USA land of liberty

[jimboston]

As far as this student goes, she has no legal case. Countries don't need reasons to revoke temporary visas of non-citizens. As long as they can prove she is who her visa says she is it's game over. She has every right to come here and protest with fear of imprisonment (that's what the BOR guarantees), and the US gov't has every right to revoke her visa and send her back to her country of citizenship for any reason or non-reason they may want to provide. She can then, from her home country petition the gov't and start a court case if she thinks laws were broken in her deportation. All this talk about coming under false pretenses is political rhetoric, it's not legally meaningful in her case (IMO as a non-lawyer who has alot of immigration case experience).

Due process is what actually matters. Either due process exists or it doesn't. If any individual isn't afforded a chance to prove they are legally here, then how you interpret the bill of rights and constitution doesn't actually matter much. In her case the gov't can prove she's here legally, but they ultimately they can pull the visa and make her here illegally for any reason under US law. the rounding up of undocumented people without a court proceeding to prove who they are is a way bigger legal quagmire.

If the US govt can send americans to overseas prisons (mistakenly or not) without being given a chance to prove they are American in an American court, fighting over what words mean is pretty irrelevant because the bill of rights is dead.

I'm not touching EU countries deporting other EU passport holders, i have no clue how that is supposed to work.

Mostly agree.

I think the government has overstepped some… in the case of the green card holder who is also married to a citizen for example… of the doctor from Brown University who was refused entry. I think these cases are not as clear as the case Ralf cited.

I think the government and courts have been WAY too lenient / liberal in their interpretation of the Right to Asylum for the past decade plus. This is what has caused the current crisis… and frankly is one of a just a few reasons that Trump won over the Democrats. I think in most cases the deportations in recent weeks have been legal. There’s no description of what constitutes “due process” in the Constitution. It should take only a few days to determine the legal status of a person and deport them… there NO reason that it should drag for months on end.

I have yet to hear of a case where an actual citizen was illegally deported.

Certainly there have been cases where ICE has claimed the person was a gang member… and his family or friends deny this. In none of these cases was the legal immigration status in question. The only question was should the person be deported for being a gang member… or should he just be deported for being here illegally. This is NOT a difference that means much to the average US citizen.

[mookiemcgee]

I have yet to hear of a case where an actual citizen was illegally deported.

Without due process, how would anyone reach out to media or try and prove they were american? Do you keep your US passport on you at all time? Maybe in time stories will come out, but its hard to prove your case from 24 hour solitary in a El Salvadorian gulag... that's why due process exists.

The US gov't accountability office (watchdog agency under congressional authority) wrote a report a few years back suggesting as many as 70 US citizens were deported during Trumps first term.
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487

Saying courts should move faster is fine, everyone would probably agree... the problem is how to you make it quick, and who is paying for all the judges so that it happens quickly. I do agree that people coming in have caught on to the fact that our immigration courts are in complete disarray and they can exploit a broken system by claiming asylum and then disappearing in the 2 years before their first court date. The answer certainly isn't having the executive branch just ignoring immigration court orders and shipping people off in direct violation of an active due process court case. if the solution to that is deporting people first and having court cases years later in absensia (maybe it is *shrug*), that leaves alot of room for the gov't 'discovering' they deported an american and denied them consitutional rights for years while forcing them to become an illegal immigrant in some other country.

It's all very sticky/tricky stuff... but a student visa being revoked? there isn't much to debate legally there.

[jusplay4fun]

I have yet to hear of a case where an actual citizen was illegally deported.

Without due process, how would anyone reach out to media or try and prove they were american? Do you keep your US passport on you at all time? Maybe in time stories will come out, but its hard to prove your case from 24 hour solitary in a El Salvadorian gulag... that's why due process exists.

