Conquer Club

Merged 9/11 Threads

\\OFF-TOPIC// conversations about everything that has nothing to do with Conquer Club.

Moderator: Community Team

Forum rules
Please read the Community Guidelines before posting.

Was 9/11 An Inside Job?

 
Total votes : 0

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:59 pm

Dekloren wrote:Yes.

I find that very interesting.

I have clips of people right at the WTC saying they saw no plane. Even a reporter on CNN says he didn't see one..

Just interesting stuff.

I'm not saying there was no plane. There may not have been. I wasn't there to see it with my own eyes. And please don't spin that.

Wow some people are blind so they didn't see the plane and of course the journalists never lie and are never wrong! And of course the few eyewitnesses which prove your theory are right while 99.99% of eyewitness who don't are wrong! :roll:
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Frigidus on Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:59 pm

Dekloren wrote:Just like them Iranians said they were gonna blow up the US ships.


What does this have to do with anything? This proves 9/11? Oh, you're saying the government doesn't always tell the truth? No kidding.

Dekloren wrote:Just like that passpart cited in the first post..
Just like the UNSCATHED bullet found not even on Govener Connoley's stretcher, that apprently went through like 12 things.
Gulf of Tonkin....


Wait...the Kennedy assassination? You're kidding me. Gulf of Tonkin I'll give you but the Kennedy thing has been analyzed out the ass. You're jumping at straws if you think that was staged.

Dekloren wrote:The debris falling?? Why was there debris flying everywhere in an explosive fashion???


As the building collapsed air and loose rubble rushed out from between the floors. Explosive fashion? Really. Describe this "fashion".

Dekloren wrote:Duuhhhhhh


Er...yeah.

Dekloren wrote:It's fantastic how now one attacks the facts, but come up with more conspiracies. Then call me a conspiracy theorist!

What a joke!!


More conspiracies? So you're saying that because we don't believe it's a conspiracy that we think there's a conspiracy to make it seem like a conspiracy? This is a joke, you have no solid evidence.
User avatar
Sergeant Frigidus
 
Posts: 1638
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 1:15 pm
Location: Illinois, USA

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:06 pm

Yay!! A half decent reply!!

The government voice over what the Iranians really said...And you claim bin Laden said he did 9/11...Have you not watched the videos and seen the fake bin Laden?? lol....

lol........Have you seen a picture of the "magic" bullet? Have you not read the official report the government gave, titles The MAGIC BULLET THEORY?
LOL

"According to the single bullet theory, a one-inch long, copper jacketed, lead core 6.5 millimeter rifle bullet fired from the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository passed through President Kennedy’s neck, Governor Connally’s chest and wrist and embedded itself in the Governor’s thigh. In doing so, the bullet traversed 15 layers of clothing, 7 layers of skin, approximately 15 inches of tissue, struck a tie knot, removed 4 inches of rib and shattered a radius bone. The bullet that is supposed to have done all this damage was found not on Governor Connally’s stretcher, but on the stretcher next to his in the corridor at the Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas."

Now,
http://www.geletka.com/j/
There's pictures of the bullet they found, not on Connoleys stretcher, but on an empty one beside him.

Fabrication?!?!?
*Gasp*

Also, Keneddy was assassinated at the tip of the apex. Google that. Learn.

I thought we were talking about the 20 tonne beams that were lodge in adjacent buildings???
But in any case, I like to have fun.
Yeah, something pushing down, naturally causes an equal and opposite reaction ie air and loose rubble coming out on the way down. But if you watch several videos of the collapse, you can see the squibs, google that if you don't know what it is, MUCH MUCH lower from the collapse. Also, you can see "sparks" and stuff as it's coming down and even while it's still standing. If you want the video evidence, let me know.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:15 pm

I asked you not to spin it.
You just ask stupid questions to try and get something??

You're a fucking joke.

Seriously.

lol...Are you trying to say I said there were no planes?? Only at the Pentagon. And Flight 93 was shot down.

Google rumsfeld shot down flight 93...Hear it out of his own mouth at a press conference.

And please, stop being a clown.



http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlbdJjyhW2c

Watch the thermate ooze out...Where is that molten metal coming from, if NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.

