the one who will eventually take everything Cersi holds dear? More on that later...

The last question was "Will the king and I have children?"
The reply= "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

So the psychic gets it right, Robert had 16 bastard children, Cersi have 3 bastard children. She even predicted that Cersi's children would have blonde hair.
But it is the second half of the prediction that spooks Cersi so much. The word "valonqar" in High Valyrian for "little brother". Tyrion is Cersi's younger brother. Cersi believes that Tyrion is destined to kill her by strangling her.


So we can see how much Maggy the Frog shaped Cersi and have a better understanding of why Cersi is so nuts. She fears for her life and fortune. And with good cause, Maggy the Frog is never wrong.


A few questions,

in such predictions they appear straightforward upon first glance but end up being quite another when they actually come true. It's like going to a psychic and being told that you will one day be murdered by a cat. So for the rest of your life you completely avoid cats until one day you are murdered in an alley by a guy named William Catt.

That's the kind of predictions Cersi got.
So it's safe to assume that her initial thoughts are likely incorrect.


That is that it won't be Margaery who dethrones Cersi and it won't be Tyrion who kills her.

So, who is the "other" who will come and be Queen and take all that Cersi holds dear?

And who is the little brother comes to choke the life out of Cersi and is destined to be her murderer?

Let's hear some guesses! I have a few pretty good ideas, but I'll leave those unsaid for the time being.

I had been holding off on this theory because it seemed like it might be a spoiler but actually reading it, it isn't that big of a deal. Was it Maggy the Frog? Or Maegi the frog? The other part of Cersei is that she was technically the first born having been twins with Jaime, she came out before he did (puts a bit of a question into who actually is the Valonqar, doesn't it?). Because she was the first born and she was raised by Tywin Lannister who was respect and status above all else and her mother who was a reasonably strong woman in her own right, Cersei developed a jealousy of the power that men can possess and feels like she is just as deserving as they are even if she is a woman (kind of a feminism gone wrong story I guess) and "Tywin's true heir", the one who is most capable and like him (her words not mine).

Fast posted

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[patches70]

I had been holding off on this theory because it seemed like it might be a spoiler but actually reading it, it isn't that big of a deal. Was it Maggy the Frog? Or Maegi the frog?

Oh yeah, the psychic's real name might have been Maegi, but I didn't bother explaining that, because pretty much everyone just calls here Maggy.

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[TA1LGUNN3R]

well for the queen it's a bit hard to guess at this point, sansa sounds too easy and i still don't know what littlefinger is about to do.
and regarding the strangulation, well it can only be jaimie, he was probably born a few minutes after her. the big question is how is he going to strangle her with 1 hand??? lol

Very nice betiko! Yes, Jamie is the younger twin, Cersi was born before him so technically Jamie is her younger brother as well.

But remember, Maggy the Frog didn't say it would be Cersi's vanlonqar, just vanlonqar. So pretty much anyone who has an older sibling would literally be a vanlonqar.

So I don't think it will be either Tyrion or Jamie who kills Cersi by strangulation. But then again, the vanlonqar though means "little brother" some who is nick named "Little Brother" would equally full fill the prophecy.

But good and valid guesses sir! You may be right. And a good point about Jamie and his lack of a right hand but he does have a nice gold plated one and the psychic didn't specify that the hands would both be of flesh.... It would be poetic justice in a way if Jamie were the one to kill Cersi, though.

Sansa is a good thought as well about who will dethrone Queen Cersi. And yet another reason why Cersi was so cruel to Sansa.

But a point is that Cersi isn't so evil as we might think. She is doing everything she does to protect herself because she is watching as Maggy's predictions come true and she's scared as hell. She is doing everything she can to keep the predictions from coming true and she's become quite unhinged. It's kind of sad in a way, and a cautionary tale of why it might not be a good idea knowing in advance one's fate. Maggy's predictions keep influencing Cersi's thought processes even unto the present.

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Thanks for pointing this out. This is one of the reasons why I prefer the Lannisters over the Starks. Their development is, imo, much better than the boring Starks.