The US gov't accountability office (watchdog agency under congressional authority) wrote a report a few years back suggesting as many as 70 US citizens were deported during Trumps first term.
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487

Saying courts should move faster is fine, everyone would probably agree... the problem is how to you make it quick, and who is paying for all the judges so that it happens quickly. I do agree that people coming in have caught on to the fact that our immigration courts are in complete disarray and they can exploit a broken system by claiming asylum and then disappearing in the 2 years before their first court date. The answer certainly isn't having the executive branch just ignoring immigration court orders and shipping people off in direct violation of an active due process court case. if the solution to that is deporting people first and having court cases years later in absensia (maybe it is *shrug*), that leaves alot of room for the gov't 'discovering' they deported an american and denied them consitutional rights for years while forcing them to become an illegal immigrant in some other country.

It's all very sticky/tricky stuff... but a student visa being revoked? there isn't much to debate legally there.

One legal US Citizen has apparently been deported to El Salvador:

Judge orders return of wrongly deported Maryland man to US from El Salvador

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/us-judge-hear-lawsuit-man-deported-el-salvador-error-2025-04-04/

One KEY issue for me:
Should the US Government expeditiously deport illegal immigrants who are members of VIOLENT street gangs (such as MS13 and others) to PROTECT US citizens from murder and other very violent acts? YES.

Are such actions done too quickly so as to make a mistake? PERHAPS. BUT, how many lives are saved and how many other VIOLENT acts (mutilations and beatings) are prevented by deportations of so many? Does prevention of many violent acts justify the HASTE of deportations? YES, one improper (illegal) deportation is one too many, but does the prevention of future violence against US Citizens justify such actions? Apparently the Supreme Court of the US (SCOTUS) will soon weigh such matters.

Trump administration says it deported 17 more ‘violent criminals’ to El Salvador

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Trump administration said Monday that it has deported 17 more “violent criminals” from the Tren de Aragua and MS-13 gangs to El Salvador, as it doubles down on a policy of removing people from the U.S. to countries other than their own despite criticism over lack of transparency and human rights issues.

The State Department said the immigrants were removed Sunday night. The statement said murderers and rapists were among them but didn’t give details of the nationalities or alleged crimes of those removed. The office of El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, however, said Salvadorans and Venezuelans were among the prisoners.

“These criminals will no longer terrorize our communities and citizens,” Secretary of State Marco Rubio said in the statement. “Once again, we extend our gratitude to President Bukele and the government of El Salvador for their unparalleled partnership.” (...)

More than 200 Venezuelan immigrants facing deportation were sent to El Salvador earlier this month and are also being held in the maximum security prison. (...)
On Monday evening, Trump thanked Bukele and told reporters, “I got elected on the basis of getting bad people out of our country that shouldn’t be here.”

Trump has claimed the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua is invading the United States and invoked the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, a wartime authority that allows the president broader leeway on policy and executive action to speed up mass deportations. He sent dozens of people to El Salvador before a judge barred further deportations under the act’s authority. The administration is now asking the Supreme Court to allow it to resume those deportations.

https://apnews.com/article/el-salvador-deportation-venezuela-tren-de-aragua-trump-0d3485e0985b9d30d493c9da0adf73ef

US deports more alleged gang members to El Salvador

The Trump administration has deported 17 more alleged gang members to El Salvador, the US state department has said, despite legal battles over removing people to the Central American country's supermax prison.

US Secretary of State Marco Rubio said the group included members of the Tren de Aragua and MS-13 gangs.

Salvadoran government officials told the BBC they included a mix of Venezuelans and Salvadorans.

Earlier this month a court ordered a halt to deportations carried out under the Alien Enemies Act, a 1798 law previously used only in wartime. However, US media, citing administration sources, reported that the recent deportations were made under general immigration laws.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c33zve3254no

Three High-Ranking MS-13 Gang Members Plead Guilty to Racketeering Charges in Connection With Nine Murders

(...)
“The defendants have admitted to their participation in numerous murders savagely committed with machetes and guns, all on behalf of the MS-13 and to increase their status in that depraved criminal organization,” stated Acting United States Attorney Pokorny. “As a result of the guilty pleas, the defendants will be severely punished by serving decades in prison and provide some measure of relief and closure to the families of the many victims.”