What is that molten metal, and where did it come from?

Also, http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_2005.html , take a look at the Windsor building fire in Madrid. Now that's a RAGING inferno, yet the building still stands!!! What a surprise!!

In 1991 the Meridian Plaza fire in Philadelphia burned for approximately nineteen hours consuming much of eight floors.

The First Interstate Bank fire burned overnight in 1988. The building was a sixty two story steel framed high-rise in Los Angeles, California. The fire destroyed four floors, yet the building never collapsed.

The Empire State Building is probably the most similar event to happen to another high-rise structure. In 1945 a B-25 bomber was lost in the fog when it slammed into the Empire State Building. A B-52 bomber is commiserate with a modern day airliner, in regards to weight, payload, and the amount of fuel it carries. The bomber struck the seventy ninth floor, but did little structural damage, resulting in the loss of fourteen lives. Nevertheless, the Empire State Building stands intact to this day.


Do do dododo do do do doo dooooo
Last edited by Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby The Weird One on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:22 pm

unriggable wrote:
Dekloren wrote:The buildings didn't fall at freefall speed?


Look at the debris falling around the towers, the building collapses slightly slower than that. So no.

EDIT: Osama himself said he did it, and all those who hit the towers were affiliated with him. Case closed...

he denied any part in it, but congratulated whoever did it on a job well done.
sheepofdumb wrote:I'm not scum, just a threat to the town. There's a difference, thank you very much.

ga7 wrote: I'll keep my vote where it should be but just in case Vote Strike Wolf AND f*ck FLAMINGOS f*ck THEM HARD
User avatar
Sergeant The Weird One
 
Posts: 7059
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 8:21 pm
Location: cursing the spiteful dice gods

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:26 pm

Dekloren wrote:I asked you not to spin it.
You just ask stupid questions to try and get something??

You're a fucking joke.

Seriously.

lol...Are you trying to say I said there were no planes?? Only at the Pentagon. And Flight 93 was shot down.

Google rumsfeld shot down flight 93...Hear it out of his own mouth at a press conference.

And please, stop being a clown.



http://youtube.com/watch?v=SlbdJjyhW2c

Watch the thermate ooze out...Where is that molten metal coming from, if NIST's own studies confirmed that virtually none of the steel in either tower reached temperatures hotter than 500 degrees. The point at which steel weakens is 1000 degrees and melting point is reached at 1,500 degrees, according to NIST itself.

What is that molten metal, and where did it come from?


The long NIST Quote which backglass provided explains. If I remember correctly it is a mixture of aluminium with something
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:27 pm

The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

How about keeping up to date???
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:28 pm

No actually they explained it.

Oh and to your question:
11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:29 pm

And to further disprove your bs

Backglass wrote:From the N.I.S.T. FAQ:

1. If the World Trade Center (WTC) towers were designed to withstand multiple impacts by Boeing 707 aircraft, why did the impact of individual 767s cause so much damage?

As stated in Section 5.3.2 of NIST NCSTAR 1, a document from the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey (PANYNJ) indicated that the impact of a [single, not multiple] Boeing 707 aircraft was analyzed during the design stage of the WTC towers. However, NIST investigators were unable to locate any documentation of the criteria and method used in the impact analysis and, therefore, were unable to verify the assertion that ā€œā€¦ such collision would result in only local damage which could not cause collapse or substantial damage to the building.ā€¦ā€

The capability to conduct rigorous simulations of the aircraft impact, the growth and spread of the ensuing fires, and the effects of fires on the structure is a recent development. Since the approach to structural modeling was developed for the NIST WTC investigation, the technical capability available to the PANYNJ and its consultants and contactors to perform such analyses in the 1960s would have been quite limited in comparison to the capabilities brought to bear in the NIST investigation.

The damage from the impact of a Boeing 767 aircraft (which is about 20 percent bigger than a Boeing 707) into each tower is well documented in NCSTAR 1-2. The massive damage was caused by the large mass of the aircraft, their high speed and momentum, which severed the relatively light steel of the exterior columns on the impact floors. The results of the NIST impact analyses matched well with observations (from photos and videos and analysis of recovered WTC steel) of exterior damage and of the amount and location of debris exiting from the buildings. This agreement supports the premise that the structural damage to the towers was due to the aircraft impact and not to any alternative forces.