-TG

[patches70]

Here is some more history and lore from GoT that may be relevant to the last episode. The story of the Night's Kings.

During the Age of Heroes (the period right after the the signing of the pact ending the war between The First Men and The Children of the Forest) and right after The Wall was completed, there was a Night's Watch Lord Commander. He was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch.

No one remembers what this man's name was, or where he came from before he became part of the Night's Watch but it is believed by some that his name was Brandon and that he was a Stark.

Anyway as the story goes, this Legendary Lord Commander fell in love with a woman whose pure white skin was "cold as ice" and eyes "like blue stars". He chased her beyond The Wall and loved her and gave his seed to her, and with that his soul.

He brought the woman back to the Night Fort and declared himself King and her his Queen and turned the Night's Watch into his own personal army. They ruled their little kingdom for 13 years. During that rule there were terrible atrocities committed of which stories are still told of the deeds to frighten little children, kind of like scary fairy tales.

This Lord Commander and his Queen were finally defeated when the King of the North (this was long before the seven kingdoms were united under King's Landing) teamed up with The King Beyond the Wall, Joramun. The Night's Watch was freed from the tyranny of the fallen Lord Commander and his inhuman wife.

It is because of this that castles of the Night's Watch are forbidden to build walls, that the keeps must always be accessible from the South.
As the story goes this Fallen Lord Commander and his Queen gave human sacrifices to The White Walkers. Much in the same way that Caster gave his male children to the White Walkers as sacrifice.

Spoiler, for book readers, not TV show watchers. If you've read the books you might not want to read this spoiler.

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[Gillipig]

A little history for those who haven't read the books on why Cersi is such a cunt, especially toward Tyrion.

When Cersi was a little girl, a mere 11 years old, she and two of her friends went to visit a renowned psychic of the name "Maggy the Frog".
Cersi tells a little bit about this meeting in the show (I don't remember what episode), but here is the full story.

Cersi, Melara Hetherspoon and Jeyne Farman visit this psychic to get their fortunes. when Maggy the Frog opens her eyes and they are yellow like a cat, Jeyne flees, so little Jeyne never got her fortune read. Lucky girl.

Melara asked one question, "Will I marry Jamie" (Cersi's brother) to which Maggy the Frog replied "Not Jaime, nor any other man, Worms will have your maidenhead. Your death is here tonight, little one. Can you smell her breath? She is very close."

Melara died that very night. She fell down a well and drowned. Perhaps someone who loved Jamie and was jealous of Melara's infatuations killed her? Perhaps? Yeah, Cersi killed Melara and the psychic was right.

Now, on to Cersi's prophecies.

Cersi was allowed to ask three questions.
Her first question was "Will I marry The Prince?" (Prince Rhaegar).
The reply- "Never, you will wed The King".

Now at the time Cersi probably thought that Maggy meant King Aerys (this is before he was known as "The Mad King", he was still fairly sane at the time). In truth we know that Cersi did indeed marry The King, Robert Baratheon. Robert was crowned king and was then wed to Cersi.
So the Psychic was right.

The second question was "I will be queen, though?"
The reply- "Aye. Queen you shall be... until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."
Now this one hasn't come completely true yet, but we can start to see why Cersi hates Margaery so much. But given the strange nature of the psychic's predictions which come true but often not in the ways the subject expects, is Margaery the one who will eventually take everything Cersi holds dear? More on that later...

The last question was "Will the king and I have children?"
The reply= "Oh, aye. Six-and-ten for him, and three for you. Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds. And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

So the psychic gets it right, Robert had 16 bastard children, Cersi have 3 bastard children. She even predicted that Cersi's children would have blonde hair.
But it is the second half of the prediction that spooks Cersi so much. The word "valonqar" in High Valyrian for "little brother". Tyrion is Cersi's younger brother. Cersi believes that Tyrion is destined to kill her by strangling her.


So we can see how much Maggy the Frog shaped Cersi and have a better understanding of why Cersi is so nuts. She fears for her life and fortune. And with good cause, Maggy the Frog is never wrong.