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/three-high-ranking-ms-13-gang-members-plead-guilty-racketeering-charges-connection

More on MS13

They perpetrate violence—from assaults to homicides, using firearms, machetes, or blunt objects—to intimidate rival gangs, law enforcement, and the general public. They often target middle and high school students for recruitment. And they form tenuous alliances...and sometimes vicious rivalries...with other criminal groups, depending on their needs at the time.

Who are they? Members of Mara Salvatrucha, better known as MS-13, who are mostly Salvadoran nationals or first generation Salvadoran-Americans, but also Hondurans, Guatemalans, Mexicans, and other Central and South American immigrants. And according to our recent national threat assessment of this growing, mobile street gang, they could be operating in your community...now or in the near future.

Based on information from our own investigations, from our state and local law enforcement partners, and from community organizations, we’ve concluded that while the threat posed by MS-13 to the U.S. as a whole is at the “medium” level, membership in parts of the country is so concentrated that we’ve labeled the threat level there “high.”

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/stories/2008/january/ms13_011408

and MORE here:
https://insightcrime.org/el-salvador-organized-crime-news/mara-salvatrucha-ms-13-profile/

[mookiemcgee]

One legal US Citizen has apparently been deported to El Salvador:

Judge orders return of wrongly deported Maryland man to US from El Salvador

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/us-judge-hear-lawsuit-man-deported-el-salvador-error-2025-04-04/

Did you read this? He is not a citizen, but was here legally on a work visa from El Salvador. An immigration judge ordered that he not be deported (yet) and the Trump team decided to send him to the El Salvador prison anyway and is now saying it was an accident... but they also have no authority in El Salvador order they he be returned.

This story is really less about the case, and more about executive appointees blatantly disregarding judicial orders.

[jusplay4fun]

One legal US Citizen has apparently been deported to El Salvador:

Judge orders return of wrongly deported Maryland man to US from El Salvador

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/us-judge-hear-lawsuit-man-deported-el-salvador-error-2025-04-04/

Did you read this? He is not a citizen, but was here legally on a work visa from El Salvador. An immigration judge ordered that he not be deported (yet) and the Trump team decided to send him to the El Salvador prison anyway and is now saying it was an accident... but they also have no authority in El Salvador order they he be returned.

This story is really less about the case, and more about executive appointees blatantly disregarding judicial orders.

Did you read the rest of my post, or do you want to nit-pick his exact status? Citizen or legally here? Does that status REALLY Matter?

Did you get the POINT of my post? That such actions are questionable and the matter will LIKELY go to SCOTUS soon. That there are many things to consider when deciding the legality and the ethics of such actions.

And further, while posting, my internet connection went OUT and I had to re-post nearly the ENTIRE thing, including back tracking to find the sources and summarize, so excuse me if I MISSED ONE MINOR point about his exact legal status.

Apparently I mistook his exact status. Sorry.

[jimboston]

I have yet to hear of a case where an actual citizen was illegally deported.

Without due process, how would anyone reach out to media or try and prove they were american? Do you keep your US passport on you at all time? Maybe in time stories will come out, but its hard to prove your case from 24 hour solitary in a El Salvadorian gulag... that's why due process exists.

The US gov't accountability office (watchdog agency under congressional authority) wrote a report a few years back suggesting as many as 70 US citizens were deported during Trumps first term.
https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-21-487

Saying courts should move faster is fine, everyone would probably agree... the problem is how to you make it quick, and who is paying for all the judges so that it happens quickly. I do agree that people coming in have caught on to the fact that our immigration courts are in complete disarray and they can exploit a broken system by claiming asylum and then disappearing in the 2 years before their first court date. The answer certainly isn't having the executive branch just ignoring immigration court orders and shipping people off in direct violation of an active due process court case. if the solution to that is deporting people first and having court cases years later in absensia (maybe it is *shrug*), that leaves alot of room for the gov't 'discovering' they deported an american and denied them consitutional rights for years while forcing them to become an illegal immigrant in some other country.