2. Why did NIST not consider a ā€œcontrolled demolitionā€ hypothesis with matching computer modeling and explanation as it did for the ā€œpancake theoryā€ hypothesis? A key critique of NIST’s work lies in the complete lack of analysis supporting a ā€œprogressive collapseā€ after the point of collapse initiation and the lack of consideration given to a controlled demolition hypothesis.

NIST conducted an extremely thorough three-year investigation into what caused the WTC towers to collapse, as explained in NIST’s dedicated Web site, http://wtc.nist.gov. This included consideration of a number of hypotheses for the collapses of the towers.

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the ā€œpancake theoryā€ of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel ā€œtrussesā€ integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.
diagram of composit wtc floor system

Diagram of Composite WTC Floor System

NIST’s findings also do not support the ā€œcontrolled demolitionā€ theory since there is conclusive evidence that:

* the collapse was initiated in the impact and fire floors of the WTC towers and nowhere else, and;

* the time it took for the collapse to initiate (56 minutes for WTC 2 and 102 minutes for WTC 1) was dictated by (1) the extent of damage caused by the aircraft impact, and (2) the time it took for the fires to reach critical locations and weaken the structure to the point that the towers could not resist the tremendous energy released by the downward movement of the massive top section of the building at and above the fire and impact floors.

Video evidence also showed unambiguously that the collapse progressed from the top to the bottom, and there was no evidence (collected by NIST, or by the New York Police Department, the Port Authority Police Department or the Fire Department of New York) of any blast or explosions in the region below the impact and fire floors as the top building sections (including and above the 98th floor in WTC 1 and the 82nd floor in WTC 2) began their downward movement upon collapse initiation.

In summary, NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to Sept. 11, 2001. NIST also did not find any evidence that missiles were fired at or hit the towers. Instead, photographs and videos from several angles clearly show that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward until the dust clouds obscured the view.

3. How could the WTC towers have collapsed without a controlled demolition since no steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires? Temperatures due to fire don't get hot enough for buildings to collapse.

The collapse of the WTC towers was not caused either by a conventional building fire or even solely by the concurrent multi-floor fires that day. Instead, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large, jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires weakened the now susceptible structural steel. No building in the United States has ever been subjected to the massive structural damage and concurrent multi-floor fires that the towers experienced on Sept. 11, 2001.

4. Weren't the puffs of smoke that were seen, as the collapse of each WTC tower starts, evidence of controlled demolition explosions?

No. As stated in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, the falling mass of the building compressed the air ahead of it—much like the action of a piston—forcing smoke and debris out the windows as the stories below failed sequentially.

These puffs were observed at many locations as the towers collapsed. In all cases, they had the appearance of jets of gas being pushed from the building through windows or between columns on the mechanical floors. Such jets are expected since the air inside the building is compressed as the tower falls and must flow somewhere as the pressure builds. It is significant that similar ā€œpuffsā€ were observed numerous times on the fire floors in both towers prior to their collapses, perhaps due to falling walls or portions of a floor. Puffs from WTC 1 were even observed when WTC 2 was struck by the aircraft. These observations confirm that even minor overpressures were transmitted through the towers and forced smoke and debris from the building.

5. Why were two distinct spikes—one for each tower—seen in seismic records before the towers collapsed? Isn't this indicative of an explosion occurring in each tower?

The seismic spikes for the collapse of the WTC Towers are the result of debris from the collapsing towers impacting the ground. The spikes began approximately 10 seconds after the times for the start of each building’s collapse and continued for approximately 15 seconds. There were no seismic signals that occurred prior to the initiation of the collapse of either tower. The seismic record contains no evidence that would indicate explosions occurring prior to the collapse of the towers.

6. How could the WTC towers collapse in only 11 seconds (WTC 1) and 9 seconds (WTC 2)—speeds that approximate that of a ball dropped from similar height in a vacuum (with no air resistance)?