A few questions,

in such predictions they appear straightforward upon first glance but end up being quite another when they actually come true. It's like going to a psychic and being told that you will one day be murdered by a cat. So for the rest of your life you completely avoid cats until one day you are murdered in an alley by a guy named William Catt.

That's the kind of predictions Cersi got.
So it's safe to assume that her initial thoughts are likely incorrect.


That is that it won't be Margaery who dethrones Cersi and it won't be Tyrion who kills her.

So, who is the "other" who will come and be Queen and take all that Cersi holds dear?

And who is the little brother comes to choke the life out of Cersi and is destined to be her murderer?

Let's hear some guesses! I have a few pretty good ideas, but I'll leave those unsaid for the time being.

Yes I remember this story, was it in the third book? I think it was in the third. The younger and more beautiful who will replace her is of course likely to be Daenerys, but I don't like that character so I really hope it isn't here and that she ends up dead, preferably betrayed, before all is said and done. She's just so full of naivity, it doesn't make sense that she has made it this far but the story needs her to survive so she does.
The little brother may well be Jamie, he is the younger of the two I think, but naturally not the one she thinks of as the "younger brother". It could aslo be her son, he is a younger brother, not her younger brother but a younger brother, not likely though, I think Jamie kills her, as is evident the two are drifting apart and Jamieis starting to become more and more like his younger brother, associating with the enemies and not seeing things as black and white.

[strike wolf]

I don't know. It could be Margaery.

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Honestly, if Daenerys becomes queen it will seem like a betrayal of how Martin has told the story so far. I mean he has flipped the idea of main characters and plot armor on its head with everyone but Daenerys and Jon so far. The king was killed by a boar, Ned Stark was beheaded, Khal Drogo was cursed and then killed out of mercy, Robb and Caitlyn were butchered at the Red Wedding, and then when it seemed like only the major "good guys" could be killed, Joffrey was poisoned and Tyrion took the blame. So yeah, I will be a bit disappointed if she succeeds.

[patches70]

I don't know why everyone hates on Daenerys so much. Sure, she was naive in the beginning, but she sure as hell isn't naive now. You can see the transformation of a shy, know nothing girl into a wise and righteous ruler. She's progressing nicely, taking a few lumps along the way, as should be expected.

Not only is she the rightful ruler of Westeros, she's actually a pretty decent ruler. She's brutal to her enemies but just with her followers. She's not a nutty scumbag like her brother, she's not filled with a sense of entitlement, she earns her way and earns the respect of the people that follow. She's no tyrant and she deals harshly with the tyrants she battles.

Yeah, she was annoying at first, but she was a young girl brow beat by her sadistic and nigh insane brother. She also isn't stupid when it comes to taking over cities either. Her speech at the end of the previous episode was iron and showed her wisdom. She didn't risk her army to take the city, she merely convinced the slaves inside the city to rise up, with a little assistance from her. It was the smart way to take the city. And what she did to the former masters afterward was absolutely just, considering those were the same people who nailed over a hundred children to crosses.

Naw, I'm rooting for Daenerys, she's the most deserving of everyone to rule and would be the most just, fair and wise of all to rule over Westeros.
She's got more hard lessons to learn along the way, but it'll be a fun ride for the rest of us to watch.

And not to mention, she birthed the dragons, which is no small feat and has implications for the future that can't be avoided. Who rules the dragons rules the world. It's no mistake that after the Targaryens lost their dragons that soon after they lost power. Because they had lost the right to rule. The dragons are back, because they've found a worthy heir to power. IMO.

[betiko]

I m rooting for littlefinger with maergery. Jaimie could be nice too. I need to see the bad stuff about littlefinger to start disliking him haha. Right now i still see him as awesome.

Really wonder how long tomen will last... Sounds like he won t finish the season.