It's all very sticky/tricky stuff... but a student visa being revoked? there isn't much to debate legally there.

This comment is entirely TOO reasonable, and therefore has no place in this forum.

I’m pretty much in agreement with everything you say here.

[Dukasaur]

Should the US Government expeditiously deport illegal immigrants who are members of VIOLENT street gangs (such as MS13 and others) to PROTECT US citizens from murder and other very violent acts? YES.

Are such actions done too quickly so as to make a mistake? PERHAPS. BUT, how many lives are saved and how many other VIOLENT acts (mutilations and beatings) are prevented by deportations of so many?

I'd like to address just this one point in isolation.

You're making the assumption that just because someone was a member of a dangerous gang in the past, that they will be engaging in dangerous acts in the future.

In dangerous places, gang membership is often just a necessary part of surviving. You see it in your own country, where in certain neighbourhoods a kid growing up just joins the Bloods or whatever just because that's the most likely way to walk to school without getting rolled for his lunch money.

If someone manages to break free and leave those neighbourhoods, quite likely it's because he doesn't want to be part of gang life and is trying to get away from it.

You know it happens, even in affluent countries like yours. It's a hundred times more likely in the barrios of Brazil or other countries mired in poverty.

In the absence of proof to the contrary, my default assumtion is that someone who was in a gang in El Salvador and now lives in Helena, Montana is someone who is trying to change their life. Of course, not all are, and some are here to carry on their criminal ways. But the civilized assumption is that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

[jusplay4fun]

Should the US Government expeditiously deport illegal immigrants who are members of VIOLENT street gangs (such as MS13 and others) to PROTECT US citizens from murder and other very violent acts? YES.

Are such actions done too quickly so as to make a mistake? PERHAPS. BUT, how many lives are saved and how many other VIOLENT acts (mutilations and beatings) are prevented by deportations of so many?

I'd like to address just this one point in isolation.

You're making the assumption that just because someone was a member of a dangerous gang in the past, that they will be engaging in dangerous acts in the future.

In dangerous places, gang membership is often just a necessary part of surviving. You see it in your own country, where in certain neighbourhoods a kid growing up just joins the Bloods or whatever just because that's the most likely way to walk to school without getting rolled for his lunch money.

If someone manages to break free and leave those neighbourhoods, quite likely it's because he doesn't want to be part of gang life and is trying to get away from it.

You know it happens, even in affluent countries like yours. It's a hundred times more likely in the barrios of Brazil or other countries mired in poverty.

In the absence of proof to the contrary, my default assumtion is that someone who was in a gang in El Salvador and now lives in Helena, Montana is someone who is trying to change their life. Of course, not all are, and some are here to carry on their criminal ways. But the civilized assumption is that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

Let me address THAT one issue Duk. One of the articles I read and cited talked about the DIFFICULTY of "escaping" or getting away from that life-style. That is difficult (unless one moves to the wilderness of Montana or a similar place) because of gang tattoes make identification EASY and thus it is much harder to get away from that life style. I think it was in the last article that I cited, but did not quote directly. However, since I read SO MUCH that night, I cannot be sure where that infomation was written.

AND, as per AI overview. on gang recidivism:

In the US, street gang members exhibit the highest recidivism rates, with an 83.2% 5-year recidivism rate compared to 77.4% for prison gang members and 42.8% for non-gang members.

[Dukasaur]

Should the US Government expeditiously deport illegal immigrants who are members of VIOLENT street gangs (such as MS13 and others) to PROTECT US citizens from murder and other very violent acts? YES.

Are such actions done too quickly so as to make a mistake? PERHAPS. BUT, how many lives are saved and how many other VIOLENT acts (mutilations and beatings) are prevented by deportations of so many?

I'd like to address just this one point in isolation.

You're making the assumption that just because someone was a member of a dangerous gang in the past, that they will be engaging in dangerous acts in the future.