NIST estimated the elapsed times for the first exterior panels to strike the ground after the collapse initiated in each of the towers to be approximately 11 seconds for WTC 1 and approximately 9 seconds for WTC 2. These elapsed times were based on: (1) precise timing of the initiation of collapse from video evidence, and (2) ground motion (seismic) signals recorded at Palisades, N.Y., that also were precisely time-calibrated for wave transmission times from lower Manhattan (see NCSTAR 1-5A).

As documented in Section 6.14.4 of NIST NCSTAR 1, these collapse times show that:

ā€œā€¦ the structure below the level of collapse initiation offered minimal resistance to the falling building mass at and above the impact zone. The potential energy released by the downward movement of the large building mass far exceeded the capacity of the intact structure below to absorb that energy through energy of deformation.

Since the stories below the level of collapse initiation provided little resistance to the tremendous energy released by the falling building mass, the building section above came down essentially in free fall, as seen in videos. As the stories below sequentially failed, the falling mass increased, further increasing the demand on the floors below, which were unable to arrest the moving mass.ā€

In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass.

From video evidence, significant portions of the cores of both buildings (roughly 60 stories of WTC 1 and 40 stories of WTC 2) are known to have stood 15 to 25 seconds after collapse initiation before they, too, began to collapse. Neither the duration of the seismic records nor video evidence (due to obstruction of view caused by debris clouds) are reliable indicators of the total time it took for each building to collapse completely.

7a. How could the steel have melted if the fires in the WTC towers weren’t hot enough to do so?
OR
7b. Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700 degrees Fahrenheit, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800 degrees Fahrenheit and Underwriters Laboratories (UL) certified the steel in the WTC towers to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hours, how could fires have impacted the steel enough to bring down the WTC towers?


In no instance did NIST report that steel in the WTC towers melted due to the fires. The melting point of steel is about 1,500 degrees Celsius (2,800 degrees Fahrenheit). Normal building fires and hydrocarbon (e.g., jet fuel) fires generate temperatures up to about 1,100 degrees Celsius (2,000 degrees Fahrenheit). NIST reported maximum upper layer air temperatures of about 1,000 degrees Celsius (1,800 degrees Fahrenheit) in the WTC towers (for example, see NCSTAR 1, Figure 6-36).

However, when bare steel reaches temperatures of 1,000 degrees Celsius, it softens and its strength reduces to roughly 10 percent of its room temperature value. Steel that is unprotected (e.g., if the fireproofing is dislodged) can reach the air temperature within the time period that the fires burned within the towers. Thus, yielding and buckling of the steel members (floor trusses, beams, and both core and exterior columns) with missing fireproofing were expected under the fire intensity and duration determined by NIST for the WTC towers.

UL did not certify any steel as suggested. In fact, in U.S. practice, steel is not certified at all; rather structural assemblies are tested for their fire resistance rating in accordance with a standard procedure such as ASTM E 119 (see NCSTAR 1-6B). That the steel was ā€œcertified ... to 2000 degrees Fahrenheit for six hoursā€ is simply not true.

8. We know that the sprinkler systems were activated because survivors reported water in the stairwells. If the sprinklers were working, how could there be a 'raging inferno' in the WTC towers?

Both the NIST calculations and interviews with survivors and firefighters indicated that the aircraft impacts severed the water pipes that carried the water to the sprinkler systems. The sprinklers were not operating on the principal fire floors.

However, there were ample sources of the water in the stairwells. The water pipes ran vertically within the stairwells. Moreover, there would have been copious water from the broken restroom supply lines and from the water tanks that supplied the initial water for the sprinklers. Thus, it is not surprising that evacuating occupants encountered a lot of water.

Even if the automatic sprinklers had been operational, the sprinkler systems—which were installed in accordance with the prevailing fire safety code—were designed to suppress a fire that covered as much as 1,500 square feet on a given floor. This amount of coverage is capable of controlling almost all fires that are likely to occur in an office building. On Sept. 11, 2001, the jet-fuel ignited fires quickly spread over most of the 40,000 square feet on several floors in each tower. This created infernos that could not have been suppressed even by an undamaged sprinkler system, much less one that had been appreciably degraded.

9. If thick black smoke is characteristic of an oxygen-starved, lower temperature, less intense fire, why was thick black smoke exiting the WTC towers when the fires inside were supposed to be extremely hot?