[strike wolf]

Are you serious? There is nothing just about nailing people onto crosses and having them slowly die like that regardless of what they did. That was to show that Daenerys has a vengeful side a mile wide and anyone who believes that it won't come out when she does get back to Westeros is deceiving themselves. In my opinion, she's not much better than the people she nailed up. She also bought herself a lot of issues with that stunt. There are still plenty within the city who do not want her there. If she treated them with the right amount of mercy to earn some level of trust without appearing weak, she may have placated most of them. By pulling that stunt though, she didn't win many friends. Did she strike fear into some of them? Sure for now but what happens when something comes along to make that fear dissipate? Frankly, that action was sickening.

Her sanity itself is debatable. She certainly isn't as bad as Aerys the Mad, Baelor the Blessed or Viserys but there are hints at it.

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I also don't really want a situation that re-legitimizes the Targaryen dynasty in general. Even if she is a just ruler, the Targaryens have a long history of mentally unstable rulers. I would be happier with anyone but Littlefinger than another Targaryen on the throne. So it's not really just about her. It's the Targaryens period.

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That last paragraph is another reason I don't want her to rule. That's the too obvious solution. "She is the rightful ruler. She is the worthy ruler and the dragons prove it." All that is too straight forward of a situation to come from George R. R. Martin after all of the stunts he has pulled throughout the series, IMO. It also goes against what Martin has pointed out time and time again. Aerys Targaryen was the rightful king of Westeros, he was dethroned by the power of Robert Baratheon and his backers. Ned Stark was in the right when he sought to unthrone Joffrey but he lost his head for it. Stannis is the rightful heir to Robert Baratheon's throne but he was denied first by his more popular brother and then at the Bay of Blackwater by the force of wyldfire and the combined might of the Lannisters and Highgarden. The Starks are the rightful rulers of the north but it was first half-taken by the Greyjoys and then stripped from the by the back stabbing nature of the Boltons. Aegon Targaryen and his sisters did not conquer the Seven Kingdoms because he was the rightful ruler, he did it because he had the ability to do it and he executed that ability perfectly. There's also that George R. R. Martin likes to surprise readers often throughout the series. So in short, I would be disappointed if she was the ruler at the end.

I m rooting for littlefinger with maergery. Jaimie could be nice too. I need to see the bad stuff about littlefinger to start disliking him haha. Right now i still see him as awesome.

Really wonder how long tomen will last... Sounds like he won t finish the season.

I'm guessing you didn't pick up on Littlefinger's fixation with Sansa in the last episode.

[patches70]

So in short, I would be disappointed if she was the ruler at the end.

You should be prepared for the possibility for disappointment, then.

There is that pesky prophecy that the entire book series is named, after all.

[strike wolf]

So in short, I would be disappointed if she was the ruler at the end.

You should be prepared for the possibility for disappointment, then.

There is that pesky prophecy that the entire book series is named, after all.

There is plenty of fire and ice that doesn't belong to her.

[betiko]

oh well i saw that there was something with sansa, just don't really understand yet his plans, he didn't get the mum so he wants the aunt/sister and the daughter? and maergery wouldn't end up with littlefinger, i know that. but it would still be funny.

[denominator]

Book Daenerys is very different from show Daenerys.

I am a big fan of book Daenerys. Reading her thoughts and the detail of her story, intentions, and working through all of her dilemmas makes her a powerful and mostly just character. She actually learns from her experiences, unlike other characters (Ned, Sansa, Renly, Jon, etc).

In the show, without that backstory and level of detail, and with the slight changes they've made (her silver dying, Barristan being known from his introduction, her handmaidens dying, lack of Strong Belwas), she becomes a much more vindictive character with fewer redeeming and empathetic qualities. She becomes very whiny, very predictable, and very boring.

I find the same with Jon Snow. Quite a fan of him in the books because of the inner dialogue, but not a fan of him in the series because this is left out. It seems much more clear in the show that Daenerys and Jon are the keystone characters while the rest are generally interchangeable, while the books make this much more vague.

[strike wolf]

Jon's key to the Wall. I am not sure about the rest of everything. I still like Jon in both the books and the show. You can see his evolution if you look closely. Funnily enough about Daenerys is that I liked her originally (some of it had worn off by the end of season 3 but I still found the story line interesting) and it was really not until I started reading the books that I grew less sympathetic to her character.