In dangerous places, gang membership is often just a necessary part of surviving. You see it in your own country, where in certain neighbourhoods a kid growing up just joins the Bloods or whatever just because that's the most likely way to walk to school without getting rolled for his lunch money.

If someone manages to break free and leave those neighbourhoods, quite likely it's because he doesn't want to be part of gang life and is trying to get away from it.

You know it happens, even in affluent countries like yours. It's a hundred times more likely in the barrios of Brazil or other countries mired in poverty.

In the absence of proof to the contrary, my default assumtion is that someone who was in a gang in El Salvador and now lives in Helena, Montana is someone who is trying to change their life. Of course, not all are, and some are here to carry on their criminal ways. But the civilized assumption is that someone is innocent until proven guilty.

Let me address THAT one issue Duk. One of the articles I read and cited talked about the DIFFICULTY of "escaping" or getting away from that life-style. That is difficult (unless one moves to the wilderness of Montana or a similar place) because of gang tattoes make identification EASY and thus it is much harder to get away from that life style. I think it was in the last article that I cited, but did not quote directly. However, since I read SO MUCH that night, I cannot be sure where that infomation was written.

AND, as per AI overview. on gang recidivism:

In the US, street gang members exhibit the highest recidivism rates, with an 83.2% 5-year recidivism rate compared to 77.4% for prison gang members and 42.8% for non-gang members.

I'm willing to believe the recidivism rate is high.

I still think the presumption of innocence is important. Even if only 17% can be saved, put names and faces on those 17% and then tell me you want to mail them to Bukele's Gulag.

[jimboston]

I'm willing to believe the recidivism rate is high.

I still think the presumption of innocence is important. Even if only 17% can be saved, put names and faces on those 17% and then tell me you want to mail them to Bukele's Gulag.

I disagree 100%.

If some is a member of a violent gang from Central/South America… and they come here illegally… then I DO NOT GIVE A FLYING f*ck if they intend to become legitimate honest hardworking citizens or not.

Sure… innocent until proven guilty.
BUT… we have NO obligation to take them in and give them that chance.
It’s NOT our job.

The risks exceed the potential reward.

Yes recidivism is high… but probably even higher for someone sneaking in here and living here illegally.
This person has grown up understanding that violence will get him what he wants. If he’s here undocumented then he’s likely going to struggle to get by… temptations to take short cuts will exist. Just because an undocumented person hasn’t been proven guilty of being in a gang here does NOT mean he is automatically exempt from immigration laws. He’s entered the country illegally… we can deport him. Period.


I am 1000% behind the idea of reforming our immigration policies to make it easier for people to come in a documented manner. I do NOT want undocumented aliens here. PERIOD. I can get behind laws like the “Dreamers”… especially true for people who were brought here at a young age. I can get behind expanded and easier paths to permanent residence and citizenship for hard working and law abiding people. I want to stop the flow of undocumented immigrants… and work to document or remove people already here. I’m good with amnesty programs for people who’ve been ere and been working… obviously under the right circumstances.

[Dukasaur]

Just because an undocumented person hasn’t been proven guilty of being in a gang here does NOT mean he is automatically exempt from immigration laws.

Strawman.

Nobody said they should be exempt from immigration laws.

But what you and JP have been arguing in this thread is that the urgency of getting them deported is so great that it justifies these midnight deportations with no due process.

Already at least half a dozen cases of naturalized American citizens being spirited away in this way, several cases of mistaken identity, several dozen who were legal immigrants and presumably would become citizens in due course of time, several snatched up after they had already proven their case in court, etc.

Here's a typical case: Venezuelan soccer player who came to the U.S. legally and applied for asylum through proper channels, never been accused of any crime, deported without a hearing because ICE considered his tattoos to be proof of gang membership, although there is no evidence of that other than the superficial resemblance of some of his tattoos to images on the prohibited list. Any reasonable system would at least allow a hearing to consider the evidence. Not so with Trump's "emergency". You have a tatt, it's off to the Gulag with you, before the courts open in the morning.