Nearly all indoor large fires, including those of the principal combustibles in the WTC towers, produce large quantities of optically thick, dark smoke. This is because, at the locations where the actual burning is taking place, the oxygen is severely depleted and the combustibles are not completely oxidized to colorless carbon dioxide and water.

The visible part of fire smoke consists of small soot particles whose formation is favored by the incomplete combustion associated with oxygen-depleted burning. Once formed, the soot from the tower fires was rapidly pushed away from the fires into less hot regions of the building or directly to broken windows and breaks in the building exterior. At these lower temperatures, the soot could no longer burn away. Thus, people saw the thick dark smoke characteristic of burning under oxygen-depleted conditions.

10. Why were people seen in the gaps left by the plane impacts if the heat from the fires behind them was so excessive?

NIST believes that the persons seen were away from any strong heat source and most likely in an area that at the time was a point where the air for combustion was being drawn into the building to support the fires. Note that people were observed only in the openings in WTC 1.

According to the International Standard ISO/TS 13571, people will be in severe pain within seconds if they are near the radiant heat level generated by a large fire. Thus, it is not surprising that none of the photographs show a person standing in those gaps where there also was a sizable fire.

The fire behavior following the aircraft impacts is described in NIST NCSTAR 1-5A. In general, there was little sustained fire near the area where the aircraft hit the towers. Immediately upon impact of the aircraft, large fireballs from the atomized jet fuel consumed all the local oxygen. (This in itself would have made those locations rapidly unlivable.) The fireballs receded quickly and were followed by fires that grew inside the tower where there was a combination of combustible material, air and an ignition source. Little combustible material remained near the aircraft entry gashes since the aircraft "bulldozed" much of it toward the interior of the building. Also, some of the contents fell through the breaks in the floor to the stories below.

Therefore, the people observed in these openings must have survived the aircraft impact and moved—once the fireballs had dissipated—to the openings where the temperatures were cooler and the air was clearer than in the building interior.

11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.

12. Did the NIST investigation look for evidence of the WTC towers being brought down by controlled demolition? Was the steel tested for explosives or thermite residues? The combination of thermite and sulfur (called thermate) "slices through steel like a hot knife through butter."

NIST did not test for the residue of these compounds in the steel.

The responses to questions number 2, 4, 5 and 11 demonstrate why NIST concluded that there were no explosives or controlled demolition involved in the collapses of the WTC towers.

Furthermore, a very large quantity of thermite (a mixture of powdered or granular aluminum metal and powdered iron oxide that burns at extremely high temperatures when ignited) or another incendiary compound would have had to be placed on at least the number of columns damaged by the aircraft impact and weakened by the subsequent fires to bring down a tower. Thermite burns slowly relative to explosive materials and can require several minutes in contact with a massive steel section to heat it to a temperature that would result in substantial weakening. Separate from the WTC towers investigation, NIST researchers estimated that at least 0.13 pounds of thermite would be required to heat each pound of a steel section to approximately 700 degrees Celsius (the temperature at which steel weakens substantially). Therefore, while a thermite reaction can cut through large steel columns, many thousands of pounds of thermite would need to have been placed inconspicuously ahead of time, remotely ignited, and somehow held in direct contact with the surface of hundreds of massive structural components to weaken the building. This makes it an unlikely substance for achieving a controlled demolition. :)

Analysis of the WTC steel for the elements in thermite/thermate would not necessarily have been conclusive. The metal compounds also would have been present in the construction materials making up the WTC towers, and sulfur is present in the gypsum wallboard that was prevalent in the interior partitions.

13. Why did the NIST investigation not consider reports of molten steel in the wreckage from the WTC towers?

NIST investigators and experts from the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) and the Structural Engineers Association of New York (SEONY)—who inspected the WTC steel at the WTC site and the salvage yards—found no evidence that would support the melting of steel in a jet-fuel ignited fire in the towers prior to collapse. The condition of the steel in the wreckage of the WTC towers (i.e., whether it was in a molten state or not) was irrelevant to the investigation of the collapse since it does not provide any conclusive information on the condition of the steel when the WTC towers were standing.