[bigtoughralf]

jim thinks 'the government has the legal right to do whatever it wants' is a valid defence for anything the government chooses to do though, hence being cool with all the inconsequential brown people being Guantanamo'd off onto a plan.

[mookiemcgee]

Just give it 12 months and no inconsequential brown people aren't even going to want to be here anymore, they will find being a prison guard in El Salvador pays more and offers free health care.

[jimboston]

But what you and JP have been arguing in this thread is that the urgency of getting them deported is so great that it justifies these midnight deportations with no due process.

Not true.

1) JP and I are NOT on the same page here…
2) I believe in due process. I don’t believe due process for an immigration case should take years… nor should it take months. Determine that legal status of an individual, review mitigating circumstances, then act. Period. Furthermore… if someone has violated our border and crosses illegally… then they got a date but never showed… in my mind that’s already two strikes. Once you figure out who they are, if they have done these two things I have very little sympathy.

One the specific case we were discussing, the Left has focused on the “innocent till proven guilty” mantra regarding the guy’s cartel/gang links. They ignore the REST of his case. If he’s violated our immigration laws he is eligible for deportation regardless of his relationship (or lack thereof) to any gangs.

Already at least half a dozen cases of naturalized American citizens being spirited away in this way, several cases of mistaken identity, several dozen who were legal immigrants and presumably would become citizens in due course of time, several snatched up after they had already proven their case in court, etc.

I have said I think the Administration and ICE is going to far to fast and I have pointed out a couple cases I disagree with. I will look into these links… obviously citizens should not be deported. Legal aliens can still be deported, but their cases should get more scrutiny and process than cases of illegals.

The case initially brought by the OP… I have been and will continue to defend the Admin position on that case. Students here on student visas have no legal or constitutional “right” to those visas. Come here to study… keep your fuckin opinions to yourselves when it comes to internal US politics.

Here's a typical case: Venezuelan soccer player who came to the U.S. legally and applied for asylum through proper channels, never been accused of any crime, deported without a hearing because ICE considered his tattoos to be proof of gang membership, although there is no evidence of that other than the superficial resemblance of some of his tattoos to images on the prohibited list. Any reasonable system would at least allow a hearing to consider the evidence. Not so with Trump's "emergency". You have a tatt, it's off to the Gulag with you, before the courts open in the morning.

I think we have allowed the definition of “asylum” to be expanded to ridiculous proportions over the last 20 years. It was originally offered to people from specific countries as a political tool. Now people claim ‘asylum’ because life is just hard in their home country. I really don’t care if you have little economic opportunities in your home country… I don’t care if your gov’t is corrupt… I don’t care if there is crime.

Why not stay there and work to change it… start a revolution… demand your gov’t fix the problems?

I mean yes… on a human level I care. Yes… I think we should allow for people to migrate here. We NEED immigrants.

I just think we can and should be selective and I don’t think your request for asylum should take more than a week to process.

[jimboston]

jim thinks 'the government has the legal right to do whatever it wants' is a valid defence for anything the government chooses to do though, hence being cool with all the inconsequential brown people being Guantanamo'd off onto a plan.

I mean… if you don’t have any reading comprehension I guess that’s what you might get from my post.

(Side note… jimboston is married to a “brown person” and his kids are I guess “half brown”. So yeah he must obviously be racists.)

[bigtoughralf]

Just give it 12 months and no inconsequential brown people aren't even going to want to be here anymore, they will find being a prison guard in El Salvador pays more and offers free health care.

Well, at least until Trump brings all the clothes sweatshops back to mainland USA and realises it's only the dirty immigrants who are willing to work in them.

[mookiemcgee]

Just give it 12 months and no inconsequential brown people aren't even going to want to be here anymore, they will find being a prison guard in El Salvador pays more and offers free health care.

Well, at least until Trump brings all the clothes sweatshops back to mainland USA and realises it's only the dirty immigrants who are willing to work in them.

Naw, americans are going to be so broke there will be armies of white tech bros waiting in the home depot parking lot hoping somebody picks them up

(since you aren't american I will explain the reference, home depot parking lots anywhere in the US are where you would go if you wanted to hire an 'inconsequential brown undocumented worker' for the day)

[bigtoughralf]

That'll be a sight to see. It'll be like when Victorian factory owners used to go down to the gates and pick their labourers each morning, except it'll be Chinese students picking their toilet cleaners.

[jimboston]

Just give it 12 months and no inconsequential brown people aren't even going to want to be here anymore, they will find being a prison guard in El Salvador pays more and offers free health care.

Well, at least until Trump brings all the clothes sweatshops back to mainland USA and realises it's only the dirty immigrants who are willing to work in them.

Naw, americans are going to be so broke there will be armies of white tech bros waiting in the home depot parking lot hoping somebody picks them up

(since you aren't american I will explain the reference, home depot parking lots anywhere in the US are where you would go if you wanted to hire an 'inconsequential brown undocumented worker' for the day)

I have never once seen groups of men hangin around the local Home Depot or Lowe’s parking lots (looking for jobs) anywhere near me. I believe this is a myth. If it’s not a myth it’s limited or regional in scope. I’m at my local HD regularly in the summer and never see it… I’ve visited other locations or Lowe’s also from inner city Boston all the way to the burbs. Not once. I have been there early in the morning, weekdays, weekends, afternoons, evenings… never.

[jimboston]

That'll be a sight to see. It'll be like when Victorian factory owners used to go down to the gates and pick their labourers each morning, except it'll be Chinese students picking their toilet cleaners.

Yeah… more likely to happen in the UK… with Arabs picking white Englishmen to f*ck.

[mookiemcgee]

Just give it 12 months and no inconsequential brown people aren't even going to want to be here anymore, they will find being a prison guard in El Salvador pays more and offers free health care.

Well, at least until Trump brings all the clothes sweatshops back to mainland USA and realises it's only the dirty immigrants who are willing to work in them.

Naw, americans are going to be so broke there will be armies of white tech bros waiting in the home depot parking lot hoping somebody picks them up

(since you aren't american I will explain the reference, home depot parking lots anywhere in the US are where you would go if you wanted to hire an 'inconsequential brown undocumented worker' for the day)

I have never once seen groups of men hangin around the local Home Depot or Lowe’s parking lots (looking for jobs) anywhere near me. I believe this is a myth. If it’s not a myth it’s limited or regional in scope. I’m at my local HD regularly in the summer and never see it… I’ve visited other locations or Lowe’s also from inner city Boston all the way to the burbs. Not once. I have been there early in the morning, weekdays, weekends, afternoons, evenings… never.

Say you look like a narc without saying you look like a narc.

Honestly I would not be shocked if this is less of a thing in the NE, but in CA, NV, AZ, TX it's def is still a thing, though less of a thing than it was 10-20 years ago.

[ConfederateSS]

----------The New United States 5 Million Dollar GOLD CARD!!!for U.S. Citizenship/Pathway to become a U.S. Citizen......
-----------Although already a citizen TRUMP bought one...
-----------Biden's open borders policy...20 million flock in...The U.S. Gold Card...Pay 5 million...BOOM, instant U.S. Citizenship...But it can be taken away at anytime... ......The businessman TRUMP.......Why let penniless millions in the country like Biden...That cost tax payers billions to care for...
--------- INSTEAD----Sell U.S. Citizenship for 5 million dollars....A U.S. GOLD CARD....What away to bring down the 37 Trillion dollar National Debt.....That's what makes TRUMP ...TRUMP...... ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
---------All ready 1,000 cards sold...
------------------GULF of MEXICO!!!

[ConfederateSS]

-------------There are 37 million people Worldwide that can buy one...
--------------- 37 million x 5,000,000...1.85E14= 185 Trillion...Minus The 37 Trillion National Debt....The United States of America would have...148 Trillion Dollar surplus....No Debt....Didn't cost The American Tax Payer A Penny........ ConfederateSS.out!(The Blue and Silver Rebellion)...
---------------GULF of MEXICO ....