NIST considered the damage to the steel structure and its fireproofing caused by the aircraft impact and the subsequent fires when the buildings were still standing since that damage was responsible for initiating the collapse of the WTC towers.

Under certain circumstances it is conceivable for some of the steel in the wreckage to have melted after the buildings collapsed. Any molten steel in the wreckage was more likely due to the high temperature resulting from long exposure to combustion within the pile than to short exposure to fires or explosions while the buildings were standing.

14. Why is the NIST investigation of the collapse of WTC 7 (the 47-story office building that collapsed on Sept. 11, 2001, hours after the towers) taking so long to complete? Is a controlled demolition hypothesis being considered to explain the collapse?

When NIST initiated the WTC investigation, it made a decision not to hire new staff to support the investigation. After the June 2004 progress report on the WTC investigation was issued, the NIST investigation team stopped working on WTC 7 and was assigned full-time through the fall of 2005 to complete the investigation of the WTC towers. With the release and dissemination of the report on the WTC towers in October 2005, the investigation of the WTC 7 collapse resumed. Considerable progress has been made since that time, including the review of nearly 80 boxes of new documents related to WTC 7, the development of detailed technical approaches for modeling and analyzing various collapse hypotheses, and the selection of a contractor to assist NIST staff in carrying out the analyses. It is anticipated that a draft report will be released for public comment by the end of 2007 and that the final report will be released in early 2008.

The current NIST working collapse hypothesis for WTC 7 is described in the June 2004 Progress Report on the Federal Building and Fire Safety Investigation of the World Trade Center Disaster (Volume 1, page 17, as well as Appendix L), as follows:

* An initial local failure occurred at the lower floors (below floor 13) of the building due to fire and/or debris-induced structural damage of a critical column (the initiating event) which supported a large-span floor bay with an area of about 2,000 square feet;

* Vertical progression of the initial local failure occurred up to the east penthouse, and as the large floor bays became unable to redistribute the loads, it brought down the interior structure below the east penthouse; and

* Triggered by damage due to the vertical failure, horizontal progression of the failure across the lower floors (in the region of floors 5 and 7 that were much thicker and more heavily reinforced than the rest of the floors) resulted in a disproportionate collapse of the entire structure.

This hypothesis may be supported or modified, or new hypotheses may be developed, through the course of the continuing investigation. NIST also is considering whether hypothetical blast events could have played a role in initiating the collapse. While NIST has found no evidence of a blast or controlled demolition event, NIST would like to determine the magnitude of hypothetical blast scenarios that could have led to the structural failure of one or more critical elements.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:30 pm

I'm having trouble finding the experiment where Steven Jones shows what pouring molten aluminum looks like.

It's silver, by the way.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:31 pm

Learn to read dumbass!


Iliad wrote:No actually they explained it.

Oh and to your question:
11. Why do some photographs show a yellow stream of molten metal pouring down the side of WTC2 that NIST claims was aluminum from the crashed plane although aluminum burns with a white glow?

NIST reported (NCSTAR 1-5A) that just before 9:52 a.m., a bright spot appeared at the top of a window on the 80th floor of WTC 2, four windows removed from the east edge on the north face, followed by the flow of a glowing liquid. This flow lasted approximately four seconds before subsiding. Many such liquid flows were observed from near this location in the seven minutes leading up to the collapse of this tower. There is no evidence of similar molten liquid pouring out from another location in WTC 2 or from anywhere within WTC 1.

Photographs, and NIST simulations of the aircraft impact, show large piles of debris in the 80th and 81st floors of WTC 2 near the site where the glowing liquid eventually appeared. Much of this debris came from the aircraft itself and from the office furnishings that the aircraft pushed forward as it tunneled to this far end of the building. Large fires developed on these piles shortly after the aircraft impact and continued to burn in the area until the tower collapsed.

NIST concluded that the source of the molten material was aluminum alloys from the aircraft, since these are known to melt between 475 degrees Celsius and 640 degrees Celsius (depending on the particular alloy), well below the expected temperatures (about 1,000 degrees Celsius) in the vicinity of the fires. Aluminum is not expected to ignite at normal fire temperatures and there is no visual indication that the material flowing from the tower was burning.