[jusplay4fun]

Just give it 12 months and no inconsequential brown people aren't even going to want to be here anymore, they will find being a prison guard in El Salvador pays more and offers free health care.

Well, at least until Trump brings all the clothes sweatshops back to mainland USA and realises it's only the dirty immigrants who are willing to work in them.

Naw, americans are going to be so broke there will be armies of white tech bros waiting in the home depot parking lot hoping somebody picks them up

(since you aren't american I will explain the reference, home depot parking lots anywhere in the US are where you would go if you wanted to hire an 'inconsequential brown undocumented worker' for the day)

I have never once seen groups of men hangin around the local Home Depot or Lowe’s parking lots (looking for jobs) anywhere near me. I believe this is a myth. If it’s not a myth it’s limited or regional in scope. I’m at my local HD regularly in the summer and never see it… I’ve visited other locations or Lowe’s also from inner city Boston all the way to the burbs. Not once. I have been there early in the morning, weekdays, weekends, afternoons, evenings… never.

It need not be Home Depot or Lowe's. I have not seen any in my area, but I am sure they exist; I do not look for such places. And during much of the year, I go to both places often looking for plants and gardening supplies. I will look the next few times I go; I assume that Mon-Fri. at 7 am will be the best time to go look for such "hiring malls" and I RARELY go there that early. I am sure contractors go there for supplies and perhaps day workers, too.

However, while travelling out West in 2023, I saw it likely in Arizona, on our travel from Utah to the Grand Canyon. (I cannot recall exactly where we stopped for dinner that evening or was it Lunch?) It was in a shopping area parking lot near a retail area and near a main highway. A guy from NJ** pointed it out and, after looking, I witness the men, about 4-7 of them, nearly all Hispanic, looking for work, in the shade under some trees. I am not sure I saw someone hired, but it was later in the day, near the evening dinner hour or perhaps lunch. We (wife and me, with **him and his teenage son) went to the local Mexican eatery nearby. Most on our bus went to ONE place and it was overwhelmed. After our meal, I noticed that there were a few men still there, before getting on our bus to continue our travels south to the Grand Canyon.

And to the point, we have many Hispanics here where I live. I know some of them from Church and see them at our Local Food Bank/Pantry. Most, and nearly ALL, are hard-working and are good folks trying to achieve the American Dream. We have a middle-age Hispanic couple who help with the weekly feeding at my Church. Their English is much better than my Spanish. Estudié español durante cuatro años en la escuela secundaria. (Tragically, their 19 year old son was killed in a construction accident recently. But they want to help those in need.) And I just realized: no Hispanics show up for the Free meal. And this is true also before COVID and before the Return of Trump. Those who do show up are mostly middle-aged males (black and white), a few younger, but a few families with children, too. I estimate 25% or so female most evenings.

[kennyp72]

Now let’s make an interesting legal argument… what if some foreign national entered under false pretenses?

Here's another interesting legal argument... what if some foreign national was actually a cyborg assassin sent to the US by al-Qaeda to murder CEOs of fast food companies?

So foreign nationals enter the U.S. under false pretenses ALL THE TIME.
It’s just a literal fact.

I make a point using actual plausible/ realistic scenarios.
Then Ralf tries to make a joke? point? IDK what… using a science fiction scenario.

If it was a joke, Ralf, it fell flat.
If you are trying to make some point, you failed.

… but hey… you keep doing you.
You’ve still failed to make any point in this thread.

It’s kinda funny a guy from the UK lecturing us about Freedom of Speech. Meanwhile in the streets of London you can waive a Palestinian Flag all day… but try waiving the UK flag and you are likely to get arrested for causing a disturbance or being racist in some way.

You have some really bad information.

I'm shocked.

Oh? In what way was I misinformed?

Meanwhile in the streets of London...

When were you last there?