Pure liquid aluminum would be expected to appear silvery. However, the molten metal was very likely mixed with large amounts of hot, partially burned, solid organic materials (e.g., furniture, carpets, partitions and computers) which can display an orange glow, much like logs burning in a fireplace. The apparent color also would have been affected by slag formation on the surface.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:31 pm

The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

Watch the video.

Is that 4 seconds?

So you're telling me that the aluminum from the plane poured out like that, when the "plane" at the Pentagon discintegrated??

Somethings not adding up!!

lol large fires??? Have you not heard the NYFD radio trasmission??

"We've got 2 isolated pockets of fire, we should be able to take them out with 2 lines"


Duurrr
Last edited by Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:32 pm

Why I'm wasting my time I don't know. You are not going to change your opinion no matter how much evidence we show and you aren't even reading what we're saying. What a fucking surprise
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:33 pm

[quote="Dekloren"]The National Institute for Standards and Technology has been forced to admit that the total free-fall collapse of the twin towers cannot be explained after an exhaustive scientific study, implicitly acknowledging that controlled demolition is the only means by which the buildings could have come down.

Watch the video.

Is that 4 seconds?

So you're telling me that the aluminum from the plane poured out like that, when the "plane" at the Pentagon discintegrated??

Somethings not adding up!![
/quote]Maybe you shouldn't have dropped out of high school then
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:34 pm

Laff..

What evidence have you shown??

An outdated rediculous paper by NIST that even they admit is bullshit??

Come on, clown.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:36 pm

>>>>>>>>


<3

Still see ZERO evidence of Al-CIA-da commtting 9/11.

I guess it's a conspiracy!
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:46 pm

Dekloren wrote:Laff..

What evidence have you shown??

An outdated rediculous paper by NIST that even they admit is bullshit??

Come on, clown.
:lol:
You make the outrageous claims and then you want us to provide evidence? Provide the evidence yourself oh wait a second what am I thinking you're a conspiracy theorist what evidence?

You provide no evidence. You show some shitty clips. You claim that a few blind eyewitnesses and a journalist(Oh noez!) are correct and everyone else isn't. You provide the same olethings which we have disputed and you don't read the posts because you would've seen why teh aluminium alloy was yellow/orange

Outline of this thread:
You claimed that the towers fell faster than freefall speed: we rebutted by pointing out the debris
You said one of the firemen said pull the building down as in demolish it: we rebutted by telling you he meant using cables
You then resorted to the ole trick by changing the topic to something completely different.
You said there was melted steel: I showed you why there was and what it was. You didn't even fucking read it!!! You continued to spouse your shit.
So in other words: you got completely owned.

Oh and another thing: Let's imagine for a second that it is a conspiracy(oh noez!). If the government is willing to kill thousands of their own people to start a war what would stop them killing people who started the conspiracy?
Or just say ban you and delete your posts?

Now let's resume to normality. Ah that's better. Conspiracy theorist have you realised how every time there was an important event people always spun a conspiracy theory about it? Got something to do with not being on terms with reality. I bet you that every time a king died of old age people would spin rumours that he was murdured.

So you need some ice for that burn?
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:55 pm

OOooookkkkaaayyy....

I have provided much evidence. Video evidence, picture evidence, eyewitness reports.

Okay..I think you are trying to say that I said there were no planes??? Link???

Alluminum is silver. Carpet or whatever else you want to think made it a glowing red, does not. If you provide video evidence of such a thing, sure I'll beleive you. On the other hand, Steve Jones conducted said experiemtns, with molten alluminum, adding regular office objects in the mix as well, and still silver.
If you want, I'll spend a little time finding it.

Link to where I said the towers fell faster than freefall? I said the towers fell at freefall, then gave evidence. Seismographs from ..Columbia Uni I think, proves that both fell in just over 10 seconds, when freefall speed would be 9.5ish. There's always air resistance.

You said one of the firemen said pull the building down as in demolish it: we rebutted by telling you he meant using cables

LOL

Larry Silverstein said that. And show me the "cables" you are talking about?? Check out the PBS interview of him saying that. How did they pull down a 47 story steel structure with cable?? lol.....


In the rubble of the Towers, and building 7 were pools of molten metal for weeks, even months after the demolition. If the fires were hot enough to melt the steel, where did all the heat come from??? lol.


Yeah, they did it. They put flupride in our water, the put asparthame in our food/drinks, they put mercury in vaccines. Don't you just love toxic waste???

Keep going clown.

You're a fool.

And also, I said that in the video I provided, first responding NY fire fighter said the floors just started popping out one after another Boom boom boom boom *Insert action of floors popping out with hand* It was like a controlled demolition!!
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Iliad on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:58 pm

Dekloren wrote:OOooookkkkaaayyy....

I have provided much evidence. Video evidence, picture evidence, eyewitness reports.

Okay..I think you are trying to say that I said there were no planes??? Link???

Alluminum is silver. Carpet or whatever else you want to think made it a glowing red, does not. If you provide video evidence of such a thing, sure I'll beleive you. On the other hand, Steve Jones conducted said experiemtns, with molten alluminum, adding regular office objects in the mix as well, and still silver.
If you want, I'll spend a little time finding it.

Link to where I said the towers fell faster than freefall? I said the towers fell at freefall, then gave evidence. Seismographs from ..Columbia Uni I think, proves that both fell in just over 10 seconds, when freefall speed would be 9.5ish. There's always air resistance.

You said one of the firemen said pull the building down as in demolish it: we rebutted by telling you he meant using cables

LOL

Larry Silverstein said that. And show me the "cables" you are talking about?? Check out the PBS interview of him saying that. How did they pull down a 47 story steel structure with cable?? lol.....


In the rubble of the Towers, and building 7 were pools of molten metal for weeks, even months after the demolition. If the fires were hot enough to melt the steel, where did all the heat come from??? lol.


Yeah, they did it. They put flupride in our water, the put asparthame in our food/drinks, they put mercury in vaccines. Don't you just love toxic waste???

Keep going clown.

You're a fool.
Well if you have mercury in your vaccines that would explain you being a conspiracy theorist.

I've done this too many times. At first it's okay but then when the person shows his idiocy and stubborness it gets annoying.


Goodbye come back to the forums when you have an IQ higher then the average lemming
User avatar
Private 1st Class Iliad
 
Posts: 10394
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:48 am

Postby Dekloren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:59 pm

Awesome reply!

Hahaha

Clown.
Nice try though.

Seriously.

Come back and try another day!
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Dekloren on Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:46 am

<3
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Dekloren on Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:47 am

<3
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Neutrino on Wed Feb 06, 2008 1:56 am

Dekloren wrote:NIST admitted their ten thousand page was a fraud.

I laugh at anyone who brings NIST up into this.

You needed NIST to say the pancake theory is retarded?

Floors can't collapse on top of each other, while going at freefall speed. It's common sense.

Those buildings fell in the path of greatest resistance, BUT NO RESISTANCE was met. Where were the 100 floors beneth??? The only way those buildings fall at freefall speed, symmetrically, is if all the massive joints and trusses and supports ALL fail simotaneously.

The only way that happens......*Gasp*

And I do really appreciate your posts!


May I be the first to point out that no credible scientist, anywhere, is claiming the Towers free-fell? Being inside a planet's atmosphere automatically disqualifys an object from free-falling. The resistance from the air counters part of the effects of gravity, and therefore the object is not free-falling. Anyone who declares that the towers "free-fell" is not to be trusted in any aspect of physics, or life in general.
We own all your helmets, we own all your shoes, we own all your generals. Touch us and you loooose...

The Rogue State!
User avatar
Corporal Neutrino
 
Posts: 2693
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:53 am
Location: Combating the threat of dihydrogen monoxide.

Postby Dekloren on Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:24 am

That's all you can come up with?

Floors can't collapse on top of each other, while going at freefall speed. It's common sense.

The towers fell at near free fall speed.

Just over 10 seconds, when freefall speed would be 9.2 seconds.

Accounts for air resistance ^^
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby Dekloren on Wed Feb 06, 2008 2:27 am

Any evidence linking alCIAda to 9/11??

Anything???
Other than that the US trained and funded them.

Laff.
User avatar
Private 1st Class Dekloren
 
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:11 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada

PreviousNext

Return to Acceptable Content

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users